Liberal vs. Conservative Ideology

[robinking]

Much is being said and debated in the public about these two political concepts. There are some very well educated folks on both sides, along with some well intentioned and caring people. Then there are the sheep on both sides who follow talking points as if this is some game. "Us", "we", "they"... as if when their side wins they receive a prize in the mail. It's similar to a Packers fan saying "we're gonna beat Pittsburgh!". What do YOU win in the end? Bragging rights? In the case of Liberals, more entitlement spending or Conservatives, lower taxes?

Here we are, in dire economic straits, with states actually considering bankruptcy and people are still Liberal. It's akin to a Liberal family that brings in $100,000 a year and lives a $140,000 a year lifestyle. Add to this, they have promised the kids college and a nice starter home. Well, the kids are seniors in high school and the bread winner just took a pay cut. Here's two scenarios:

The Liberal family will look for any free handouts they can find. Hold a grudge on their shoulder as it was everyone's fault their hours were cut but their own. The kids would lash out because mom & dad promised me college at Harvard, so they BETTER find the money! Take out a loan, borrow from the richer neighbors (with no intention of repaying), take money from my twin sister's college fund... I don't care, my union, I mean family contract said I get to go to college! Never mind there is no money in the account. Mom & dad put IOUs in there, so the trust fund is good! I don't care how or where the money comes from, YOU MADE A PROMISE TO ME! It's not my fault you lied or couldn't do math!!!!

A Conservative family would simply, cut the food budget, maybe drop the thermostat a few degrees, drop HBO and tell the kids they're going to have to get a part-time job and go to community college for the first two years. They can live at home, but if they disrespect the rules... they're out! These kids may be disappointed, but they RESPECT their parents and will be better adjusted after they earn their degree themselves!

I have no issue with unions. They have brought about better working conditions, pay and benefits... but their leadership abused their power and have directly lead to our economic collapse. Unions used their clout to elect leaders who use emotion instead of math! They made ridiculous promises that they knew wouldn't work, but that got them short term prosperity and power. Now, the states that have been run with CONSERVATIVE ideology and that are in the black, will have to bail out the Liberal states. To the Liberals I ask this; if your ideology is so great, why are all the "blue states" broke and many "red states" not? How do you blame Conservatives for this?

[ugonow]

why are all the "blue states" broke and many "red states" not?

For the same reason there are more red states than blue that take more ffrom the fed pot than they give. Blue states tend to include large city settings,that produce both fed tax revenue and the need for huge amounts of money for unconstitutional mandates for federal programs and services. Red states tend to be more rural,with less of a revenue tax base for the fed,but also less of a need for money for the unconstitutional mandates .

[rockon]

Good post robinking

[robinking]

Jan 28, 2011 9:15:37 GMT -5 ugonow said:

why are all the "blue states" broke and many "red states" not?

For the same reason there are more red states than blue that take more ffrom the fed pot than they give. Blue states tend to include large city settings,that produce both fed tax revenue and the need for huge amounts of money for unconstitutional mandates for federal programs and services. Red states tend to be more rural,with less of a revenue tax base for the fed,but also less of a need for money for the unconstitutional mandates .

You have got to be kidding me. Are you saying Detroit is a NET payer of taxes? It's a financial sinkhole! I'd love to see your math on this one. If you're correct and red states get more federal dollars than they pay, how come liberal media sources haven't driven this home? Proof speaks louder than talking points. If you want me to produce proof, I'll be glad to... but my points have be getting proven by the media for the past few years.

[Deleted]

Blue states have consistently 'bailed out'/covered red states for decades.
www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html
www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
I'm sure now, though, as the red states have to rely less on the blue, they will just buckle down...


Robinking... I'm always called a liberal, but my approach to life is much closer to the one you describe as conservative... of course, we do have some hippie, back to basics, simplicity stock on our side as well

[ugonow]

Hard to believe conservative states suck at the feds teat worse than lib states,but there it is.... but the reason is because of the fact conservative states tend to be less populated and rural,compared to lib states that tend to have some pretty large cities,which is the same reason they are broke.They have to cough up more for services and fed programs.

[robinking]

Jan 28, 2011 9:24:39 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

But, I would go beyond that as well. Liberals view the world as one limited pie that needs to be distributed all around in little tiny slices or the world will run out. Conservatives think that lots of pies can be made and produced and are intent on making and producing them. Since liberals think there is only one pie, there is no incentive to go out and try to make another one because in their view it simply isn't possible.

Exactly!

But, this observation and example of mine will get the usual Liberal talking points thrown at it. Maybe even a few socialist drive bys for entertainment. I don't use emotion in my decision making. It would be great for everyone to have:
1. Free healthcare
2. Free housing
3. Free food
4. Free internet

BUT, someone must provide these items.
1. I must work for free to give you free healthcare (I'm a doctor)
2. Laborers must build your house for free
3. Farmers must grow your food for free
4. Microsoft must give you a computer

So many more examples. LIFE ISN'T FAIR! I want a bigger home, but the market tanked and I'm under water. So, I have made my home energy efficient and plan to live here for 50 years. Guess what... I'm happy. I want steak for dinner every night, but if everyone feels the same, the price will rise. Oh wait... the government can just put a price limit on it! No... then no farmer will produce it since it will cost more than it's worth for them to provide it. FREE MARKET! I bought a pint of raspberries the other day for $3.48. I can afford it, but many can't. Ultimately, when the cost is higher than the market will bare, producers will simply decrease supply. Example:

At $2.00 raspberries sell as much as are produced. So, if the farmers can bring them to market for $1.00, then they make a profit. BUT, when gas and other costs such as labor, Obamacare, liability make the cost to the farmer $3.00, but the market will only bare $3.48... the farmer now only makes a $.48 profit. He/she will look for better revenue sources and the market loses tasty raspberries! But, let government get involved and see what happens!

Look at Cuba Liberals. They're cutting their public workforce by 500,000 and telling these folks to start a PRIVATE business!!!! CUBA! They're going to be more capitalist than we are someday! Capitalism may have flaws as innocent people are wronged, but tell me a better way to have accessible raspberries to all! The USSR had lines for toilet paper. Unless you had a raspberry bush in your communal garden, no berries. My cousin lived in a commune at the University of Michigan with like minded socialist liberals. SHE HATED IT! For every one person who cleaned, bought food or whatever, there were 3 who only TOOK!!!!!! My God Liberals, wake up!

[robinking]

Jan 28, 2011 9:42:54 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Hard to believe conservative states suck at the feds teat worse than lib states,but there it is.... but the reason is because of the fact conservative states tend to be less populated and rural,compared to lib states that tend to have some pretty large cities,which is the same reason they are broke.They have to cough up more for services and fed programs.

Thanks for the info... I will adjust my talking points. This is wrong then. This is redistribution of wealth that so-called conservatives hate. How can this happen and not be a topic of discussion when states like mine are belittled?

[ugonow]

The talking point that conservatives don't take fed handouts is bull. I consider myself a conservative and know many conservatives that have recieved federal assitance. Ever go down south?That is one big fed handout. That talking point makes us look stupid,imo.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Federal money will flow to states that have more federal facilities and land(like national parks), military bases and what not. These are agencies that are doing actual work.
Blue states notably have high social services mandates, and are also those states facing bankruptcy and pension problems. These types of govt agencies contribute nothing to growth of the economy.

[Deleted]

Jan 28, 2011 8:59:03 GMT -5 robinking said:

Then there are the sheep on both sides who follow talking points as if this is some game.

Are we to assume that this is where you fall?

[Deleted]

I know of no liberals who think everyone should have free healthcare, housing, food or internet... (although i know a few 'conservative' people who get just that from the state!)....

Again, you are being way too 'extreme' in your statements.

I believe in a social safety net. This is for basic needs, and i think that currently our programming is probably not basic enough. I like some programs better than others (ie. prefer WIC to food stamps). I believe the government should be the employer of last resort resulting in 100% employment. I believe we need to constantly work to keep the system as efficient as possible. I believe that in a cost benefits analysis, having such a net saves us ALL, and provides us ALL with a better standard of living, and does more to preserve our system of government, than not having it...

But that isn't at all what you said i believe...

You want to remove the government from all agriculture? laudable.. i'm not sure you'll like the immediate results, but long term we may be able to build back. I assume we can keep the regulatory structure though?... I kind of like feeling my food is at least as minimally safe as we currently make it...

Where do you stand on corporate welfare?

[jkapp]

Jan 28, 2011 9:42:54 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Hard to believe conservative states suck at the feds teat worse than lib states,but there it is.... but the reason is because of the fact conservative states tend to be less populated and rural,compared to lib states that tend to have some pretty large cities,which is the same reason they are broke.They have to cough up more for services and fed programs.

Actually if you look at what federal dollars pay for, the bulk is SS and Medicare...so for old, retired people. I think what that says is the Blue states' state and local tax structures are so confiscatory and high (property taxes especially) that old, retired people cannot afford to stay there comfortably...so they end up moving to red states that have a lower tax structure. Their retirement dollars last them longer and less gets taken by confiscatory governments to be wasted on bs programs.

[ugonow]

Are you saying those recieving unconstitutional redistribution programs tend to live in conservative states,jkpp?

[Deleted]

Federal money will flow to states that have more federal facilities and land(like national parks), military bases and what not.

Do you have any data that says red states have more federal facilities and military bases than blue ones? ...
And since national parks are a discretionary spending catagory... i guess we'll be cutting that off... so no worries there...

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Where do you stand on corporate welfare?

That is crony capitalism. Ask DemogagueInMaine. The company he started and runs, depends heavily on govt spending.

Hey, Dem, you know I love you man...

[ugonow]

Are national parks even constitutional? Seems like land consfication to me and a huge waste of money.

[ugonow]

The company he started and runs, depends heavily on govt spending.

Good Lord,millions of companies do directly or indirectly.That is not cronyism.That is private enterprise providing a good or service.The alternative is communism,where the government produces the goods and provides the service themselves.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Do you have any data that says red states have more federal facilities and military bases than blue ones? ...
And since national parks are a discretionary spending catagory... i guess we'll be cutting that off... so no worries there...

I think the park service is already having funding issues.
The national highway system also runs throught the heart of the country and also require upkeep.
I found this link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#By_state.2Fdistrict

[Deleted]

I think what that says : But just because you think so... doesn't mean it is so...

Here is a link ceic.mt.gov/EstimatesStatePop.asp If you go to the Population By Selected Age Groups it will give you an excel sheet... it didn't have percentages, i had to add a formula row, but it doesn't look like there is much of a range as far as over 65 as a factor of total population from state to state...

Let me know if you find something more. thanks.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Good Lord,millions of companies do directly or indirectly.That is not cronyism.That is private enterprise providing a good or service.The alternative is communism,where the government produces the goods and provides the service themselves.

Crony Capitalism is a buddy-buddy way of doing business and getting favors and hand outs. I am not talking about regular govt vendors like suppliers and firms like IT contractors and what not.
Crony Cap, is about massive govt boondoggles.

[ugonow]

a buddy-buddy way of doing business and getting favors and hand outs

This isn't going to lead into a Haliburton thing,is it?

[jarhead1976]

Bernanke , Paulson , Republican. The TSA started by the "smaller" government republican party! See any correlation between greed and hypocrisy!

[robinking]

I'm not a Republican. I'm not for corporate handouts. I'm not for political paybacks via contracts, bases, pork... I'm for fiscal discipline! I'm for personal responsibility and letting people fail. I'm for helping the helpless, but not the lazy! I'm for providing people access to healthcare, food, education and teaching them to help themselves, but not just handing them freebie after freebie!

I heard a student socialist on a bull horn at Wayne State University in Detroit saying "we deserve a free education, free food, free housing, free healthcare..." Yes, this is an extremest, but this is the end game of Liberal ideology. Liberals who are fiscally conservative need to become Libertarians like me. I say government needs to stay out of moral issues. I have my moral beliefs, but they may conflict with someone else's beliefs, so who decides how to legislate?

I just had a long debate with right wing republicans about civil unions and they are hypocrites. They denounce big government, until they need the government to legislate morality and safety. Big Brother is strangling our freedom and both extremes are allowing it. My freedoms are being taken and I'm tired of it.

[Deleted]

Ok... here is a source that actually has % for population over 65 by state, and it doesn't look like a large range, and no red/blue pattern... so much for that hypothesis jkapp

www.proximityone.com/st003065.htm

[marjar]

I have no issue with unions. They have brought about better working conditions, pay and benefits... but their leadership abused their power and have directly lead to our economic collapse.

I also think unions abused their power, became corrupt, and contributed to the demise and or downfall of some industries.

[jarhead1976]

I am too, not unlike most Americans. Tired of working long days to pay for those that do not. Tired of a bloated government. Impotent in its own size. The powers that be depend on keeping people divided , I am a Republican. Fed up period with Bank corruption and a to large to fail government that over regulates. I am Free! With Greatest Respects to you Robin.

[swamp]

Jan 28, 2011 10:24:45 GMT -5 robinking said:

I heard a student socialist on a bull horn at Wayne State University in Detroit saying "we deserve a free education, free food, free housing, free healthcare..." quote]

Just wait until graduates from school and has to get a job. I used to be much more "liberal" too, until I became a business owner.

[billisonboard]

Jan 28, 2011 9:43:18 GMT -5 robinking said:

Jan 28, 2011 9:24:39 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

...My God Liberals, wake up!

Your prize is in the mail

Go Packers.

[swamp]

Jan 28, 2011 10:24:45 GMT -5 robinking said:

I just had a long debate with right wing republicans about civil unions and they are hypocrites. They denounce big government, until they need the government to legislate morality and safety. Big Brother is strangling our freedom and both extremes are allowing it. My freedoms are being taken and I'm tired of it.

Hypocracy at its best. I want the government out of my life until I think the two gay guys next door are icky and I don't want them to get married because it will threaten my marriage. Really?!