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[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Thanks for the info yclept. If you click the link that I posted to the site. It's about half way down. It's defiantly in there. I was just looking around for new tech in the are because Bruce brought up a good point about wind farms.

[yclept]

I didn't mean to get overly critical. I just remembered all the hype ten years ago about superconductors and in particular SCON, and it got me all wound up! I don't know whether it did so because I never believed in SCON, never owned it, and thus missed the incredible ride up, or if it was that I never believed in SCON but wasn't smart enough to short at the top (assuming one could have predicted the top).
Thanks for the ongoing information regarding potential investment instruments for possible emerging technologies.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I didn't take as being critical at all. I appreciate any knowledge that someone is willing to share! Np as far as the info goes. This is the way of the future to me right here.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Hawaiian Electric completed there first test of using 100% bio diesel to power turbines. Now..

Hawaiian Electric Soliciting Biodiesel Supply Bids
www2.counton2.com/business/2011/feb/01/hawaiian-electric-soliciting-biodiesel-supply-bids-ar-1412103/

Thoughts??

[yclept]

I read that link from the other thread. I found it curious that the biofuel was palm oil and a palm oil byproduct. I thought that was pretty strange, since Hawaii doesn't grow oil palms, so the fuel was imported (probably from Indonesia where oil palm cultivation has become a major environmental and social problem due to replacing rain forest and subsistence farmers with palm oil plantations). The plantations offer all the usual problems of monoculture and oil palms deplete the soil and cause massive erosion where the rain forest alleviated those types of problems. Then I should think the fact that tankers (burning bunker C) have to carry it across the Pacific should be taken into consideration. Diesel (which the palm oil is replacing) could at least be brought from the US which is a bit closer than Indonesia.

This whole thing looked to me like a public relations "feel green" experiment. It's the wrong answer to a problem (at least as it's being implemented in this case). It's bullshit.
mangroveactionproject.org/news/action-alerts/palm-oil-for-power-station-in-hawaii-threatens-forests-and-communities
www.energyrefuge.com/blog/ngo-raises-concerns-over-palm-oil-supply-to-hawaii-utility/

Hawaii should be using local agricultural biomass (they still grow some sugarcane), and concentrating on wind, photovoltaic, and wave power generation. On the big island they could add hydroelectric and geothermal to the mix. I mean really, they've got an active volcano, and they're surrounded by an ocean! Can't they find a hot rock, a pump, and a steam turbine lying around somewhere?

Palm oil, my arse! I don't mean to seem to be continually throwing cold water on these ideas, but this one is a loser. There's something political going on here, and nothing that's environmentally or economically sensible or helpful.

Edit: A gas turbine can burn about anything that can be gasified (read smoke). It doesn't need to have a liquid fuel. On Oahu Kudzu has become a major problem, strangling many of the native threes. They could send everyone out stripping the Kudzu, throw it into a big retort and feed the smoke into their gas turbine -- why within a week they'd be rid of their Kudzu problem and would have generated enough power to each have a cold beer when they got home. I suspect this palm oil insanity is primarily going on on Oahu and maybe Maui, as the other islands couldn't consume 90MW if they tried.
geography.about.com/library/misc/uckudzu.htm

Kudzu Pueraria montana var. lobata
This amazing plant, native to Japan, was introduced into North America as an ornamental vine in 1876. Today, with its large leaves, attractive flowers, and large fleshy roots, the vine is well established all over the sourtheast west to Texas, and north all the way to Kansas. It is so rampant, it quickly covers nearby plants and smothers them to death, and has been known to invade whole forest areas, climbing tall trees and often eradicating them in the process. This species is one that is rampant here because it grows without its natural insect predators. Projects to reduce its spread are underway with hope of importing the correct insect species from Japan.

Here's another idea. The Humpbacks still migrate to Hawaiian waters. We could get a fleet of whalers out there and gather up a bunch of those devils, render to oil -- bring 'em into Lahaina (to re-live the historic aspect) and throw that oil into the gas turbines. It'll save having to tank all that palm oil all the way across the Pacific.

Lili'uokalani would be so proud of me for having thought of that (if she was still among the quick).

[yclept]

I've gotten all wound up over this palm oil thing, but I might as well get the rest of it off my chest. Palm oil is a food; it's used as a cooking oil and an additive in many baked goods. It's highly saturated, and that's not such a good thing for cholesterol-wary Americans, but in a place like Bangladesh where any calorie is a good calorie, it's not a concern. Bangladesh is a rock's-throw away from Indonesia and Malaysia and needs items like palm oil to try to stave-off starvation.
So now, according to this plan, huge tanker loads of palm oil are going to be shipped to Hawaii to make bio-diesel for electric generation. That's a stupid as the corn-to-ethanol "industry" in the US.
What Hawaiian Electric should do is send a few dozen decals to each of its customers and advise them to stick one on every light switch and outlet. The decal would show one of those emaciated kids, pictures of whom we've all seen, big sunken eyes, skin stretched tight over every bone, swollen belly, flies crawling in and out of eyes, nose and mouth. The legend on the decal would read: "Go ahead, turn on the light, kill this kid."

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Hawaii should be using local agricultural biomass (they still grow some sugarcane), and concentrating on wind, photovoltaic, and wave power generation. On the big island they could add hydroelectric and geothermal to the mix. I mean really, they've got an active volcano, and they're surrounded by an ocean! Can't they find a hot rock, a pump, and a steam turbine lying around somewhere?

I agree 100%. You aren't trowing water on anything! Ideas are what has got us to where we are!! Thank you for the info..

I hear you about the ethanol corn business, and I also agree 1000% that the palm oil would be better suited feeding starving people in the third world!

I found this today. Some interesting stuff.

Ethanol, the Next Generation: Why Corn Is Out and Cellulose Is In:
www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/ethanol-fuel-the-next-generation-why-corn-is-out-and-cellulose/19821242/

[tyfighter3]

I would think that Sugar Beets would be a good replacement for corn for Ethanol production.

[yclept]

Sugar beets are still a food source. How about algae, Switchgrass, corn stalks, pomace, and any of a myriad of other agricultural by-products that could first be fermented and then composted? I'm not that keen on ethanol in any case. It has a relatively low energy content per volume. Better would be to forget the fermentation and just heat all this kind of stuff in a solar or geothermal (or for that matter any waste-heat source) retort to extract the oils that can be converted to biodiesel.

Switchgrass excerpt from Wikipedia: Switchgrass has been researched as a renewable bioenergy crop since the mid-1980s, because it is a native perennial warm season grass with the ability to produce moderate to high yields on marginal farmlands. It is now being considered for use in several bioenergy conversion processes, including cellulosic ethanol production, biogas, and direct combustion for thermal energy applications. The main agronomic advantages of switchgrass as a bioenergy crop are its stand longevity, drought and flooding tolerance, relatively low herbicide and fertilizer input requirements, ease of management, hardiness in poor soil and climate conditions, and widespread adaptability in temperate climates. In some warm humid southern zones, such as Alabama, it has the ability to produce up to 25 oven-dry tonnes per hectare (ODT/ha). A summary of switchgrass yields across 13 research trial sites in the United States found the top two cultivars in each trial to yield 9.4 to 22.9 t/ha, with an average yield of 14.6 ODT/ha.[14] However, these yields were recorded on small plot trials, and commercial field sites could be expected to be at least 20% lower than these results. In the United States, switchgrass yields appear to be highest in warm humid regions with long growing seasons such as the US Southeast and lowest in the dry short season areas of the Northern Great Plains.[14] The energy inputs required to grow switchgrass are favorable when compared with annual seed bearing crops such as corn, soybean, or canola, which can require relatively high energy inputs for field operations, crop drying, and fertilization. Whole plant herbaceous perennial C4 grass feedstocks are desirable biomass energy feedstocks, as they require fewer fossil energy inputs to grow and effectively capture solar energy because of their C4 photosynthetic system and perennial nature. One study cites it takes from 0.97 to 1.34 GJ to produce 1 tonne of switchgrass, compared with 1.99 to 2.66 GJ to produce 1 tonne of corn.[15] Another study found that switchgrass uses 0.8 GJ/ODT of fossil energy compared to grain corn's 2.9 GJ/ODT.[16] Given that switchgrass contains approximately 18.8 GJ/ODT of biomass, the energy output-to-input ratio for the crop can be up to 20:1.[17] This highly favorable ratio is attributable to its relatively high energy output per hectare and low energy inputs for production.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I really like the idea of algae, as well as, using by-products. The info on switchgrass is cool. I read an article about beet juice that was being thrown away, they are trying it as a de-icer in Montreal, with great success. I have read about this company in a couple different places. Could be something to look at.. www.bioxcorp.com/