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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 9:32:40 GMT -5
I didn't call you one. I answered Rukh's question. I said over reporting makes you a cry baby. I have no idea how many posts you've reported, but 4 doesn't count as a crybaby. ETA: Not every post is about you. You're usually not this touchy. Some posts yesterday were completely over hte top and not called for and were personal against you. However, consider the source here. Step back and breathe.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 9:34:40 GMT -5
...:::Had the debate stayed civil, it wouldn't have been a problem. but when it gets to the point where nothing new is being said, it's turned into a flame-fest and we're getting reports out the ass, it's time for it to go, period.:::... The debate wasn't particularly uncivil nor was it a flame fest. There was disagreement, but still new points being made. If it's too much work to moderate, either add more moderators or temporarily lock the thread while it gets worked through, but removing the whole thing creates the wrong impression and is insulting to the people who are working within the defined system - CoC - to discuss issues. 1. I can't just "add moderators" on a dime. And frankly, I don't think there's anyone on this board that I would want as a mod, anyway.. But that's just on quick thought. 2. I don't know what you think I do in a day besides sit on this board, but I do actually have a full time job, in IT. Yesterday, while everyone's panties were in a twist, I was also working 2 concurrent critical outages. I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. I don't much appreciate that after i work a 12 hr day at my real job (as well as try to be here) i have to come home and put in hours more here all because some people refuse to calm down like they were asked to do. I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 9:36:58 GMT -5
Oh, and as far as reporting things that are not against the CoC (as was mentioned before)- that is what the PM system is for. I still want to hear concerns but the report to mod is not for objecting to someone else's opinion, or things like that. It's for things that are CoC violations!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 7, 2012 9:37:46 GMT -5
Wow. That was nice, Moon. Great to know what you think of us all.
** accidentally added my response to what was supposed to be a quote of this post IN the post. .. sorry.. let me try again.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 9:37:52 GMT -5
if there were multiple reports on the same thread - then a mod should read that thread... rukh, there were several of us on that thread and we STILL couldn't keep up with it. i said that earlier but i guess you didn't see or didn't care.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 7, 2012 9:38:10 GMT -5
Later peeps. Be nice to each other!!
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 9:38:40 GMT -5
...:::Had the debate stayed civil, it wouldn't have been a problem. but when it gets to the point where nothing new is being said, it's turned into a flame-fest and we're getting reports out the ass, it's time for it to go, period.:::... The debate wasn't particularly uncivil nor was it a flame fest. There was disagreement, but still new points being made. If it's too much work to moderate, either add more moderators or temporarily lock the thread while it gets worked through, but removing the whole thing creates the wrong impression and is insulting to the people who are working within the defined system - CoC - to discuss issues. 1. I can't just "add moderators" on a dime. And frankly, I don't think there's anyone on this board that I would want as a mod, anyway.. But that's just on quick thought. 2. I don't know what you think I do in a day besides sit on this board, but I do actually have a full time job, in IT. Yesterday, while everyone's panties were in a twist, I was also working 2 concurrent critical outages. I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. I don't much appreciate that after i work a 12 hr day at my real job (as well as try to be here) i have to come home and put in hours more here all because some people refuse to calm down like they were asked to do. I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. I appreciate both your continued work on the Board and the fact that we are now able to discuss this.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 7, 2012 9:39:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 9:40:44 GMT -5
There was no apology given on the thread muttley... and those of us questioning the decision to delete the thread without a word are being treated like irrational ungrateful children who just came in the house with muddy shoes... and being told that our interpretation of things that were said is unfounded and irrational.... even though it was pretty clear that the words used were the words intended but we are not being given the opportunity to continue the conversation because conflict makes the mods uncomfortable. I don't recall saying that your "interpretation of things that were said is unfounded and irrational." The thread was removed for one reason only- because we flat couldn't keep up with the problems in it. The thread topic was valid and a good subject. Lots of good points were brought up, and... some not so good. Had the debate stayed civil, it wouldn't have been a problem. but when it gets to the point where nothing new is being said, it's turned into a flame-fest and we're getting reports out the ass, it's time for it to go, period. At that time, there was nothing being accomplished. the same things were simply being said over and over, just in different words. everyone was very emotional over it -which i understand. it was evident that everyone needed to cool off, which was why i said to drop it or i'd lock the board for a day or two. Firebird , they get removed because it's too time consuming to have to go through a lengthy thread and remove stuff that would be against either our CoC or Proboards ToS so that it can stay on the public board. you don't realize just how much work it is to do it, especially on a thread like that one. I have other things to do.. All the mods do. so, if someone feels like going through it and making sure it's kosher so to speak, then fine.. it can be brought back in a locked status. but it's not going to be a priority. I've only ever reported posts with very obscene sexual content, and then only because the offenders wouldn't let up and that stuff doesn't belong here. A little innuendo is one thing but all-out graphic descriptions are not something I personally like to see here or feel the need to tolerate since that's ostensibly why EE is there. no that's NOT why ee is there. it's not allowed there either. You did not Moon, but Virgil did. That was a major reason people continued to flip out.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 9:41:10 GMT -5
if there were multiple reports on the same thread - then a mod should read that thread... rukh, there were several of us on that thread and we STILL couldn't keep up with it. i said that earlier but i guess you didn't see or didn't care. It is hard to understand. There were at least 3 mods besides WWBG involved and all had time to post back and forth disagreeing with perceived criticism, defending other mods and at times insulting people that questioned what happened. If only that effort had been directed toward moderating, maybe there would have been a different result.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 9:43:21 GMT -5
Wow. That was nice, Moon. Great to know what you think of us all. Sorry GEL. but i don't spend a lot of time here on this board, so i don't know the good level headed posters. I know the ones that like to fight. and those are who are in my mind right now. I want someone who stays neutral, that's all, and at the moment, I don't know who that might be. that's why i said that was my "First thought" , not my last.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 7, 2012 9:44:53 GMT -5
::I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. ::
I'm not exactly sure what happened as I wasn't here for it, but based on this phrase and some of the commentary it seems like the issue with thread removal can be summarized as:
1. Poster gets out of control, thread gets locked.
2. Mod gets out of control, thread gets removed.
3. Does it really take more time to lock a thread than remove it? Threads get locked all the time, it can't take much to do it.
::I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. ::
I may be wrong, but the main point I'm getting from people is "don't remove threads to cover up for a mod's poor behavior because you don't remove threads to cover up for others". That part of it seems pretty simple.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 7, 2012 9:45:23 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is 'neutral' - at least, no posters here. Or anywhere.
But IMO it's possible to have opinions and still moderate fairly. We all have our hot-button topics, but (obviously) so do the current mods...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 7, 2012 9:45:44 GMT -5
Wow. That was nice, Moon. Great to know what you think of us all. Sorry GEL. but i don't spend a lot of time here on this board, so i don't know the good level headed posters. I know the ones that like to fight. and those are who are in my mind right now. I want someone who stays neutral, that's all, and at the moment, I don't know who that might be. that's why i said that was my "First thought" , not my last. YOu probably should have kept that thought to yourself.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 9:45:45 GMT -5
...:::I will not comment on this instance, but I have seen it, and indeed I have done it, come back later, and said (or thought) Oops.:::...
That kind of response - Ooops - would have calmed things down much more quickly than repeatedly telling people to "stop bitching" and to not beat the "fucking dead horse."
...:::Aside from this particular incident, do you feel that these boards are generally well managed, or managed inappropriately?:::...
Generally well managed with a few exceptions. The disrespect for people who point out issues is a serious problem. Good leaders are able to hear and evaluate criticism without becoming defensive or shutting dissent down arbitrarily.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 9:46:05 GMT -5
::I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. :: I'm not exactly sure what happened as I wasn't here for it, but based on this phrase and some of the commentary it seems like the issue with thread removal can be summarized as: 1. Poster gets out of control, thread gets locked. 2. Mod gets out of control, thread gets removed. 3. Does it really take more time to lock a thread than remove it? Threads get locked all the time, it can't take much to do it. ::I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. :: I may be wrong, but the main point I'm getting from people is "don't remove threads to cover up for a mod's poor behavior because you don't remove threads to cover up for others". That part of it seems pretty simple. Sooooo
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 7, 2012 9:47:38 GMT -5
...:::I will not comment on this instance, but I have seen it, and indeed I have done it, come back later, and said (or thought) Oops.:::... That kind of response - Ooops - would have calmed things down much more quickly than repeatedly telling people to "stop bitching" and to not beat the "fucking dead horse." ...:::Aside from this particular incident, do you feel that these boards are generally well managed, or managed inappropriately?:::... Generally well managed with a few exceptions. The disrespect for people who point out issues is a serious problem. Good leaders are able to hear and evaluate criticism without becoming defensive or shutting dissent down arbitrarily.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 7, 2012 9:47:38 GMT -5
ETA: Not every post is about you. You're usually not this touchy. Some posts yesterday were completely over hte top and not called for and were personal against you. However, consider the source here. Step back and breathe. Swamp, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have responded to your post because what I said wasn't intended as a response to you. (This is what I get for trying to participate on a thread when I'm on the train instead of waiting until I've got a computer in front of me.) I know you weren't accusing me of compulsive reporting. It's just that the whole "whyyyyyyyyyyy do people report posts, who CARES if people post disgusting crap on random threads, GOD people are so whiny and oversensitive!" thing comes up every.single.time a moderating discussion does and it really gets old. I don't much appreciate that after i work a 12 hr day at my real job (as well as try to be here) i have to come home and put in hours more here all because some people refuse to calm down like they were asked to do. I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. Moon, I understand now why you would make a thread vanish instead of locking it (too many posts requiring moderation), and that makes sense. However, I have two questions in response: 1) As far as I could see, there weren't many posts on the Teacher thread that violated the CoC - MAYBE two or three, and all in the last five pages. Can you not look it over (or ask a fellow mod to do so) and just see if there really were this many actionable posts or people were just getting too heated? Because I suspect that it was the latter, and if so, maybe the thread could reasonably be returned to the board with a lock. This is literally all I'm asking for here - I just don't want the thread banished to never-never land for good. 2) I've gotten a notice saying something like "this post has already been reported" before, and I wasn't allowed to report it. So how can a post be reported multiple times?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 7, 2012 9:48:29 GMT -5
99.5% of the time, the board is great. But the other 0.5% of the time, I've seen posters threatened with banning or their posts removed simply for asking questions or stating an opinion on the moderation of the board. I think the mods/admins take for granted that we know how the board administration works. We are mostly in the dark. Questions and suggestions on the board's moderation seem to be perceived as attacks, but I don't think they're usually meant that way.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 7, 2012 9:50:35 GMT -5
::Aside from this particular incident, do you feel that these boards are generally well managed, or managed inappropriately?::
Aside from this issue, in general, well managed. With the issue of questioning a moderator action or the wild inconsistencies with what happens when a post or thread is deemed inappropriate (and also what is deemed inappropriate), it seems to be pretty mismanaged (and in large part, i think, due to the fact that no one seems to be actually able to say what the process is. today it's this, tomorrow it's this, if this poster does it then this happens, if it's a poster someone likes this happens, if it's a mod they get special treatment, etc. I think it's mismanaged from the standpoint that rules are randomly made up on the spot, then preached to us as if we were supposed to know).
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 9:52:05 GMT -5
Wow. That was nice, Moon. Great to know what you think of us all. Sorry GEL. but i don't spend a lot of time here on this board, so i don't know the good level headed posters. I know the ones that like to fight. and those are who are in my mind right now. I want someone who stays neutral, that's all, and at the moment, I don't know who that might be. that's why i said that was my "First thought" , not my last. If a primary criteria for a mod is not engaging in fighting, you need to reassess your current team and spend some more time reading their posts. Particularly WWBG, who devotes a significant amount of time and energy not just fighting but discussing the need to exact punishment or revenge on people who have committed wrongs. Did you not see the thread he initiated where he specifically discussed the idea of whether it's better to solve the problem or properly punish a wrongdoer? Personally, I do not have an issue with WWBG and my objections to the moderating of the Board have to do with how the procedure works and not his personal views. But if you are stating that you select mods based on who doesn't like to argue, then let's be blunt and call you on at least this particular mod - who clearly loves to argue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 9:55:01 GMT -5
::Aside from this particular incident, do you feel that these boards are generally well managed, or managed inappropriately?:: Aside from this issue, in general, well managed. With the issue of questioning a moderator action or the wild inconsistencies with what happens when a post or thread is deemed inappropriate (and also what is deemed inappropriate), it seems to be pretty mismanaged (and in large part, i think, due to the fact that no one seems to be actually able to say what the process is. today it's this, tomorrow it's this, if this poster does it then this happens, if it's a poster someone likes this happens, if it's a mod they get special treatment, etc. I think it's mismanaged from the standpoint that rules are randomly made up on the spot, then preached to us as if we were supposed to know).
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 7, 2012 9:56:17 GMT -5
There seems to be some common sentiment that Mods shape discussions/ deletions, and wholesale dropping of threads to make their own arguments and/ or to delete records of what they have written from view. I have honestly not seen this happen. It may have, but I have not seen it.
To be fair, I've never seen this happen. It sounds like it may have happened yesterday (?) but I didn't see it.
Aside from this particular incident, do you feel that these boards are generally well managed, or managed inappropriately?
In general, I think the moderators do a fantastic job and I very much appreciate the fact that there are people who are willing to do it. I LIKE the fact that posts are not deleted without good reason and people are not usually banned.
I'm against censorship - I don't like it when posts are deleted and I don't especially like when posters are banned (of course, there are rare exceptions when a poster is too spammy for any other course of action).
So my ONLY complaint is when threads disappear. Moonbeam has explained why that's sometimes necessary and I understand better now why a thread would need to go to never-land instead of being locked.
I would like to see those threads EVENTUALLY moderated for objectionable content and returned to the boards, even if it took months. That's all I really want, and I only want it because they often contain GREAT and very worthwhile discussion material that people can benefit from reading after a cool-down period.
Other than that, I think the mods do fantastic work and this is honestly meant as more of a constructive suggestion than a criticism.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 7, 2012 9:58:47 GMT -5
3. Does it really take more time to lock a thread than remove it? Threads get locked all the time, it can't take much to do it.
I think her point was that it takes more time to lock a thread and edit it for any objectionable posts than it does to simply move it to never-land, which is totally understandable. However, I'd think that time could be made eventually for deserving threads.
The teacher thread ought to come back at some point, minus the objectionable posts. I'm not saying today - but someday. It was a worthwhile discussion and there were honestly very few posts, if any, that were against the CoC (I say that as a person who was personally attacked in that thread, more than once).
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 9:59:07 GMT -5
::I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. :: I'm not exactly sure what happened as I wasn't here for it, but based on this phrase and some of the commentary it seems like the issue with thread removal can be summarized as: 1. Poster gets out of control, thread gets locked. 2. Mod gets out of control, thread gets removed. 3. Does it really take more time to lock a thread than remove it? Threads get locked all the time, it can't take much to do it. ::I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. :: I may be wrong, but the main point I'm getting from people is "don't remove threads to cover up for a mod's poor behavior because you don't remove threads to cover up for others". That part of it seems pretty simple. Please go back a page or two and find my response to Firebird as to why it was removed and not just locked. And it has nothing to do with it being a mod vs poster.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 7, 2012 10:03:17 GMT -5
I don't much appreciate that after i work a 12 hr day at my real job (as well as try to be here) i have to come home and put in hours more here all because some people refuse to calm down like they were asked to do. I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. Moon, I understand now why you would make a thread vanish instead of locking it (too many posts requiring moderation), and that makes sense. However, I have two questions in response: 1) As far as I could see, there weren't many posts on the Teacher thread that violated the CoC - MAYBE two or three, and all in the last five pages. Can you not look it over (or ask a fellow mod to do so) and just see if there really were this many actionable posts or people were just getting too heated? Because I suspect that it was the latter, and if so, maybe the thread could reasonably be returned to the board with a lock. This is literally all I'm asking for here - I just don't want the thread banished to never-never land for good. 2) I've gotten a notice saying something like "this post has already been reported" before, and I wasn't allowed to report it. So how can a post be reported multiple times? Firebird, there may not be many posts that would have to be removed. there may be NONE. Point is, i have other things to do - and so do the other mods- besides go through it right this minute. i already said it could be done and moved back, but it is not and will not be a priority. as to your question number 2, a post can be reported only once. but we got multiple posts reported from the thread. sorry for the confusion.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 10:04:24 GMT -5
::I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. :: I'm not exactly sure what happened as I wasn't here for it, but based on this phrase and some of the commentary it seems like the issue with thread removal can be summarized as: 1. Poster gets out of control, thread gets locked. 2. Mod gets out of control, thread gets removed. 3. Does it really take more time to lock a thread than remove it? Threads get locked all the time, it can't take much to do it. ::I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. :: I may be wrong, but the main point I'm getting from people is "don't remove threads to cover up for a mod's poor behavior because you don't remove threads to cover up for others". That part of it seems pretty simple. Please go back a page or two and find my response to Firebird as to why it was removed and not just locked. And it has nothing to do with it being a mod vs poster. With all the time and effort you and the other mods have spent defending the practice, wouldn't it make sense to redirect the energy into actually reading the Teacher/Student thread, removing anything that violates the CoC (and, other than the personal attack I mentioned, I do not remember anything that obviously violated it), and putting it back on the Board so people could make up their own mind? Let the words speak for themself.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 7, 2012 10:09:47 GMT -5
...:::Had the debate stayed civil, it wouldn't have been a problem. but when it gets to the point where nothing new is being said, it's turned into a flame-fest and we're getting reports out the ass, it's time for it to go, period.:::... The debate wasn't particularly uncivil nor was it a flame fest. There was disagreement, but still new points being made. If it's too much work to moderate, either add more moderators or temporarily lock the thread while it gets worked through, but removing the whole thing creates the wrong impression and is insulting to the people who are working within the defined system - CoC - to discuss issues. 1. I can't just "add moderators" on a dime. And frankly, I don't think there's anyone on this board that I would want as a mod, anyway.. But that's just on quick thought. 2. I don't know what you think I do in a day besides sit on this board, but I do actually have a full time job, in IT. Yesterday, while everyone's panties were in a twist, I was also working 2 concurrent critical outages. I don't have time to "temporarily lock while it gets worked through". So, I told the mod team the thread needed to be moved. MY decision, so you can't say WWBG did it to cover it up. I don't much appreciate that after i work a 12 hr day at my real job (as well as try to be here) i have to come home and put in hours more here all because some people refuse to calm down like they were asked to do. I do get the point you're making but it's just not as easy as you want to make it out to be. Moon, for #2 would you be willing to consider always locking the thread but not moving it in any instance like what occurred yesterday? I'll even volunteer to write a cut and paste statement to put at the bottom of the thread to notify posters the thread is locked might be reviewed in the next 24 hours whatever. I've also worked IT and I understand in crisis mode it is easy to just want to make things go away especially in one's volunteer life. I think though if your policy changes to lock, not move, with a canned explanation perhaps things will be more fair and make more sense to those of us who are not mods. A canned statement covering something like: This thread has been locked due to numerous reports. The mods and Moon do not have the resources to review this thread at this time so we request your patience. It is hoped this thread will be reviewed within the next 24 hours at which time it will be unlocked with potential mod edits or remain locked with a quick explanation. It will be greatly appreciated if threads discussing this action are kept to a minimum as it will cause only further need for moderation and might extend our preferred deadline out to 36 or 48 hours. Thank you, your friendly volunteer board moderators.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 7, 2012 10:09:59 GMT -5
Firebird, there may not be many posts that would have to be removed. there may be NONE. Point is, i have other things to do - and so do the other mods- besides go through it right this minute. i already said it could be done and moved back, but it is not and will not be a priority.
Understood. You guys have other stuff to do and that's fine. If it could be reviewed and returned at some point (even months down the line), I would greatly appreciate it.
Perhaps one of the mods who was monitoring the thread (you said there were three besides WWBG) could take this on in his or her spare time. Like I said, I don't think there were many truly out-of-bounds posts, if any, so this could be a quick job.
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Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 2:10:47 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 10:11:57 GMT -5
Please go back a page or two and find my response to Firebird as to why it was removed and not just locked. And it has nothing to do with it being a mod vs poster. With all the time and effort you and the other mods have spent defending the practice, wouldn't it make sense to redirect the energy into actually reading the Teacher/Student thread, removing anything that violates the CoC (and, other than the personal attack I mentioned, I do not remember anything that obviously violated it), and putting it back on the Board so people could make up their own mind? Let the words speak for themself. Milee I can understand that when you are feeling attacked, it is hard not to respond. Honestly, I think the best thing would have been, to say, it has been removed until it gets reviewed, because of too many reports, not defend WWBG and it would have gone away. And then a non-involved moderator, could have done so at their leisure. It would have avoided the huge fight. It might have also made people more willing to believe WWBG's "apology", though of that part I am not sure.
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