The True Believer Syndrome

[Reckless Roselia]

The term 'true believer syndrome' was coined by Keene in his book 'The Psychic Mafia'. The syndrome refers to people who continue to believe in paranormal events or phenomenons even when it has been proven to have been staged or faked.

Keene wrote "I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn't expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. ... No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie."

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As a believer I find it difficult to be a true believer. Surely believers do doubt their own beliefs once in a while - I have and continue to do. I don't follow each and every command of God so does that make me a semi believer or the sort?

[Green Eyed Lady]

I've certainly had my crisis of faith, Roselia. But since I was railing at the Heavens at the time (actually shaking my fists), obviously I never stopped believing. We are not perfect beings and we all fall short sometimes.

[roygrip]

I think our faith is tested regulary. The word being "faith" Yes (as you know Roselia) I'm a believer, but there were times in my life when I thought "How could God let this happen?" In reality it was "me" letting it happen. I think all believers (whether coined "true" or "semi" ) question their "faith" whether they admit it or not. My higher power lets things happen at his time, not my time (which is where I used to get in trouble) (lol)

Just my opinion

[Reckless Roselia]

Hey GEL and Roy, thank you for your opinions.

I sometimes feel like I'm a semi believer or that I'm not a proper believer at all because I have my own failings. If I don't follow the Holy scriptures word by word, am I not a true believer then? How many believers can surely call themselves true believers?

[Green Eyed Lady]

We all have failings, Roselia. I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

As Roy said, faith is tested often. Mine certainly has been. I remember specificially railing with raised fists and asking WHY. I realized I was waiting to somehow be transplanted from a bad situation into a good one. Sort of sitting on the couch waiting for God to DO SOMETHING. He had already done something. He had given me the tools to do exactly what I needed to do - the rest was up to me.

Having faith isn't easy sometimes. It it was, everybody would be doing it!!

[Opti]

Sept 5, 2012 8:43:55 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

The term 'true believer syndrome' was coined by Keene in his book 'The Psychic Mafia'. The syndrome refers to people who continue to believe in paranormal events or phenomenons even when it has been proven to have been staged or faked.

Keene wrote "I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn't expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. ... No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie."

---

As a believer I find it difficult to be a true believer. Surely believers do doubt their own beliefs once in a while - I have and continue to do. I don't follow each and every command of God so does that make me a semi believer or the sort?

I know this is in Religious discussion so you want us to discuss that.
I'm going to go OT anyway and say I go in stints in reading and posting on P&M because of the 'True Believers'. They are the folks that are so devoted to their version of reality, whatever it is, proof means nothing so I've tried to learn to ignore their threads but sometimes it is hard. While I think currently we have more conservative true believers than any other kind I know one of our former far left posters no longer posts here. The true believers on P&M were so convinced of their reality their number has dwindled considerably as most could not stay with in the COC or keep perceiving attacks when there weren't any.

I expect true believers in religion are similar. There are folks who are absolutely convinced that the majority of Muslims want to take over the US and turn it into an Islamic nation. They are so convinced this is true they refuse to see the reality is those Muslims who do believe it is their duty to spread Islam everywhere and some even by forced if necessary is a small but vocal segment of Muslims. Its like saying the Westboro Baptists speak for all Christians *idiom alert* for crying out loud. ;D

My goal is to remain mentally flexible and be willing to throw out entire chunks of my belief system if I find things that IMO make it wise to do so. It has made me say or do things temporarily until my new beliefs battled it out with the current ones until a new improved belief system sat in its place. I believe what I believe because of faith but also in huge part to those things that act as evidence my beliefs are right.

[Deleted]

I think if you are a thinker you have to question it. And I think that is a good thing. People of unquestioning faith are often easily manipulated to do evil things. Being thoughtful is a good defense against that kind of thing.

[Reckless Roselia]

There are folks who are absolutely convinced that the majority of Muslims want to take over the US and turn it into an Islamic nation. They are so convinced this is true they refuse to see the reality is those Muslims who do believe it is their duty to spread Islam everywhere and some even by forced if necessary is a small but vocal segment of Muslims. Its like saying the Westboro Baptists speak for all Christians *idiom alert* for crying out loud.

No kiddin' Optimist and I agree with you.

When signing up to message boards it seemed that there were many Christians wishing to convert masses to Christianity.

I wonder where the truth or lies are placed.

[Deleted]

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.".

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 9:11:35 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Hey GEL and Roy, thank you for your opinions.

I sometimes feel like I'm a semi believer or that I'm not a proper believer at all because I have my own failings. If I don't follow the Holy scriptures word by word, am I not a true believer then? How many believers can surely call themselves true believers?

Rose: There's so much more to God than the Bible. We can learn from nature and watching others. God talks to each individual in the way he/she understands. A person could wake up in the morning with an inspiration that pushes them up the mountain of holiness. Mankind puts limits on God. And rules and scourges our minds and spirits. God does not.

I'm sure you've heard'..1 step forward, 2 steps back'. This is true even in a walk to holiness. If a person has a lapse in the future, put it behind and start walking forward again. It really is simple. Mankind makes things difficult.

This information is a personal opinion garnered from life experience. Please understand I'm nor trying to tell you what to do.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 9:41:08 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I think if you are a thinker you have to question it. And I think that is a good thing. People of unquestioning faith are often easily manipulated to do evil things. Being thoughtful is a good defense against that kind of thing.

Well spoken.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 11:49:14 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.".

Straight out of Marx's writings.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 14:53:48 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 5, 2012 9:41:08 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I think if you are a thinker you have to question it. And I think that is a good thing. People of unquestioning faith are often easily manipulated to do evil things. Being thoughtful is a good defense against that kind of thing.

Well spoken.

You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.
Dr. Seuss



Straight out of Seuss's writings

[Reckless Roselia]

This information is a personal opinion garnered from life experience. Please understand I'm nor trying to tell you what to do.

Thanks lduttinger,

I'm just going through a phase where I don't understand what is right or wrong anymore and it's happened after finding MANY contradictions in the Holy Texts. I still have faith in God but my belief may not be as strong as it once was.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 14:55:21 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 5, 2012 11:49:14 GMT -5 @willingsniper said:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.".

Straight out of Marx's writings.

Thank GOD for Google!

[mmhmm]

Yes, lduttinger. The quote Willing Sniper posted is from Karl Marx.

Willing Sniper, if you're going to quote someone, or copy/paste from a site, please credit the site/originator as per our CoC. Thanks.

mmhmm, Administrator

[mmhmm]

LOL! That quote isn't so obscure as to require Googling, Willing Sniper.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 15:16:49 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

This information is a personal opinion garnered from life experience. Please understand I'm nor trying to tell you what to do.

Thanks lduttinger,

I'm just going through a phase where I don't understand what is right or wrong anymore and it's happened after finding MANY contradictions in the Holy Texts. I still have faith in God but my belief may not be as strong as it once was.

The only right thing we have to worry about is following the golden rule. Everything else falls into place. Anything else is minutia. We succeed, then we fail, then we pick ourselves up and it starts all over again. It's what life is. All the intellectual speak isn't worth a dime. It's that simple. But very difficult at the same time.

As far as scripture is concerned, the Old Testament was pretty much negated when Christ walked the earth. He changed it all with one sentence. Read my little comment under the posting box to find out what He said. We follow the 10 commandments, but Christ wrapped those up with the Golden Rule.

Just to let you know, asking God questions doesn't mean your faith isn't as strong, it means you want it to be stronger. He likes it when we use the brain He gave us.

[Reckless Roselia]

As far as scripture is concerned, the Old Testament was pretty much negated when Christ walked the earth. He changed it all with one sentence. Read my little comment under the posting box to find out what He said. We follow the 10 commandments, but Christ wrapped those up with the Golden Rule.

I do love God but it's that same God that I have questioned. At times when He didn't accept my prayers for success, I questioned His existence and I know as a believer I shouldn't have done so. I have even gone far to insulting, criticising and cursing my God but in pain and later I've apologised feeling some guilt. Perhaps God is within me too, I don't know.

I'm not a Christian but I've always had utmost respect for Jesus and have studied the Bible to a certain degree. I know Jesus did not discard the OT at all - infact he came to follow the laws before him as one Biblical verse in the NT states this.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 5, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

LOL! That quote isn't so obscure as to require Googling, Willing Sniper.

LOL. I didn't google it. I actually recognized it from memory. It;s so good to know dementia has not set in.

[mrsdutt]

ROSE: He did not discard it, He negated it. There's a lot of history in the OT. I wish you luck on your journey. You'll be fine. It's the end result that matters.

[roygrip]

Sept 5, 2012 14:50:13 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 5, 2012 9:11:35 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Hey GEL and Roy, thank you for your opinions.

I sometimes feel like I'm a semi believer or that I'm not a proper believer at all because I have my own failings. If I don't follow the Holy scriptures word by word, am I not a true believer then? How many believers can surely call themselves true believers?

Rose: There's so much more to God than the Bible. We can learn from nature and watching others. God talks to each individual in the way he/she understands. A person could wake up in the morning with an inspiration that pushes them up the mountain of holiness. Mankind puts limits on God. And rules and scourges our minds and spirits. God does not.

I'm sure you've heard'..1 step forward, 2 steps back'. This is true even in a walk to holiness. If a person has a lapse in the future, put it behind and start walking forward again. It really is simple. Mankind makes things difficult.

This information is a personal opinion garnered from life experience. Please understand I'm nor trying to tell you what to do.

:)Nice!

[mrsdutt]

Thank you ROY.

[Reckless Roselia]

I wish you luck on your journey. You'll be fine. It's the end result that matters.

Cheers, lduttinger. I am growing warm towards other 'beliefs' or thoughts etc but I feel I shall be fine. Thank you for the best wishes.

[trevorw2539]

Sept 6, 2012 6:44:25 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

ROSE: He did not discard it, He negated it. There's a lot of history in the OT. I wish you luck on your journey. You'll be fine. It's the end result that matters.

Surely Christ fulfilled the OT and its promises. He followed, commented on and used the OT in some of his parables. The vine, the shepherd etc are all taken from the OT. That's why the people accepted them, they knew what he was talking about.

Finally he celebrated the Passover, taking upon himself the OT promises associated with the Pascal Lamb.

Christians believe that the OT practises were a 'shadowing' of the reality which Christ brought.

None of the 10 commandments were negated. They were all summed up in the scripture you quoted.

When they become engaged the man makes promises to his lady friend. On marriage he does not negate those promises, but fulfils them.

God made promises, Christ fulfilled them.

That's the standard Christian view surely.

[mmhmm]

Sept 6, 2012 6:36:36 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 5, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

LOL! That quote isn't so obscure as to require Googling, Willing Sniper.

LOL. I didn't google it. I actually recognized it from memory. It;s so good to know dementia has not set in.

*giggle* I felt the same way, lduttinger. I'm 70, so when I actually recognize and remember something without having to look it up I always heave a big sigh of relief! ;D

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2012 8:51:47 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I've certainly had my crisis of faith, Roselia. But since I was railing at the Heavens at the time (actually shaking my fists), obviously I never stopped believing. We are not perfect beings and we all fall short sometimes.

When I think about the term True Believer for some reason I think of the various cult/religious groups where people have killed themselves to signify their ultimate true belief.

True belief to me requires fact and logic first in order to be proved believable.

[Reckless Roselia]

Christ, am I the only young gun here? ;D

My granny is diagnosed with Alzheimer's and she's in her 70s.

[mmhmm]

I'm sorry about your granny, Roselia. Alzheimer's is a rough row to hoe. My mother is 91 and still, thankfully, pretty darned sharp. My dad, however, was severely demented (vascular dementia, not Alzheimer's) by the time of his death. Any dementia takes a toll on the sufferer as well as the family.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2012 12:09:05 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm sorry about your granny, Roselia. Alzheimer's is a rough row to hoe. My mother is 91 and still, thankfully, pretty darned sharp. My dad, however, was severely demented (vascular dementia, not Alzheimer's) by the time of his death. Any dementia takes a toll on the sufferer as well as the family.

So true.