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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 15:40:39 GMT -5
I have a friend that's cheated off and on throughout her marriage. She knows I don't understand it and I don't "approve" of it. I told her years ago not to ever use me as an alibi and she agreed. I did get on her once because she told me she had the guy at her house. I was appalled and let her know how wrong she was. If she ever did it again, she never told me about it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 15:44:43 GMT -5
Pink, I told my friend not to ever try to use me as an alibi again too. I just couldn't believe she thought I would lie for her. I knew her husband. He was always really nice to me. I wasn't going to lie to him for her.
What really ended up turning out bad about her affair was that the guy was friends with my neighbor. I saw him there one day when my daughter was playing with their daughter. I said Hi and when they asked how we knew each other I spoke up and said he went to HS with one of my friends...which was the truth. I just left out the "he is screwing my friend part." Anyway, they then thought I was having an affair with him...they told his wife...she ended up leaving him...and I didn't even do anything. It was all fubar and I wanted no part of it!
My friend and I did get together a few times after she ended the affair...but it wasn't the same.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 14, 2012 15:48:13 GMT -5
He didn't consider it cheating. He was probably pissed you didn't bring her home!!
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 14, 2012 15:50:21 GMT -5
We just finished watching "The League" and I'm pretty sure in every episode one of them noted how much they hate their friends. My husband and I have actually started questioning how much we really like our friends. So, the moral of the story is that our friends can do whatever they want, and either we choose to continue to hang out with them because they still bring us amusement, or we stop hanging out with them because we are no longer amused. So, did you decide how much you really like your friends? I laugh at this because I have this one friend who makes me crazy with what I consider to be dumb decisions she makes! CRAZY! And I'll gossip with my sweetie about them. But we're still besties - probably because she continues to amuse me.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2012 15:52:07 GMT -5
Hadn't really realized it until you asked the question, but it made me reflect and realize that for me, it's obviously destructive drinking. Two instances come to mind in the past 4-5 years.
Friend 1 - I really enjoyed this woman and was happy to meet her when we first moved back to Florida. She's fun, witty, smart and I just like her. Her BF at the time was even funnier and together, they were the life of the party. Unfortunately, it quickly became apparent they either were, or were well on their way to becoming, raging alcoholics. There were days they were too hung over to work, they told stories about driving drunk, he wrecked a car when drinking, etc. One of my best friends in Arizona had become an alcoholic and I knew how painful it would be to watch, so I made a conscious choice to distance myself from this woman in Florida, even though I liked her and would have liked to have been close friends. I know she was hurt and I also missed her.
Friend 2 - Part of a group I'm close with, this woman seemed to have no concern about hurting other people and would regularly drink and drive, even when other alternatives were readily available. One night, she was so drunk, she couldn't even really tell which car was hers and was stumbling around pushing her remote control hoping to set the alarm off so she'd know which car was hers. After several of us had a long talk with her and a short attempt to put her into one of our cars, she kicked one of my friends, swore and tripped away to drive home. Bye bye - good riddance. Won't go out with her any more. Can't imagine how she and anyone else with her that fails to stop her will feel when she finally kills someone. I don't want to be part of it.
Other than that, there's a pretty broad range of behaviour that I don't really care too much about as long as it doesn't hurt me or others.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 14, 2012 16:02:06 GMT -5
The only big instance of this was a woman I used to consider a friend at my last job. She was married with 3 kids and slept with the facility manager (also married). She used their relationship to her advantage - reassigning her work to the facility admins, rolling in to work about noon, taking unauthorized days off, etc. When he dumped her she moved on to a regional director, traveling on the company dime and on the time clock to hook up with him. That broke up when one of his direct reports turned them into corporate HR.
It wouldn't have done any good to confront her. I really think she was a psychopath, ready to do whatever benefited her, oblivious to how it impacted anyone around her. I also discovered she was an alcoholic (on one infamous occasion she drank 10 screwdrivers at a company golf outing and then drove her car home through rush hour traffic). I distanced myself from her and when I left the company I haven't tried to stay in contact. She doesn't care what I think, and I don't care to be friends with someone like her.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 16:03:38 GMT -5
Anyway, she ended up going back to her husband and kind of cooling her friendship with me. That was fine with me. I wasn't willing to lie to her husband for her. It's kind of interesting to me how many people would stay silent "unless someone is in danger of imminent harm." What if your friend is making a choice that is clearly harming them or someone else in some way other than physical?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2012 16:12:03 GMT -5
To get away from cheating for a moment, just to remind people that there is a whole bunch of other colors in the feel-bad rainbow; I'm going to interpret wrong as "bad for the future" rather than "morally".
DW, over the years has made some choices regarding school and employment that I was not only vehemently opposed to (on the grounds that they were basically selling herself short) but I was very negatively affected by (in terms of decreased earnings coming into the household). I respected that they were her mistakes to make, and I didn't try to control her in that sense. I offered my opinion when asked. I even tried to relate the possible long term consequences as they related to OUR future.
Guess what... she didn't want to hear it. With her (and many like her), the second they feel "preached to", they make it their missions to "prove you wrong".
The results of many of these choices did come home to roost. She sees now that she could have made better choices. Oh well...
ETA: I had this typed out, but was interrupted before I could push submit. I see some new replies have addressed similar situations.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2012 16:14:00 GMT -5
Anyway, she ended up going back to her husband and kind of cooling her friendship with me. That was fine with me. I wasn't willing to lie to her husband for her. It's kind of interesting to me how many people would stay silent "unless someone is in danger of imminent harm." What if your friend is making a choice that is clearly harming them or someone else in some way other than physical? Tough one. I tend to think consenting adults get to make their own choices and it's none of my business, but I'm sure you could come up with some examples where I'd consider becoming involved. For example, with the drunk lady in my second example, I was not a designated driver so was a little tipsy myself and going home with a sober friend. Had I been sober, I probably would have tried to wrestle drunk lady's key's from her, knowing full well that would end any friendship and probably make me unwelcome in the group from there on out. As for talking to someone or otherwise interfering in a nonphysical situation, at least part of the decision would be based on how likely I thought it was that my interference would actually change anything. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I don't think many people change based on a good talking to - especially one they haven't sought out - so they're unlikely to change and it's not worth wasting your time and blowing up the relationship.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2012 16:16:44 GMT -5
It's kind of interesting to me how many people would stay silent "unless someone is in danger of imminent harm." What if your friend is making a choice that is clearly harming them or someone else in some way other than physical? How often are you actually going to change someone's behavior? People make bad decisions all the time, and it seems like most of us make the same bad decision over and over again until we finally (if ever) learn our lesson. Making myself a part of their drama almost never changes anything so there really isn't any point in getting involved imo. If I had a friend having an affair, and I knew that they were concerned about an std, in that case I would probably say "you tell your spouse or I will".
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2012 16:20:04 GMT -5
"you tell your spouse or I will". Wow, I'm thinking about this convo and how incredibly awkward that would be.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2012 16:22:21 GMT -5
...:::"Had I been sober, I probably would have tried to wrestle drunk lady's key's from her, knowing full well that would end any friendship and probably make me unwelcome in the group from there on out.":::...
In a way, this is a perfect illustration of what I was saying. Most rational people know that drunk driving has the potential for disaster, and would be giving up their keys long before having to have them wrestled from their hands. At the very least, most rational people would agree that cars should not be operated by the inebriated.
But those who are so deep in it, become very determined to prove you wrong. It is so sad that wrestling the keys from that persons hand would have had to end the friendship.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2012 16:23:13 GMT -5
"you tell your spouse or I will". Wow, I'm thinking about this convo and how incredibly awkward that would be. Totally grasping at straws. Its the only non-abusive situation that I can see myself being willing to get even remotely involved in since that is something I would want someone to do for me.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 14, 2012 16:25:54 GMT -5
yeah, pretty much exactly what Milee said. I have friends that have made some decisions that I would consider pretty dumb. But they are grown adults who knew their options and came to those decisions on their own accord. Once they've told you what their decision is, telling them you think it's dumb or wrong is pointless and rude. I do have a friend who has been going through a pretty rough time and if she tells me that she is miserable I might try a leading question like "do you think you'd be happier if you tried blah blah blah?" (fyi - It STILL doesn't go well, but what the hell?)
Now, the dumb decisions I am referring to are job and interpersonal relationship related. I fortunately don't have friends who make terrible criminal decisions or anything. That would be an entirely different story.
But really, whether it's going to cause "harm" is a pretty subjective position to take. Skipping a class, picking the wrong job, dating the dumb guy, even cheating - these all have the potential for some future "harm", but grown adults know those consequences going in.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 16:29:19 GMT -5
Getting back to cheating for a minute - for those who say they wouldn't get involved or express their opinion, would your opinion change if you were equally good friends with both spouses?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 14, 2012 16:33:13 GMT -5
MM, I consider that less of a "terrible criminal choice" and more of an "alternate career path", so no worries. Clearly, my moral compass is way the fuck off though, so you may want to consider second opinions. or just buy me an extra ski mask. I hear black is slimming.
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northdakotanice
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Post by northdakotanice on Aug 14, 2012 16:34:45 GMT -5
A few years back, my BFF from college started a relationship with a married man. It was right around the time that my BFF from high school was going through a divorce due to her husband's cheating. It was an awful time for my high school friend and her family. BFF from college was aware of the situation and the emotional turmoil the affair had caused. The man she had taken up with had a wife and small children. After several conversations about why I thought she SHOULD NOT be seeing a married man, I finally had to tell her: I love you, I think you're a great person, but I cannot support you in this relationship. From that point on I would no longer discuss him with her. It was very difficult on our friendship, and for a while I lost a lot of respect for her. I was totally there for her when, as I expected, he refused to leave his wife for her.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 16:45:38 GMT -5
I love you, I think you're a great person, but I cannot support you in this relationship. From that point on I would no longer discuss him with her. It was very difficult on our friendship, and for a while I lost a lot of respect for her.
So this brings up kind of an interesting point to me. Are your friends entitled to your support whether or not you agree with what they're doing? From some of the responses on this thread, it would certainly seem so. Yet I don't think that's true.
If my friends have a moral issue with something I'm doing, I think they're well within their rights to say "I don't want to hear about this" or "I can't get behind this choice so please don't expect me to support it or get involved in any way." Yet for some of you, it sounds like you feel you'd be way out of line in saying something like that to a friend if you disapproved of their choice.
True?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2012 16:46:27 GMT -5
...:::"Sweet! I have a partner in crime! and I like to consider myself "morally casual"...":::...
I'll bring the Tequila. Unlike black, however, it is NOT slimming.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2012 16:47:22 GMT -5
...:::"Getting back to cheating for a minute - for those who say they wouldn't get involved or express their opinion, would your opinion change if you were equally good friends with both spouses?":::...
Why does this question have to be restricted to cheating?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 16:47:59 GMT -5
For example, let's say (JUST PRETEND HYPOTHETICALLY HERE) that you are opposed to abortion. Your friend asks you for a ride to the clinic. Do you say yes because you feel obligated to "support" her even though you don't agree with her choice?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 16:48:50 GMT -5
...:::"Getting back to cheating for a minute - for those who say they wouldn't get involved or express their opinion, would your opinion change if you were equally good friends with both spouses?":::... Why does this question have to be restricted to cheating? It doesn't, it just seems to be the go-to example of something that many people feel is squicky/morally questionable but don't feel like they can damage the friendship by saying they feel that way to their friend's face. And I think it is the hypothetical that most people can relate to most closely.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 14, 2012 16:51:54 GMT -5
...fwiw, most of my friendships are a two way street... they have the right to approach/confront me about stuff... and I have the right to approach/confront them... I do exercise a different tact with friendly acquaintenances...
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2012 16:53:49 GMT -5
So this brings up kind of an interesting point to me. Are your friends entitled to your support whether or not you agree with what they're doing? From some of the responses on this thread, it would certainly seem so. Yet I don't think that's true. If my friends have a moral issue with something I'm doing, I think they're well within their rights to say "I don't want to hear about this" or "I can't get behind this choice so please don't expect me to support it or get involved in any way." Yet for some of you, it sounds like you feel you'd be way out of line in saying something like that to a friend if you disapproved of their choice. True? This may just be because I'm older and the type of friendships I have has changed as I age, but I think the answer is yes. Honestly, as I get older, I have fewer and fewer really close friends, the kind of friends who would disclose an abortion or crime. For the handful of people who I'm close enough that we'd discuss those things, they are close enough friends to me that I would stifle my objections and support them if they needed it, no matter how much I disagreed with that decision. Because if they're that close a friend, they have many, many other wonderful qualities and I am willing to understand that we're all human. For the larger number of people I interact with and are casual friends, most of us wouldn't discuss a crime, for example. If one did, it would be mentioned in a relatively oblique way to test the waters and the other person could indicate willingness to discuss through her reaction. If there's support, you indicate by talking about it; if there's no support, you indicate by smiling, pretending you didn't understand the reference and moving to the next subject.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2012 16:57:13 GMT -5
Added - for example, my best friend in Arizona that turned into an alcoholic, I supported her through 2 rehabs, a suicide attempt, divorce, job loss, etc. She was my friend and I was there for her.
I remember the saddest I ever was for her was one Thanksgiving when she called me midafternoon too drunk to make dinner. Her husband had left her and it was just her and her 2 preteen kids. My family had already eaten or I would have just had everyone over. I didn't want her kids to miss Thanksgiving, so I went over and took them all out. By the time she was sober enough to go, it was late and we ended up eating (and causing a bit of a scene) at a Denny's in Gilbert. I still hurt for her kids and how hard that all was for them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 17:03:59 GMT -5
For the handful of people who I'm close enough that we'd discuss those things, they are close enough friends to me that I would stifle my objections and support them if they needed it, no matter how much I disagreed with that decision.
Interesting, milee... for me, being that close with someone means that we both have not only the right but the obligation to be honest with each other about this stuff.
I'd actually be offended if I found out that a very close friend of mine was deeply morally opposed to something I had done and didn't say anything to me for fear of offending me, haha. I expect my friends to trust me enough to know that they can say what they really think and I'm not going to run away or get pissed at them. And in turn, I need to know that I can be honest with them. That's just how my close friendships work. YMMV, I guess.
I'd never bother commenting on the morality of the choices my casual friends or acquaintances make. Even for close friends it's a tough call.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 17:05:58 GMT -5
Depends on the issue. I may not agree with cheating, but that is not my business, however, if you are harming someone or keeping others from rights you enjoy, then we will not longer be friends. And I am with Dark that abusers should be hurt before the cops called.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2012 17:09:51 GMT -5
...:::"It may not be slimming.. but tequila does make me lean... usually up against the bar to avoid falling over...":::...
You can lean on me and I'll prop you up (I KNEW there had to be a benefit to staying sober).
Doubly so if you wear that black dress in your avatar.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2012 17:12:32 GMT -5
I do not approve of WWBG getting MM drunk when she is wearing that dress
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 14, 2012 17:14:59 GMT -5
Depends on the issue. I may not agree with cheating, but that is not my business, however, if you are harming someone or keeping others from rights you enjoy, then we will not longer be friends. Yep. They're not going to listen to you . . . fade away and find some other friends . . .
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