thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 11:09:13 GMT -5
I've been wondering if I should be mad or thankful.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2012 11:16:08 GMT -5
...anyway, KaraBoo... I hope your screening process uncovers what you need, so that you can feel confident about any candidate... I also hope my bouncing ideas back at you was helpful and not distracting... it's not my intent to be harsh or anything... Not distracting at all and I appreciate the different perspectives. I LOL'd at the spiral perm and should pads comment! No - none of those present at the interview anyway. The applicant is probably closer to my coworker's age (early 50's) than mine (I'm 37), but probably 10+ years younger than boss (60). Hard to tell for sure - like I said, she looks great! One thing that I guess is really at the crux of the issue for me is this - boss has stated she wants someone in the position for the long haul, not someone who will be wanting to leave within a 1-3 year time frame. Both the boss and coworker have been in their positions 20+ years. I've been with the company 17 years and was recommended for this position 8 months ago through word of mouth/recommendations from a previous coworker that was in this position 15+ years (and was promoted to another position). How does getting a CDL license and possible nursing degree jive with this philosophy of the boss's for a long-term employee investment? I know it's hard getting this information in bits and pieces - sorry about that! ...thanks for the feedback... ...some thoughts: ...does "in for the long haul" mean 5+yrs? 10+yrs? 15+yrs? ...and if this is a retirement location for them, then being in a hospital setting doing admin work, with nursing school on the side, means she could be open to PT nurse and FT admin, or FT nurse and PT admin, and work toward a head nurse position, which undoubtedly means both admin and nursing... correct? ...and parenthood itself can demystify the medical/nursing profession, so an admin going for medical training post-kids isn't a stretch, imo... ...and a CDL may be required by some truck companies for their local/regional runs carrying passengers, so her wanting to secure the proper credential to accompany DH makes a lot of sense to me... ...and a CDL is required for some, if not all, mobile care vehicles, if that job opp appeared... correct? ...so, imo, a spectrum of skills in "AP to CDL to nursing" still falls well into the confines of community hospitals... correct? ...anyway, maybe your boss lady shares some of these thoughts?
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kent
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Post by kent on Jul 27, 2012 11:44:59 GMT -5
She probably mentioned Lotus to demonstrate the breadth and depth of her knowledge? So, the bottom line is that she may be very proficient and just trying to let you know than. Maybe....but I didn't get that impression. I think I'm afraid that someone who mentions Lotus as a skill will give me the same work as the other, previous co-worker. Having spent some time in HR, my advice is to follow your "instincts" and move on to another candidate.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2012 11:48:58 GMT -5
Maybe....but I didn't get that impression. I think I'm afraid that someone who mentions Lotus as a skill will give me the same work as the other, previous co-worker. Having spent some time in HR, my advice is to follow your "instincts" and move on to another candidate.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2012 11:57:23 GMT -5
...interesting that you would consider her question about down-time a "flag"... I kinda like it... but, full disclosure, I'm apparently old now, if I take this thread to heart... Sorry - should have included more info on why it was a "flag" for me. She also told us she was currently going to class for her CDL license (to help her DH drive a truck route on the weekends) and had applied to nursing school. She's excited to work in our office because it's working with the medical staff at a hospital - but nursing is her goal. I just wonder about how diverse her choices seem to be - accounts payable to CDL to nursing - they seem to be at extreme ends of the spectrums for jobs. Boss lady doesn't think it's an issue, but it makes me pause. KaraBoo, I'll speak as someone in that early 50s age range who also has been having issues finding employment. If you've been out long enough or taking crap jobs you keep coming up with ideas that might keep you from living homeless or eating cat food. It sounds like the CDL license is a fallback not a love. The nursing IDK, but she probably has no idea how nursing is changing and its not the ticket to jobs and stability it used to be. Most people 50+ prefer staying in the same job for the long haul. The fact that she stayed 9 years at the other one even though she was bored tells you something. Now, not sure what the downtime comment meant by her but perhaps it is to see if she will be subject to downtime and her finding out if there are useful things she can do besides entertaining herself. I've had jobs that I only had work for 4 hours a day which was to me more stressfull than jobs where it was never possible to get everything done in a day ever. I actually prefer the latter as it gets hard to come up with useful projects day after day months at a time. She's probably worth the risk in so much as I think she'll want to stay if its a halfway decent job more than she is interested in nursing or trucking. She wants work stability IMO.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 27, 2012 12:17:55 GMT -5
For the boss - she means at least 5+ years for long haul. She questioned why my job history seems to be transfers every 3 years and if I was committed to staying in one place for longer than that. She seemed satisfied that my transfers were all recommendations/promotions rather than being flaky about what I want to do.
She has also commented to me in the last couple of months that she's hoping I can be her replacement when she retires in 5-6 years. That's a scary thought!! (Although it's also very affirming and humbling too.)
Kent - I appreciate the comment to go with my instinct on this one. Coworker feels the same way, but doesn't like to upset the cart with the boss when there's a disagreement on how things should be handled. Granted, I could be reading coworker wrong - after all, I've only worked with her 8 months as opposed to the two of them having 20 years history together.
Optimist - on paper, both the current applicant and the other one we interviewed are qualified for the job. They are both around the same age range as well. The 2nd applicant interviewed almost flawlessly and is my preferred choice. However, I don't want to totally dismiss the 1st because of a couple of things that seem "off" to me in the interview. Especially since the boss likes the 1st applicant better. In her words, they "clicked" personality wise.
Neither coworker or I can figure out why the boss likes the 1st better - except for energy level. She (boss) actually commented that she's disappointed that the 2nd interviewed so well because of how much she liked the 1st and it would be an easier decision if that hadn't been the case.
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kent
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Post by kent on Jul 27, 2012 13:09:38 GMT -5
For the boss - she means at least 5+ years for long haul. She questioned why my job history seems to be transfers every 3 years and if I was committed to staying in one place for longer than that. She seemed satisfied that my transfers were all recommendations/promotions rather than being flaky about what I want to do. She has also commented to me in the last couple of months that she's hoping I can be her replacement when she retires in 5-6 years. That's a scary thought!! (Although it's also very affirming and humbling too.) Kent - I appreciate the comment to go with my instinct on this one. Coworker feels the same way, but doesn't like to upset the cart with the boss when there's a disagreement on how things should be handled. Granted, I could be reading coworker wrong - after all, I've only worked with her 8 months as opposed to the two of them having 20 years history together. Optimist - on paper, both the current applicant and the other one we interviewed are qualified for the job. They are both around the same age range as well. The 2nd applicant interviewed almost flawlessly and is my preferred choice. However, I don't want to totally dismiss the 1st because of a couple of things that seem "off" to me in the interview. Especially since the boss likes the 1st applicant better. In her words, they "clicked" personality wise. Neither coworker or I can figure out why the boss likes the 1st better - except for energy level. She (boss) actually commented that she's disappointed that the 2nd interviewed so well because of how much she liked the 1st and it would be an easier decision if that hadn't been the case. Oh boy! FWIW, given there seems to be a preference by the boss, I think I'd put together a list of totally objective positive and negatives for BOTH candidates and then "sleep" on it over the weekend and have a private meeting with the boss to discuss matters. If you can substantiate why applicant #1 is the best pick, you're home free. If not, at least you've got some objective issues to point out why #2 is the better choice. After 20 years, you know your boss better than any of us so, once again, trust your instincts on that front as well. Good luck with this one, you might actually need it!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 27, 2012 13:40:55 GMT -5
Oh boy! FWIW, given there seems to be a preference by the boss, I think I'd put together a list of totally objective positive and negatives for BOTH candidates and then "sleep" on it over the weekend and have a private meeting with the boss to discuss matters. If you can substantiate why applicant #1 is the best pick, you're home free. If not, at least you've got some objective issues to point out why #2 is the better choice. After 20 years, you know your boss better than any of us so, once again, trust your instincts on that front as well. Good luck with this one, you might actually need it! Well - some examples: Question - Hardest Job Assignment question Answers: #1 - reconcilling invoices for individual units in multilevel highrise against work done down to the penny. Difficult because of the multiple invoices that may have been submitted per each item. (Commented that after she did all of this work to prove they needed more money, the architect on the job picked up the phone and requested it - making her feel like the work she put in was pointless if the architect could do it with just a phone call.) #2 - working as a unit secretary in an emergency room department while also billing the same patients for the services received. Difficult because each job requires different skill sets while still maintaining near perfect preformance. (Commented that management actually agreed with her that it was too much for one person after a short amount of time due to quality issues). Question - If you come across a work performance mistake, how do you handle it: Answers: #1 - I take it back to the person who made the mistake to correct. If it's large, I take it to my manager. #2 - I correct the mistake myself if it's minor. If it's a pattern, I talk to the person who made it to find out if it's a training issue or not. If it's large, I get the management involved if I can't handle it myself. Question - How have you improved cost savings and/or time savings in your job: Answers: #1 - I realized everyone would order pens in different shapes, sizes and styles and how many pens we had lying about. I talked to my manager and we set it up that only one person does the ordering for supplies - if you needed something, you talked to him. #2 - Forms that were used to track specific data required by our licensing bearues were inadequate, hard to read and outdated. Without a request from anyone, I revamped the form, made clean copies and distributed. It may just be that one interviews better than the other, but to me, the 2nd applicant gave examples of work that was relevent to our job moreso than the 1st.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jul 27, 2012 13:59:42 GMT -5
...interesting that you would consider her question about down-time a "flag"... I kinda like it... but, full disclosure, I'm apparently old now, if I take this thread to heart... Sorry - should have included more info on why it was a "flag" for me. She also told us she was currently going to class for her CDL license (to help her DH drive a truck route on the weekends) and had applied to nursing school. She's excited to work in our office because it's working with the medical staff at a hospital - but nursing is her goal. I just wonder about how diverse her choices seem to be - accounts payable to CDL to nursing - they seem to be at extreme ends of the spectrums for jobs. Boss lady doesn't think it's an issue, but it makes me pause. I have property and casualty insurance licenses b/c DH is an insurance agent. I got them about 5 years ago, but I have a job in another area. About a year ago I got licensed for Life and Health. They have tried to recruit me to run my own agency but have not gotten me to jump yet. If she drives with her DH, it is not surprising she wants her CDL - I think with a 2nd licensed driver he can drive longer distances. I don't think a CDL is that hard to get or very expensive either. It would take several years to get a nursing degree, so to want to work in the meantime does not surprise me. I used Lotus 1-2-3 on my early jobs. My last emloyer used Excel but used Lotus Notes for e-mail. I think Lotus Notes is also obsolete, but not sure as I have been in a windows environment for so long. Can you test her Excel skills somehow? My DH gets real frustrated with people teilling him they can use windows and then having to train them b/c they were lying too.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jul 27, 2012 14:04:52 GMT -5
Heh. At least she didn't mention Symphony. I remember using that pre-Lotus1-2-3. At least she's being honest and WYSIWYG.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 27, 2012 14:16:13 GMT -5
Oh boy! FWIW, given there seems to be a preference by the boss, I think I'd put together a list of totally objective positive and negatives for BOTH candidates and then "sleep" on it over the weekend and have a private meeting with the boss to discuss matters. If you can substantiate why applicant #1 is the best pick, you're home free. If not, at least you've got some objective issues to point out why #2 is the better choice. After 20 years, you know your boss better than any of us so, once again, trust your instincts on that front as well. Good luck with this one, you might actually need it! Well - some examples: Question - Hardest Job Assignment question Answers: #1 - reconcilling invoices for individual units in multilevel highrise against work done down to the penny. Difficult because of the multiple invoices that may have been submitted per each item. (Commented that after she did all of this work to prove they needed more money, the architect on the job picked up the phone and requested it - making her feel like the work she put in was pointless if the architect could do it with just a phone call.) #2 - working as a unit secretary in an emergency room department while also billing the same patients for the services received. Difficult because each job requires different skill sets while still maintaining near perfect preformance. (Commented that management actually agreed with her that it was too much for one person after a short amount of time due to quality issues). Question - If you come across a work performance mistake, how do you handle it: Answers: #1 - I take it back to the person who made the mistake to correct. If it's large, I take it to my manager. #2 - I correct the mistake myself if it's minor. If it's a pattern, I talk to the person who made it to find out if it's a training issue or not. If it's large, I get the management involved if I can't handle it myself. Question - How have you improved cost savings and/or time savings in your job: Answers: #1 - I realized everyone would order pens in different shapes, sizes and styles and how many pens we had lying about. I talked to my manager and we set it up that only one person does the ordering for supplies - if you needed something, you talked to him. #2 - Forms that were used to track specific data required by our licensing bearues were inadequate, hard to read and outdated. Without a request from anyone, I revamped the form, made clean copies and distributed. It may just be that one interviews better than the other, but to me, the 2nd applicant gave examples of work that was relevent to our job moreso than the 1st. To me it sounds like the second person has been practicing up on their interview skills and how to make the best sounding answer. The answers are just too perfect for me to think anything else. The answers about the mistake by a coworker really are almost the same just the second is much more polished and perfect sounding. So is that really what you want out of the person once they are working for you? I ask because being the perfect interviewee is different from being the perfect employee in my experience.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 27, 2012 14:29:18 GMT -5
Beach - that's why I don't want to totally dismiss the 1st - just because the 2nd may just be a good interviewer. This was only my 3rd panel interview ever - I am usually the one getting interviewed instead of doing the interviewing.
I guess I just prefer the one that had been in high-stress jobs over the one that had to decide which on-line game she's going to play that day. While our job isn't high stress - there is a LOT to be learned and after 8 months, I'm still asking questions due to all of the exceptions to the rules there seems to be. My coworker is also concerned about how she will handle the constant pace of our office along with the high volume of information to be learned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 16:20:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about the CDL license; she said she was getting that to help her husband on the weekends. One of my teaching colleagues is getting his plumber journeyman credentials, but I doubt if he's quitting teaching. I think he just wants something he can do summers and weekends. Certainly, no one is threatened by it.
The nursing ambition is a little problematic. If she is going to work on that part-time, why should you care? Your boss says "someone for the long haul," but no one will have any problem laying this employee off with two weeks notice if that proves necessary to the company's bottom line.
I actually think the candidate has been unemployed, maybe for a year. She is trying to make herself seem relevant (thus, citing her work with her bowling league as being the administrative assistant) and mentioning Lotus in case someone still uses it.
If you aren't impressed, you aren't impressed. But you honestly give the impression that you are looking for reasons not to do a call-back. We complain about people not looking for jobs, but you complain because she is trying too hard.
What was your co-worker's reservation, if you can share? General summary is fine.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 27, 2012 16:28:51 GMT -5
Coworker is concerned about #1 being able to keep up with the hectic pace our office sometimes falls in. She's worried that if #1 is used to playing games all day on her previous job and been out of "real" work since, then it will be hard to adjust to the culture.
She's also worried that the stress of going to nursing school might bleed over into the job and it's stressful enough as is.
While our office itself isn't high in conflict - the customer base we handle can be. She's concerned that #1 might not be able to handle our customers, while candidate #2 has before and is currently (#2 is only working PRN and is looking for a job with more hours).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 20:50:21 GMT -5
Those are all great reasons, KaraBoo.
But there are many people who don't interview well. And she may not go to nursing school. People say stuff.
I have no advice on whom to choose, but don't discount the person who has been unemployed for awhile and is trying hard to be relevant. She may not be.
But the other person may not be either. I would definitely be unemployed if mediocre interviewing skills were held against me. The only thing that ever got me jobs were my credentials were so solid that the school system said, "She must be able to teach or she wouldn't have gotten these evaluations." That sort of thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 23:15:42 GMT -5
typing numbers into an excel spreadsheet does not mean you know how to use excel. if it is critical to the job you should pay a temp agency to test your candidates & screen them for you.
What excel functionality do you know how to use might be a question you ask. they need to rattle off pivot tables, macros, formulas, lookups, conditional formatting . . . all that kind of stuff to know what they really do.
I think you should Google "effective interview" and check out how you want to ask questions to really get the answers you need.
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