mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 5, 2012 21:55:12 GMT -5
Wait--why is this pinned to the top of every board? Ack! I'm sure this was an accidental "wrong button" thing. I'll undo the damage. Thanks, apple and taz! mmhmm, Administrator
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 5, 2012 22:00:03 GMT -5
Let's be very careful here. Don't get into accusing others of being "abusers". This is a subject that inflames emotions, so let's work to keep those under control, please. If you've made such an accusation, please amend your post. I haven't read all posts, but will be doing so.
mmhmm, Administrator
The frontal lobes of the brain haven't completed development until a human being is in their mid-twenties. Risk-taking and consequence evaluation are two areas that are not well developed until that time. It is for this reason the adult in charge must remain in charge, not only of the young people with whom he/she comes in contact, but of him/herself. There is no excuse for an adult to take advantage of a minor. None. It is inexcusable.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 9:48:04 GMT -5
My age barometer is totally off. I've guessed 15 on someone that was 24, and vice versa. I'd be lying if I said that I've never seen 15 year olds that could put girls 8 years older to shame. Some of them know exactly what they look like, and the effect it has on men. If a busty 15 year old has her lime green thong poking out of the back of her low rise jeans, and leans over her male teachers desk in a loose plunging top, and uses a suggestive phrase/tone of voice, she is doing it on purpose to get a reaction.
And guess what? That wasn't me. That wasn't even close to being me. I didn't know how to flirt, I didn't dress slutty, I didn't even wear makeup. Hell, all I had done with anyone at that point was kiss. EVERY teenager who gets involved with an older man is not a juvenile temptress, okay? That's the point I'm trying to make here.
I bet it gets really old having to go out of your way to follow some of these protocols too. If you are wrapping up at the end of the day and one of your students of the opposite sex comes in to talk business (ask for clarification of an assignment, perhaps) are you supposed to scramble out into the hall just in case? What if the hallway is empty?
Then you leave your door open. It's not that fucking complicated.
No, I'm saying that the 15 year old girl I described is flaunting her sexuality to get a reaction. I also never said anything about "confusion". She is very clearly making a sexual advance. I'm saying that once again, we like to bestow innocence on the instigator while punishing the reactor.
Because if the REACTOR is doing something ILLEGAL, it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT THE "INSTIGATOR" IS DOING. I can tell I'm going to have to excuse myself from this discussion quite soon...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 9:58:48 GMT -5
And again, it is not OK for the instigator to get off scot-free while the reactor takes all the heat -- no matter who they are.Just for your own information, WWBG, the teacher who initiated a relationship with me (again, he wasn't my teacher but close enough - he was engaged and later married to one of my teachers and our relationship was definitely in the realm of teacher-student) suffered NO repercussions from what he did with me. The specifics of our situation are a long and painful story, but suffice it to say that NOTHING happened to him. Partly because I was defending HIM and blaming MYSELF at every single turn. Do you have any idea how bad I felt thinking that I had betrayed my teacher, whom I practically worshiped? Do you know how it felt to sit in her class day after day and think about everything that her soon to be husband did and said to me, while meanwhile loving him so much that I thought I couldn't tell her? Let me put it this way: he went on his merry way with full confidence that I would never ever tell anyone or get him in trouble, which was true on both counts (at least at first). He absolutely broke my heart when it became clear he cared nothing at all about me. He moved away later that year and left me to pick up the pieces and live with the guilt. ALL the guilt. Not some of it. Not most of it. ALL OF IT. I doubt very much that he ever cared about me at all, while I would have walked through fire for him. So. Let's review. In your paradigm, I was the "instigator" and he was merely the "reactor." I was sixteen, a sophomore in high school. He was twenty-eight, practically married, and very definitely in a position of power over me. Yet somehow he "just couldn't help himself" from getting involved with me. Lucky for him, I guess, that nothing happened to him and I took the ENTIRE fallout. This "one time," the instigator was the only one punished. But hey, that never happens to anyone else right? In pretty much every other case, it's the calculating, malicious little teenage bitch trying to get one over on her poor unsuspecting teacher. Yup
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:00:31 GMT -5
No kidding!
mmhmm WWBG is using the language that abusers use. There is no careful way to say that. If you are going to censor that being pointed out, you should censor his use of that language.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:07:06 GMT -5
No, laterbloomer. WWBG is entitled to voice his opinion. We are NOT entitled to assume any psychological implication of his opinion. We're not qualified to do that. While I don't agree with his opinion, and can certainly say I don't agree, I cannot accuse him of being an abuser. I don't know if he is one, or not ... and, neither do you.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:08:57 GMT -5
It does take two to tango. I don't think the girl in my example is allowed to be offended if she gets the reaction she didn't want. Thank goodness the law disagrees with you. She could go to school naked and it would still be illegal for an adult to touch her.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 6, 2012 13:09:34 GMT -5
Firebird - So sorry you went through that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:14:20 GMT -5
The constant use of the work instigator as opposed to victim, and reactor as opposed to perpetrator is surreal to me.
Unfortunately, it isn't to me. Not anymore. I've chosen to wade into this muck over and over again in an effort to educate myself about rape culture. I do that primarily so I can help other people understand it. A side effect of that is that I sometimes have *very* little patience for the most elementary examples of victim blaming. But it is also the most common type of it. So no, I'm no longer surprised by this vile nonsense.
But let me state this for the record: I've been asked OVER AND OVER again, on this board and many others, what I find "so bad" about teaching young women how to protect themselves, how to "act like ladies" so they don't give the wrong impression, how to not be idiots around guys so they won't get raped. What's wrong with teaching people how to stay safe? Literally EVERY SINGLE TIME this discussion comes up, I get that question more than any other.
Well, THIS is why. Because those questions DIRECTLY contribute to a culture where it is permissible to consider a 15 year old whose teacher has sex with her to be an "instigator" rather than a victim. When you ask "why shouldn't we make sure girls act responsibly?" you are COMPLETELY ignoring the reality that when a sexual assault occurs, any "responsibility" a victim had to keep herself safe is taken away from her (or him, but let's be realistic - the "you should be responsible for your own behavior/safety" schtick is almost exclusively aimed at women and girls).
The questions seem innocent and that's what makes them so insidious. The problem with "why shouldn't I tell my daughter to watch her drink at parties" is NOT that you shouldn't tell her that. BY ITSELF, that's a decent safety tip. The problem is that if you're not having just as many conversations with your son about what constitutes consent and why it's not okay to have sex with a girl who's passed out, ever, then you are focusing responsibility ONLY on the person who is potentially being victimized.
And this seemingly innocent viewpoint has fucking disastrous implications when taken to its "logical" conclusions. Evidence some of the posts on this thread.
Basically, if your initial, AUTOMATIC response to a scenario where a 24 year old teacher is having sex with a 15 year old student has ANYTHING to do with what the student did to "instigate" or "encourage" the teacher, that's a clear indication that you do not understand the predatory power dynamics of teacher-student.
Maybe in VERY select, rare cases you might see an example of a wily student trying to get a teacher in trouble. But those cases are NOT the norm. Far, far more often you have a situation like mine - a naive young student being preyed upon by an adult in a clear position of authority and power.
Tl;dr - if you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you ought to sit down and shut up and see if you can maybe learn something before you start talking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:17:09 GMT -5
sometimes women love to be the victim. Not here, MU. Save your special brand of "wisdom" for one of your own threads, 'K?
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:20:10 GMT -5
sometimes women love to be the victim. Not here, MU. Save your special brand of "wisdom" for one of your own threads, 'K?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:20:38 GMT -5
I appreciate your brand of.......whatever it is you spew. But I don't think your posts are helpful at all in this thread right now.
ETA: And I'd like you to stick around. If you piss off anyone else I fear you will be taking an extended vacation.
ETAA: and THAT is why I said what I said, taxi. Don't get your thong in a twist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:21:57 GMT -5
Would you look up before you hit enter, MU???!?!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:22:08 GMT -5
Firebird - So sorry you went through that. Thanks, mutt, that's kind of you. To be honest, I've long since moved past what actually *happened* - I've done what I can to make my former teacher aware of the situation, which is (at this point) the best I can do. Know what I haven't yet gotten past, and probably never will? The culture that it happened in, the one that allowed ME to blame myself for what happened for a good half-decade and more. The one that continues to enable viewpoints like "it takes two to tango" and "girls know what they're looking for at that age" and "the instigator is always assumed to be the victim." THAT still upsets me to this very day, far more than what actually happened. When I think about how much scorn and blame was heaped on 16 year old me (and *I* was far and away the worst offender when it came to blaming the victim), I GET ANGRY. Posts like some of the ones in this thread make me fucking furious. I can live with what happened - that's not even the hard part. What I cannot and will not ever accept is the world in which it happened. The one that told him what he did was okay; the one that ensured he was never held accountable; the one that placed ALL the blame solely on me, the instigator.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:22:45 GMT -5
Message deleted by mmhmm.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:22:44 GMT -5
Message deleted by WeWillBackGowron. obscene language
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 13:25:52 GMT -5
Please people... I am not advocating going out and taking advantage of 15 year old girls. I am simply shining light on one overlooked aspect of this whole issue.
...:::"Ive had clients who tried that defense when charges with sex with a minor. They ended up in prison.":::...
Oh yes, I took business law and am familiar with the 4 elements of a contract. I vividly remember the course material adding emphasis and bolding to one particular point: "you deal with a minor at your peril".
...:::"I'm not saying let your toddler roam free to attack others - but children process things much differently from adults, and IMO should be held to different standards. And a 15yo is still, in many ways, a child.":::...
You asked and answered your own question with this point. In your example, the kid certainly deserves a punishment. The kid, or anyone (as I've consistently said) should not get off scot-free just because the reactor gives a reaction. This is YM, the land of personal responsibility.
...:::"WWBG is also assuming that the kid is always instigating with her wily ways and buxomy boobs. That is just not the case.":::...
No, WWBG isn't. susanb is putting words in WWBG's mouth. In post 129, I very clearly stated that most 15 year olds are not wily vixens looking to ruin men's lives.
...:::"Child predators look for certain traits, such as an unstable home life. They are not selecting their victims based on looks. They select victims that they believe are unlikely to report them to adults.":::...
I'll have to trust you on that.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:25:59 GMT -5
No, laterbloomer. WWBG is entitled to voice his opinion. We are NOT entitled to assume any psychological implication of his opinion. We're not qualified to do that. While I don't agree with his opinion, and can certainly say I don't agree, I cannot accuse him of being an abuser. I don't know if he is one, or not ... and, neither do you. mmhmm, Administrator we can deduce that if he were privy to knowledge of such an illegal sexual liaison between student and teacher - he would see the underage victim as the "instigator" and the poor hapless criminal as merely "reacting".... We can deduce whatever we like, tbird. What we cannot do is accuse another person of a crime (being an abuser is a crime) when we don't know whether, or not, they've committed that crime. mmhmm, Administrator
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 13:27:50 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I didn't see anyone call WWBG an abuser. I saw them say that the language he was using is the language of an abuser.
This is true.
It doesn't necessarily make him an abuser, but the fact that his language/reasoning is very similar to that used by abusers (as pointed out by many women on this board) is probably something of which he should be aware.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:32:17 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
contained quote of deleted post
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:33:36 GMT -5
It doesn't necessarily make him an abuser, but the fact that his language/reasoning is very similar to that used by abusers (as pointed out by many women on this board) is probably something of which he should be aware. Again, it starts with the language. It starts with a seemingly innocent proposition - "let's help women learn to protect themselves so they're less likely to be raped." And it ends with the idea that if you were victimized, then you must have done something to allow it, or help it along, or enable it. You didn't do enough to protect yourself. You probably asked for it. At the very least, you were stupid to make X choice and if you hadn't been stupid like that, it wouldn't have happened. WWBG, there are people out there who truly believe that every rape victim had it coming in some way or another. I don't know if you're one of those people or not. But you are definitely talking like one - make no mistake about that.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:34:37 GMT -5
Poor MU - he comes to a message board to offer help to someone who's clearly looking for help (why else would she be spilling her life's traumatic moments) and he's getting yelled at.
you know what they say MU - no good deed goes unpunished :-(
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:35:46 GMT -5
I have a feeling he'll be punished if he keeps offering unsolicited advice over here.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:36:24 GMT -5
It sounds to me like she doesn't want your help, muscleup. She's told you to butt out.
Mostly because I don't NEED any help. I didn't start this thread, and this is not about me. I offered my own story only as a counter-example to the posters who kept claiming that the student is the one who is "asking for it" and therefore deserves what happened.
As I said to mutt, I'm over what happened. Don't need any help there, especially from condescending misogynistic assholes.
What I am NOT over is the culture that allowed it to happen. I will be fighting against that for the rest of my life. I am not satisfied with this aspect of our culture; I want better for my daughter.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:37:36 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
contained quote of deleted post
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:37:57 GMT -5
Message deleted by mmhmm. Contained quote of post deleted by Moonbeam.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 13:39:09 GMT -5
UGH! I give up!! I'll see you two when you get back.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 13:39:18 GMT -5
I'm a little interested in whether WWBG's opinion changes if it's a situation of male student and female teacher. What's the male equivalent of a buxom teenage girl?
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:41:38 GMT -5
It sounds to me like she doesn't want your help, muscleup. She's told you to butt out. Mostly because I don't NEED any help. I didn't start this thread, and this is not about me. I offered my own story only as a counter-example to the posters who kept claiming that the student is the one who is "asking for it" and therefore deserves what happened. but every story has 2 sides...maybe the other side of your story is different??
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 13:42:00 GMT -5
You might want to take a criminal law class too because screwing a minor will land you in jail and brand you as a sex offender EVEN IF S/HE IS THE "INSTIGATOR."
I've been told by more than one sex offender that their victim was "asking for it" and acting seductively. Even when the victim was 6. It's just an excuse by a pathetic weasel to try to blame someone else for their power play.
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