On Deuteronomy 22

[Green Eyed Lady]

Of course that hasn't changed, Chiver. I'm not sure how that is pertinent to the discussion we are having. Has anyone said rape is not a horrid violation of the victim?

[chiver78]

Jul 24, 2012 13:57:01 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Of course that hasn't changed, Chiver. I'm not sure how that is pertinent to the discussion we are having. Has anyone said rape is not a horrid violation of the victim?

I'm merely pointing out that it's still a violation. you said in the post I quoted that rape wasn't the same then as it is now, and that's not at all true. the aftermath of rape, and how that victim is treated by society, is what is different. thankfully, we no longer live in a society that thinks it's better to essentially give a female victim to her attacker (yes, I know one just committed suicide elsewhere in the world, as wrong as that whole situation is!! ) but that is not the case here.

by your saying that times have changed and rape is handled differently, but that gay marriage is still wrong, is absolutely cherry-picking what you like out of text. nevermind that the text shouldn't be used as law, but that's another argument entirely.

[thyme4change]

By all means, read which things he, the apostles and the first century Church considered important. What did they say? What did they do? How did they resolve issues of Law? What issues were there? What did Christ himself, Emanuel (meaning "God among us"), and his apostles say on the matters of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, licentiousness?

I remember once on this board saying that I had read the entire new testatment - several times. Either by book in study, or straight through. And I still disagreed with their statement that God says XYZ. They told me that because I was a non-believer I would never get the real meaning, so I was still wrong. I wish I could remember who said that. There is no winning. Unless you completely agree with the person you are speaking with, your intrepretation of the texts is wrong for any number of reasons.

[Green Eyed Lady]

You are the one cherry picking, Chiver, when you know exactly what I meant - or at least should have. I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Especially when you puts words into my mouth. I ask you to find where I said one word about gay marriage. If you wish to debate honestly with me, I'll be glad to do so. If you wish to twist my words and address posts to me that I never made, I'll respectfully decline.

[Opti]

Jul 24, 2012 13:32:34 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

And rape was rape then, the same as it is now. However, we no longer force the rapist to marry his victim, and we should no longer denigrate gays. So they don't procreate. So what? We don't need more freaking people. Time to put that particular bit to rest, in the "That was then and times have changed" box.

That's the whole point. Rape wasn't "rape the same as it is now". Rape is, thankfully, now not a death sentence for a woman. It was then - unless the rapist was forced to support her.

Understood. But given this is currently law in Morocco it is a pretty horrific choice. Immediate death or likely slow death like the Moroccan girl who committed suicide instead of being beaten regularly by the rapist she was forced to marry.

Unless the rapist turns out to be someone her father rejected and loves her anyway it sounds like a pretty horrible life to me.

[chiver78]

Jul 24, 2012 14:05:46 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You are the one cherry picking, Chiver, when you know exactly what I meant - or at least should have. I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Especially when you puts words into my mouth. I ask you to find where I said one word about gay marriage. If you wish to debate honestly with me, I'll be glad to do so. If you wish to twist my words and address posts to me that I never made, I'll respectfully decline.

me, twist? I'm trying to understand how you think it is okay to ignore certain verses in the Bible because they no longer apply. if you'd like to answer me that, I'll continue. if not, no skin off my back.

I cherry-pick nothing from the Bible, because I don't use it to lead my life. have a good day.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Understood. But given this is currently law in Morocco it is a pretty horrific choice. Immediate death or likely slow death like the Moroccan girl who committed suicide instead of being beaten regularly by the rapist she was forced to marry.

Unless the rapist turns out to be someone her father rejected and loves her anyway it sounds like a pretty horrible life to me.

I agree completely. And for some, death is preferable. I certainly understand that.

[Opti]

Jul 24, 2012 13:22:28 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

However, homosexuality is now, was then, and will always be the same thing - sexual desire or behavior towards a persons of the same gender. Nothing has changed in that regard.
--------------------
And rape was rape then, the same as it is now. However, we no longer force the rapist to marry his victim, and we should no longer denigrate gays. So they don't procreate. So what? We don't need more freaking people. Time to put that particular bit to rest, in the "That was then and times have changed" box.

I don't have a concordance so I don't know how many verses against homosexuality speak out against the lack of procreation aspect and the others that just simply say the equivalent 'it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.'

[thyme4change]

What I don't understand is why God wants people to be unhappy. He makes people flawed and then tells them to not act flawed. It is ridiculous.

[Virgil Showlion]

I agree with that post 100%, Virgil. I beleive the spirit of God's message is to love. And in that spirit I beleive there is nothing wrong with two people of the same sex who love eachother.

There is indeed "something wrong" with it. As for the individuals themselves, God has given us His Law, and He reserves judgment. He knows their hearts. He knows the society they grew up in. If there is nobody to tell them "this is wrong" and a thousand souls saying "go for it", He'll take that into account. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that homosexuals cannot or will not be forgiven if they come to repentance.

Sodomy and female-on-female sex, which are the specific acts condemned by scripture, are immoral. They are called a perversion. People's warm, fuzzy feelings do not change this fact. "Love", nor eros, nor erotic feelings, nor feelings of commitment, nor good deeds, nor happy feelings change this fact one iota. It doesn't matter if the individuals are oncologists who jointly discover the cure for cancer. Good works do not "cover" grave misdeeds a la "Curious George". As Isaiah 64:6 reads:

But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind have taken us away.

And God forbid—literally—that I lie to you to make you feel better.

This is a view the western world, drunk with the delusion of humanity's moral grandeur, utterly despises. But anyone here the least bit familiar with scripture knows well that at the end of the age, all but a few men will despise God—who He is, what He stands for; the laws He's placed in effect for our benefit. It's the very essence of our human nature.

[swamp]

God has given us His Law

In an ancient text written by fallible humans in a different language that has been translated from the original script and interpreted by fallible humans.

The only clear law is to love one another and honor God, and calling homosexuals perverts isn't very loving.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2012 14:21:14 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I agree with that post 100%, Virgil. I beleive the spirit of God's message is to love. And in that spirit I beleive there is nothing wrong with two people of the same sex who love eachother.

There is indeed "something wrong" with it. As for the individuals themselves, God has given us His Law, and He reserves judgment. He knows their hearts. He knows the society they grew up in. If there is nobody to tell them "this is wrong" and a thousand souls saying "go for it", He'll take that into account. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that homosexuals cannot or will not be forgiven if they come to repentance.

Sodomy and female-on-female sex, which are the specific acts condemned by scripture, are immoral. They are called a perversion. People's warm, fuzzy feelings do not change this fact. "Love", nor eros, nor erotic feelings, nor feelings of commitment, nor good deeds, nor happy feelings change this fact one iota. It doesn't matter if the individuals are oncologists who jointly discover the cure for cancer. Good works do not "cover" grave misdeeds a la "Curious George". As Isaiah 64:6 reads:

But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind have taken us away.

And God forbid—literally—that I lie to you to make you feel better.

This is a view the western world, drunk with the delusion of humanity's moral grandeur, utterly despises. But anyone here the least bit familiar with scripture knows well that at the end of the age, all but a few men will despise God—who He is, what He stands for; the laws He's placed in effect for our benefit. It's the very essence of our human nature.

Times have changed.

[chiver78]

Jul 24, 2012 14:23:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

God has given us His Law

In an ancient text written by fallible humans in a different language that has been translated from the original script and interpreted by fallible humans.

The only clear law is to love one another and honor God, and calling homosexuals perverts isn't very loving.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2012 14:23:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

God has given us His Law

In an ancient text written by fallible humans in a different language that has been translated from the original script and interpreted by fallible humans.

The only clear law is to love one another and honor God, and calling homosexuals perverts isn't very loving.

Agreed. If the final "Judgement" is God alones then maybe you should just let it be.

[thyme4change]

at the end of the age, all but a few men will despise God—who He is, what He stands for; the laws He's placed in effect for our benefit.

You mean the ones we no longer need to follow - like marrying your brother's widow or marrying a guy that rapes you - because they don't apply?

[Virgil Showlion]

What I don't understand is why God wants people to be unhappy. He makes people flawed and then tells them to not act flawed. It is ridiculous.

Free will is one of the fundamental issues. Too big a can of worms to open here.

Suppose, if you will, that free will is of value, that sin existed before man, and that in order for man to exist with free will in a sinful world, man must be able to sin.

Also consider that every day God gives us is His gift to us. You nor I nor anyone "deserves" to live a day longer. Every emotion, every gift, every good thing comes from Him. We are entitled to absolutely none of it.

When you truly take the notion that "every day is a gift" to heart, and when you accept that God's way of life leads of happiness and fulfillment (note: it does not promise lack of suffering) it changes your perspective. Lacking this perspective, it can be easy to fall into the attitude of "why doesn't..." this, and "God should really do..." that, which are foolish (natural, but foolish) Satanic attitudes. God has given us everything. He gave you the understanding to read this paragraph. He gave you the coffee you're drinking and the computer monitor you're looking at. We don't appreciate it, and most of humanity hates Him for it.

Also consider: the Bible is promising an eternity in God's very family, governing all of creation. I don't care how hard it is not to do x, y or z. Compared to what is being offered, our collective sacrifice is nothing. That's not to say that the sacrifice isn't incredibly difficult and painful, but compare any finite amount of suffering to an infinite reward, and the inequality ends up notably lopsided.

[thyme4change]

Free will is one of the fundamental issues.

Yes - I guess this is of debatable nature too. Are you born gay? If so, wouldn't that 'birth defect' come from God, since he created us? So, why is he making people "wrong" and then telling them not to be themselves? It is just mean.

[Virgil Showlion]

My detractors seem to be popping up like daisies.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to thank Ms. Green Eyed Lady for her support, thank others for their respectful dissent, and take my leave for a while.

It is just mean.

It isn't if you can overcome it, and grow by overcoming.

And you can always overcome, with God's help, should you choose to. That's a Biblical promise.

As I've said in other threads, homosexuality isn't the least of things people have had to overcome.

Drug addition, alcohol addition, greed, bigotry, predispositions to violence, abusive parents, extreme poverty, peer pressure, arrogance, apathy, laziness, sophistry, ethnic or personal hatred, unwillingness to forgive, selfishness, and every other manner of temptation imaginable.

[Deleted]

Good debate!

[Jaguar]

Ya know in my spiritual studies what became the BIG LESSON was this. Love is the B all and the END all. To what degree do you love, that's all that matters. Namaste Everyone.

[thyme4change]

Well, I've now gotten three answers to that question. The first answer is that it is a chosen lifestyle and not a physical anamoly. The second is that we aren't to question God on why. His greater purpose makes people flawed for a reason, and we aren't allowed to understand. And now a third answer: I'm outnumbered, so I wish to leave. I like answer #3 the best.

[Green Eyed Lady]

LOL!! Virgil wouldn't be outnumbered if he were 1 against 100.

[thyme4change]

Drug addition, alcohol addition, greed, bigotry, predispositions to violence, abusive parents, extreme poverty, peer pressure, arrogance, apathy, laziness, sophistry, ethnic or personal hatred, unwillingness to forgive, selfishness, and every other manner of temptation imaginable.

Some of those are things that spring out of other people's free will, and the rest have more roots in nuture over nature. I don't think they have found the "arrogance" gene yet.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2012 14:38:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

My detractors seem to be popping up like daisies.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to thank Ms. Green Eyed Lady for her support, thank others for their respectful dissent, and take my leave for a while.

It is just mean.

It isn't if you can overcome it, and grow by overcoming.

And you can always overcome, with God's help, should you choose to. That's a Biblical promise.

As I've said in other threads, homosexuality isn't the least of things people have had to overcome.

Drug addition, alcohol addition, greed, bigotry, predispositions to violence, abusive parents, extreme poverty, peer pressure, arrogance, apathy, laziness, sophistry, ethnic or personal hatred, unwillingness to forgive, selfishness, and every other manner of temptation imaginable.

[thyme4change]

Is that a cock?

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2012 14:51:48 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Is that a cock?

Ya, a big one too.

[thyme4change]

LOL

[chiver78]

wow. way to derail a thread.

[Green Eyed Lady]

There is a 4th option.

#4: Virgil decided not to waste any more time watching what was supposed to be an adult debate thread degenerate into a totally immature, junior high-ish giggle fest.

I'm only throwing that out there because its the option that works for me!!

Peace to ya all!

[Virgil Showlion]

I don't think they have found the "arrogance" gene yet.

By the time you've hit puberty, if you're attracted to the same sex, then you're attracted to the same sex. The cause is irrelevant (excepting the actions you yourself have deliberately taken to exacerbate the problem).

Alcoholism is a strongly heritable trait. An alcoholic is still an alcoholic.

Victims of pedophiles grow up to be pedophiles themselves with alarming frequency. No nature involved. No genetic predisposition of any kind, as far as I know. A pedophile is still a pedophile.

And now a third answer: I'm outnumbered, so I wish to leave. I like answer #3 the best.

I'm trying to answer questions (such as right now), and new issues keep popping up faster than I can answer existing ones.

Really, I prefer spiritual discussions on a one-to-one basis, not a one-on-fourteen basis where my audience is hostile (ideologically hostile) and my hands are cramping for sake of typing.

(There! That's it! If I don't refresh the page, I'll have "caught up" with this reply! A-a-a-a-a-and I'm OUT! ;D)