mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 20:26:30 GMT -5
No, gin. If you have someone on Ignore, you won't see their posts. You must ignore them separately in PMs, and you cannot ignore an administrator. Then please remove WWBG as an administrator. Given my response on the thread, and my obvious disgust, I really did not need nor want WWBG to continue contacting me, especially directly, and I dislike that I have no way, unlike any other poster, to stop him. Many of you appear not to understand why people were upset, but obviously people were upset at him comments, and the fact that we can't ignore him is even worse. I'm not able to do that, and I think it's beyond harsh considering he has explained himself at this point. I don't have holes in my hands, either. I make mistakes, I misstate things, and I muck up. I certainly understand why people were upset, as I made clear when I said I thought he might have misworded his feelings. I disagreed with him in the thread, for crying out tears. We all know those kids aren't to blame.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 20:26:41 GMT -5
After the thread was deleted. He many times, on the thread, in different ways said the exact same thing. Give us some respect for some intelligence, he is backpeddling. People told him they were horrified, nothing changed except he got worse. It was deleted, all of you were notified, he retracts it. That does not look fishy to you. What would show remorse, would be a voluntary ban or removal of his mod powers for some time, given that he clearly express himself "poorly under rapid fire posting". Which he could have avoided by walking away for a minute. I know I did, as I reported the issue via the mod button and to moonbeam, because I did not know if he would try to cover up what he did if the report was just via the report mod. I believe Gowron expressed the possibility of stepping away for a bit if the consensus wished it so. That will be up to him and moonbeam, not you and I. The guy has apologized, and has stated his position clearly. I'm of the mind to give people a break when they've done that. Maybe, it's just me. When a person says a child is the instigator and is partly responsible for an adult perpetrating a crime of said minor, no way will I give that person a break. In fact in real life, that person would be gone from my life and possible reported if he was around my school.
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 20:28:10 GMT -5
The only point I'm getting from all this is that if at least 6 of us report every Muscleup or Taxi post, they will eventually be banned because they're a PITA to moderate? (Mmhmm, I do appreciate you explaining the process. I know you weren't responsible for deleting the thread.) I do think that it makes more sense - if multiple reports are being generated because of ONE person - to ban that person, and not lock the entire thread. Not quite, MidJD. Posters like the two you mention, if banned, will be banned because they cannot adhere to the rules of the board. It's that simple. As I've said, there are those who are on that edge as we speak.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 20:28:15 GMT -5
Then please remove WWBG as an administrator. Given my response on the thread, and my obvious disgust, I really did not need nor want WWBG to continue contacting me, especially directly, and I dislike that I have no way, unlike any other poster, to stop him. Many of you appear not to understand why people were upset, but obviously people were upset at him comments, and the fact that we can't ignore him is even worse. I'm not able to do that, and I think it's beyond harsh considering he has explained himself at this point. I don't have holes in my hands, either. I make mistakes, I misstate things, and I muck up. I certainly understand why people were upset, as I made clear when I said I thought he might have misworded his feelings. I disagreed with him in the thread, for crying out tears. We all know those kids aren't to blame. Given that he contacted me, and I assume others via PM and after asking, I am told I have no way of keeping him from doing so, I don't find it harsh at all.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 20:30:06 GMT -5
I'm sure Gowron will agree not to contact you if you ask that he not do so, Gin. You can copy your request to moonbeam (and to me, if you wish).
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 6, 2012 20:31:23 GMT -5
I'm defending Mr. Gowron because this whole mess hinges on the polysemy of the word 'deserve'.
As in: Does a heroin user who uses an unsterilized needle once and only once in his life 'deserve' to contract AIDS?
Yes, in the causal sense. There is a known risk with the activity. In the same way, we know that provocative dress inflames human passions by design, and we know that some men act on these passions, regardless of the victim's intent. These are known, documented, indisputable cause/effect relationships. The fact that I acknowledge their existence in no way means that I want heroin users to contract AIDS. It means that an individual who is aware of the cause/effect relationship will indisputably bear the consequence of (and thus, the responsibility for) any decision made in possession of that knowledge.
No, in the probabilistic sense. Getting AIDS from a single injection isn't a probable outcome, and in fact the vast majority of heroin users will never contract AIDS regardless of how diligent they are in sterilizing needles. In the same way, being sexually assaulted is not a foreseeable consequence in the minds of most of the youth who dress provocatively.
No, in the humanistic sense. Nobody here wants to see AIDS victims or rape victims, and anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke.
There is also 'deserve' in the comparative sense, which is too broad a subject for this post.
Life is a spectrum of risks and consequences. Personally, I feel the risks and consequences are such that teachers should never, under any circumstances, fraternize with their students. I would consider it both professional as well as moral misconduct on the part of the teacher, as well as a subversion of the proper dynamic of authority that exists between educator and pupil.
As for whether a victim 'deserves' (deserves in the causal sense? in the probabilistic sense? in the humanistic sense?) to be victimized or not, once they've been victimized, it really doesn't matter, does it?
Nobody here had the sense of mind to ask Mr. Gowron what he meant by his position in the Teacher thread. I've read the Teacher thread. Everybody has blindly assumed 'deserved' is intended in the humanistic sense, when the thread contents document Mr. Gowron (initially) assuming that he and everyone else are talking in the causal sense, and (later) madly scrambling to deflect a firestorm of criticism when he realizes his audience has, for some absurd reason, assumed that he was talking in a humanistic sense.
Anyway...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 6, 2012 20:32:24 GMT -5
Amen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 20:39:13 GMT -5
Virgil are you seriously picking up the arguement again in the middle of this discussion? And taking WWBG side in it? You have got to be kidding me!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 20:40:06 GMT -5
I'm defending Mr. Gowron because this whole mess hinges on the polysemy of the word 'deserve'. As in: Does a heroin user who uses an unsterilized needle once and only once in his life 'deserve' to contract AIDS? Yes, in the causal sense. There is a known risk with the activity. In the same way, we know that provocative dress inflames human passions by design, and we know that some men act on these passions, regardless of the victim's intent. These are known, documented, indisputable cause/effect relationships. The fact that I acknowledge their existence in no way means that I want heroin users to contract AIDS. It means that an individual who is aware of the cause/effect relationship will indisputably bear the consequence of (and thus, the responsibility for) any decision made in possession of that knowledge. No, in the probabilistic sense. Getting AIDS from a single injection isn't a probable outcome, and in fact the vast majority of heroin users will never contract AIDS regardless of how diligent they are in sterilizing needles. In the same way, being sexually assaulted is not a foreseeable consequence in the minds of most of the youth who dress provocatively. No, in the humanistic sense. Nobody here wants to see AIDS victims or rape victims, and anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke. There is also 'deserve' in the comparative sense, which is too broad a subject for this post. Life is a spectrum of risks and consequences. Personally, I feel the risks and consequences are such that teachers should never, under any circumstances, fraternize with their students. I would consider it both professional as well as moral misconduct on the part of the teacher, as well as a subversion of the proper dynamic of authority that exists between educator and pupil. As for whether a victim 'deserves' (deserves in the causal sense? in the probabilistic sense? in the humanistic sense?) to be victimized or not, once they've been victimized, it really doesn't matter, does it? Nobody here had the sense of mind to ask Mr. Gowron what he meant by his position in the Teacher thread. I've read the Teacher thread. Everybody has blindly assumed 'deserved' is intended in the humanistic sense, when the thread contents document Mr. Gowron (initially) assuming that he and everyone else are talking in the causal sense, and (later) madly scrambling to deflect a firestorm of criticism when he realizes his audience has, for some absurd reason, assumed that he was talking in a humanistic sense. Anyway... Deserve does not have a causal sense, it is the same as merit, or worthy of or justify. Does the child who dresses in provocative clothing merit or justify his or her being being raped?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 20:40:33 GMT -5
...:::"I believe Gowron expressed the possibility of stepping away for a bit if the consensus wished it so. That will be up to him and moonbeam, not you and I. The guy has apologized, and has stated his position clearly. I'm of the mind to give people a break when they've done that. Maybe, it's just me.":::...
Yes, if tomorrow things are not better, then I'll accept some time off. The bottom line is, I hurt a community that I love due to a failure to think. If me taking some time off will help that community heal, then I'll do it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 20:41:56 GMT -5
Why wait until tomorrow?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 20:42:02 GMT -5
I'm defending Mr. Gowron because this whole mess hinges on the polysemy of the word 'deserve'. As in: Does a heroin user who uses an unsterilized needle once and only once in his life 'deserve' to contract AIDS? Yes, in the causal sense. There is a known risk with the activity. In the same way, we know that provocative dress inflames human passions by design, and we know that some men act on these passions, regardless of the victim's intent. These are known, documented, indisputable cause/effect relationships. The fact that I acknowledge their existence in no way means that I want heroin users to contract AIDS. It means that an individual who is aware of the cause/effect relationship will indisputably bear the consequence of (and thus, the responsibility for) any decision made in possession of that knowledge. No, in the probabilistic sense. Getting AIDS from a single injection isn't a probable outcome, and in fact the vast majority of heroin users will never contract AIDS regardless of how diligent they are in sterilizing needles. In the same way, being sexually assaulted is not a foreseeable consequence in the minds of most of the youth who dress provocatively. No, in the humanistic sense. Nobody here wants to see AIDS victims or rape victims, and anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke. There is also 'deserve' in the comparative sense, which is too broad a subject for this post. Life is a spectrum of risks and consequences. Personally, I feel the risks and consequences are such that teachers should never, under any circumstances, fraternize with their students. I would consider it both professional as well as moral misconduct on the part of the teacher, as well as a subversion of the proper dynamic of authority that exists between educator and pupil. As for whether a victim 'deserves' (deserves in the causal sense? in the probabilistic sense? in the humanistic sense?) to be victimized or not, once they've been victimized, it really doesn't matter, does it? Nobody here had the sense of mind to ask Mr. Gowron what he meant by his position in the Teacher thread. I've read the Teacher thread. Everybody has blindly assumed 'deserved' is intended in the humanistic sense, when the thread contents document Mr. Gowron (initially) assuming that he and everyone else are talking in the causal sense, and (later) madly scrambling to deflect a firestorm of criticism when he realizes his audience has, for some absurd reason, assumed that he was talking in a humanistic sense. Anyway... Nice try, but no.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 20:44:37 GMT -5
When EVERY SINGLE READER (except you, apparently) is extraordinarily offended by a comment, that probably means the comment is extraordinarily offensive. I think the absurd thing is assuming you know what WWBG meant. No one else seems to have gotten that meaning from what he said.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 20:46:02 GMT -5
I believe Gowron expressed the possibility of stepping away for a bit if the consensus wished it so. That will be up to him and moonbeam, not you and I. The guy has apologized, and has stated his position clearly. I'm of the mind to give people a break when they've done that. Maybe, it's just me. sure - give him a break if you want to. But being a moderator is different from just a poster, and as we have heard, we can't put a moderator on ignore - so that is an issue for some. I appreciate his apology, but interestingly enough - it only cited the sandusky victims (which were all male), not victims in general, of which the majority are female. Thing is, Rukh, I'd give the same break to you, or anyone else who misspoke themselves and, subsequently, apologized. I expect no more of human beings than to be human beings, warts and all.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2012 20:46:02 GMT -5
"I've read the Teacher thread. "
Good. Then I'll wait patiently for you to apologize for your mischaracterization of my statements. Since you've read it you are now aware I never called WWBG a "liar", "friend of rapists" or "misogynist" as you claimed I - and everyone else did - on your prior post.
"Nobody here had the sense of mind to ask Mr. Gowron what he meant by his position in the Teacher thread. "
Do you not see the irony here in insulting us for not having the "sense of mind" to do something when we were prevented from doing so when the whole thread was removed? How do you know what we would or would not have had the "sense of mind" to do when we were not given the opportunity to do so?
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 6, 2012 20:47:54 GMT -5
ok.. I have had my fill of bitching and whining today.. This place has deteriorated to the point where I am seriously thinking of shutting it down for a few days and give everyone time to cool off.
the thread got moved because it cannot be adequately moderated. i don't care that you don't like it. i have better things to do than babysit a board to that level. this is a VOLUNTEER POSITION,. as it is for ALL mods and i don't need to work that hard at something i don't get paid for.
now, enough is enough. go discuss something else or YM will be closed for posting for a couple of days.
~moon/ mod
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 20:47:59 GMT -5
When EVERY SINGLE READER (except you, apparently) is extraordinarily offended by a comment, that probably means the comment is extraordinarily offensive. I think the absurd thing is assuming you know what WWBG meant. No one else seems to have gotten that meaning from what he said. There's truth to this, and I truly believe Gowron knows it. Can we just try to open our hearts to that possibility?
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