hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 13, 2012 17:27:36 GMT -5
You realize what I said was agreeing with Dark though right?
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 13, 2012 17:29:30 GMT -5
Yes, and all I ever quoted was federal law. What I said still stands. Under federal law you cannot get traction to sue solely for age discrimination until you hit 40. That is all.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 13, 2012 17:31:07 GMT -5
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 13, 2012 17:33:02 GMT -5
Yes, and all I ever quoted was federal law. What I said still stands. Under federal law you cannot get traction to sue solely for age discrimination until you hit 40. That is all. No you didn't, you said "The legal definition of Age Discrimination in the workplace is limited to those 40 and over". And that's not accurate. Notwithstanding that it's not what this thread is even about.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 13, 2012 17:34:47 GMT -5
Yes, and all I ever quoted was federal law. What I said still stands. Under federal law you cannot get traction to sue solely for age discrimination until you hit 40. That is all. No you didn't, you said "The legal definition of Age Discrimination in the workplace is limited to those 40 and over". And that's not accurate. Notwithstanding that it's not what this thread is even about. And what I quoted was EEOC regs. In my mind, that means federal. And you're right, I guess it became apparent that's not even what Phoenix had in mind . . .
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 13, 2012 17:39:09 GMT -5
You're really going to dig in your heels and make me go back and directly quote all your posts that were wrong?
Fine.
No it's really really really not. There are states that have laws on the books specifically to protect workers under 30. There are like 50 free legal dictionaries online, they'll all tell you that the legal definition of age discrimination is discriminating based on the victims age. Can apply to old people, young people, middle age people, whoever.
Wrong again. There are laws, you know those things we base court cases on, that protect young workers from age discrimination. Legally a company in Oregon that screws over a young worker just because they're young, will get their asses handed to them in court. Cause it's freaking illegal there.
Repeat it as many times as you want, you're still wrong.
Oh, now we're just talking federally. How convenient. At this point I could link you to the appellate court cases that have ruled in favor of the plaintiff in reverse age discrimination cases, and the minority supreme court opinion that felt they had a case under the ADEA, but you're obviously not going to bother reading them, so what's the point?
I will grant you that none of them have won at the Supreme Court level... yet.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 13, 2012 17:40:32 GMT -5
And back to what Phoenix wanted to talk about . . .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 17:40:50 GMT -5
So, to Phoenix's question... I think I have been underestimated because of my youth, but I can't say I experienced any discrimination.
I had one position where it became apparent I would never be promoted around my supervisor, and her career wasn't going anywhere. I think that was mostly about their commitment to the pecking order rather than her being a little bit older than me. So, it became time to move on.
Alas, I'm not as young as I once was, so I think my risk of discrimination is going way down for a while. I'll report back when I get to be old.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 17:56:06 GMT -5
I hate to mention teaching (LOL), but I think it is one of the few professions where age (equated with maturity) is valued a lot even if you are just beginning. Today, the administration was introducing the new teachers, and only two of 28 were "new to the profession" as in this was their first teaching job. Telling is the fact that they were both math teachers, an area with a shortage. The rest weren't "old" (we have a relatively young faculty), but most were in their 30s or 40s.
I was 48 when I got this position. I had been teaching in private schools (which some public schools don't like). I have friends who got divorced and had been teaching nowhere for the past twenty years. The education profession values age/maturity.
But then the younger generation does some dumb stuff. I am not talking about dumb work stuff. I am talking about understanding that teachers live in a fishbowl. One of our younger teachers several years ago pulled a picture of her funneling beer up for all her students to see. Maybe she won a contest or something? She left that same day.
Older teachers respond like what one 40-something teacher said today. The faculty all just got Ipads. Someone asked about loading personal stuff. He said, "These Ipads are the school's property. Picture the superintendent asking to see what is on your Ipad. Put stuff on it that you won't mind him seeing." It doesn't mean that we can't load anything personal on it . . . we have to pay for Apps ourself. But don't put anything on there that would make you hesitate to hand it over.
Maturity matters. It isn't a number, but age is an easy way to guess at it.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 13, 2012 18:01:01 GMT -5
I have seen, but not experienced, what Phoenix and Dark mentioned - the "you kids don't know squat" mentality. My boss and most of my coworkers fall into the "protected" class, but I've been fortunate in that they give me a lot of (at times, undeserved) credit and big opportunities despite my relative inexperience. And they don't make me feel like an idiot for not knowing something. In return, I show them how to use Excel and Twitter. I think working with a wide range of ages is best. Most of my older coworkers are amazingly intelligent and wise. And our 22yo interns are full of ideas and enthusiasm. I wouldn't want to work with all 25yos or all 65yos. (Is THAT discriminatory?)
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 13, 2012 18:20:27 GMT -5
"I wouldn't want to work with all 25yos or all 65yos. (Is THAT discriminatory?)" Yes but we'll let it slide just this once..... biggot
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jitterbug
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Post by jitterbug on Aug 13, 2012 19:07:12 GMT -5
I was 40 and went to work for a new, start-up company in the financial industry. My boss was 30. I came to them with experience in many areas, but was made to feel like a dinosaur -at 40!! I really don't think I tried to do much of that "back in my day" type of stuff - but I DID know things!! In one of my reviews, I was marked down because I needed to use technology more. Umm...my whole day was spent on a computer, so I asked for an example. After thinking a little bit, he came up with "sometimes you use paper and pencil instead of the computer." That was such a stupid answer, it just makes me laugh to think about it! Ten years later, I now work somewhere else where almost everyone graduated within a year or two of me and I get a lot more respect!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Aug 13, 2012 19:19:44 GMT -5
OK, Dark, this is from your link - I have no dog in your fight with KittenSaver, but you might want to check your info before insulting her...
A group of about 200 workers in their 40s sued, claiming they are protected by the age discrimination law and that the company "pulled the rug out" from under them.
Lena
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 13, 2012 19:32:21 GMT -5
Oops... guess I should have skimmed the article before posting it. That'll teach me to get lazy with google searches. In that case they were over 40, but not 50 and claiming they got a worse retirement deal and weren't grandfathered in like the folks over 50 so it was age discrimination.
And I wasn't trying to insult KittenSaver, just trying to point out inaccuracies that she was posting as fact.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Aug 13, 2012 22:02:02 GMT -5
I think it is more of a problem for older folks that are out of work than for the young. Once unemployed it takes them considerably longer to find a new job. In February 2010, workers aged 55 years and older had an average duration of joblessness of 35.5 weeks (not seasonally adjusted), compared with 23.3 weeks for those aged 16 to 24 years and 30.3 weeks for those aged 25 to 54 years. www.bls.gov/opub/ils/summary_10_04/older_workers.htm____________________________________ ETA: I am up past my bed time and didnt notice how out of date those numbers were. They are much higher now. However still have the same trend of older workers staying unemployed longer. duration of unemployment for the older unemployed rose from 54.1 weeks to 55.7 weeks in March. For younger jobseekers, average duration of unemployment rose from 36.5 weeks to 37.3 weeks. www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/research/public_policy_institute/econ_sec/2012/The-Employment-Situation-March-2012-AARP-ppi-econ-sec.pdf
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 7:21:35 GMT -5
I'm 59 and, after a 3rd interview with a local company, they've told me to expect an offer within the week as long as there were "no red flags" in the feedback from the 4 guys I talked to yesterday! This warms my heart. I'm not saying that age discrimination doesn't exist- it does. What worked in my case: I informed them that I was glad they participate in the local corporate athletic games because I'd sign up for the 200 meter freestyle, the mile and half-mile runs and the sprint triathlon. I dressed in well-made business clothes, I got in through my network- a former co-worker will be my boss. I've got silver hair and a plastic surgeon would have a field day with the lines on my face, so I couldn't look 40 if I tried.
Oh, yes- I'll have lots of very bright young people reporting to me and they can run circles around me when it comes to formulas and macro coding. I'm going to stay out of their way in those areas, teach them the business, and give their work general reasonability tests so it makes sense when it goes to the client.
I do think my current company is going to be very surprised. They've been very supportive as I looked at internal positions but I don't think they're expecting this. ;D
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 14, 2012 9:11:23 GMT -5
I know Home Depot tried this, they got rid of their 'seasoned' employees with actual home improvement knowledge and brought in young kids with no particular home improvement skills who were both much cheaper and mostly part time employees. Customer service satisfaction levels plunged, people complained that they couldn't find sales help in the store, or that the sales people were indifferent or unable to help them. So the company's cost cutting measures backfired. I don't know if this was age discrimination so much as just clearing out the full time, more highly skilled employees who happened to be older and replacing them with unskilled part time labor.
We did have a case here at work where a manager was sort of forced out, he was 67 years old and did NOT want to leave. He was one of these guys who thinks the company won't run without him, plus I think he realized after 50 years of working from 5 AM to 9 PM at night, he had no life outside work and would probably die within a year of retiring. Unfortunately he had a lot of archaic business ideas and many of the mid level manager threatened to leave if he didn't move on, and finally upper management gently guided him out the door. I'm sure he got a nice golden parachute though.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 16, 2012 8:28:51 GMT -5
I never encountered age discrimination until I interviewed for Wells Fargo. A very young woman dressed totally wrong for an interview and also arrived very late, showed up giggling and tee heeing like she was drunk or high. But the interviewer was a young man and bingo, she got the job! I have a sore spot for them now and wish nothing but bad luck to them. The branch manager who told me to interview for the job because she wanted me to work for her was shocked when I told her what happened. Then afraid I would sue, I'm sure.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 16, 2012 10:19:55 GMT -5
Age discrimination should cover all ages, not just oldies. But a lot of employers like to have the right to push around young people.
I can see both sides of this one. Yes, it's good to have new blood and a lot of young people are really sharp. So you shouldn't make assumptions.
On the other hand, maturity doesn't come automatically with age and you can get some *incredibly* entitled, snotty kids with poor work ethics these days if you're not careful. A lot of times, kids straight out of college expect these fantastic high-paying jobs to simply land in their laps - and, should they get them, they sometimes assume that they know how the job should be done better than the people training them.
Now, the job may or may not need to be updated - there may or may not be faster and more efficient ways to perform certain duties. New blood can definitely help highlight those areas. But it's never good to assume going into a new career that you know more than the people who have been doing it for 20-40 years, and I have seen that happen more than once.
That being said, DH has definitely had to deal with age discrimination. He started working in the grocery business as a teenager, and he was good at it, so naturally by the time he was in his early twenties he'd worked his way up to management roles in several different stores and was regularly running a team comprised of people twice his age or more. (This is past tense because he recently switched careers, by the way.)
DH is *incredibly* easy to get along with, and in my not-at-all biased opinion, he was a good person to have as a boss. He always looked out for his team and made sure that things were fair for them, and he worked hard to ensure that they got their bonuses (which often came out of his bonuses).
But he definitely had people on his team who had problems with his age. No matter what he did, there were guys (for some reason always guys) who just couldn't deal with the fact that he was so young and had responsibility over them. And I get why it would be awkward but if the boss is doing a good job, the age shouldn't make THAT big of a difference.
Then you had the younger people, the teenagers, who would try to take advantage of DH's age (combined with his easygoing nature) to avoid doing work. They figured that since he was young enough to be someone they could see themselves partying with, he would turn a blind eye to them coming in late or stoned or whatever. That was hard on him too.
So like I said, I can see both sides of this issue.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 16, 2012 10:24:51 GMT -5
Repeat it as many times as you want, you're still wrong. Nobody's being insulting or argumentative here!!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 16, 2012 10:31:12 GMT -5
I've been fortunate in that they give me a lot of (at times, undeserved) credit and big opportunities despite my relative inexperience. And they don't make me feel like an idiot for not knowing something.It's probably on account of your red hair and 2 Kinsey score
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 16, 2012 10:52:47 GMT -5
;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2012 10:58:23 GMT -5
I think i have seen age discrimination in both directions. Some where older workers are treated poorly and younger workers treated poorly.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 16, 2012 11:03:42 GMT -5
The good news is that if you are young, you can wait a few years, and it will be over. The bad news is if you are old, the discrimination is just going to get worse and worse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2012 11:05:39 GMT -5
I think we do have to be careful about how we define "discrimination". Just because you are young and start a new job and someone doesn't want to listen to your ideas is not necessarily discrimination.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Aug 16, 2012 11:33:29 GMT -5
Now, the job may or may not need to be updated - there may or may not be faster and more efficient ways to perform certain duties. New blood can definitely help highlight those areas. But it's never good to assume going into a new career that you know more than the people who have been doing it for 20-40 years, and I have seen that happen more than once. Great point. More than one new graduate has given us a "should" list of things we should do to change our company a few months in. The problems with making suggestions to improve a system you haven't mastered is usually it isn't an actionable plan. It would be like if I ran for governor and said: We should lower crime. We should lower unemployment. But I don't have an actionable plan on how to do it, just a list of obvious things that nearly everyone wants. Then they get annoyed that we don't value their ideas from the should list. The same workers have offered us energy and good perspectives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2012 11:35:14 GMT -5
And, sometimes, the older workers have already tried to reinvent the wheel with those ideas and it didn't work.
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