Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 14:29:40 GMT -5
Where the hell did I say anything about sex? It's not about sex. It's about having time as a couple without a baby being attached to one of you. Sure maybe it's just a few minutes before you both pass out from lack of sleep, but it's better than nothing. Babies nap, so even if they're sleeping in between you at night you can have sex every day if you want. Assuming you can get your cosleep kid to nap without you that is.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 18, 2012 14:34:03 GMT -5
There is a huge biological component to moms bonding with their babies. I doubt we would have survived as a species if this weren't the case.
However, both spouses need to work their butts off when they have a newborn to show their spouse that they are still appreciated for being a spouse and a person, as well as a great mommy or daddy.
Why is it all the women's fault if the marriage is struggling? Isn't that the theme--that the wife forgot her wifely duties and that sunk the marriage? No mention of husbands that only change 1 diaper a day, and forget to let wife have some child and spouse free moments.
I feel really bad for people who can't see that this is a joint effort.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 14:34:11 GMT -5
True. He should be man enough to end the marriage before he has sex with somebody else. Period. That goes both ways, obviously.
You probably should. If you start ignoring your spouse they'll find somebody who won't. In a perfect world they'd move heaven and earth to reconnect with you first, and address your issues before they got to that point. None of us live in that world though, so the more likely scenario is that your spouse (male or female by the way, so calm down with the sexist stuff) will internalize and bottle up a lot of the frustration and look for comfort outside of you before you really understand the extent of the problem.
I really don't see that it's that big of a stretch for both statements to be totally valid. You've never known a couple where one partner cheated and it was only a surprise to the cheated on spouse, with everyone else seeing it coming a mile off based on how they treated the cheating spouse? I've seen it over and over.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 14:36:04 GMT -5
That being said that does not mean that you automatically have to become one of those mothers the moment you see two pink lines. I've been determined from day one that my marriage comes above everything else.generally, the male sex drive is higher than the female sex drive. IN GENERAL. If people would limit themselves to saying THAT, I wouldn't have an issue. It's true. But you know me and sexist generalities - and this particular one always seems to translate into this ridiculous image of ALL WOMENKIND AS FRIGID HARPIES WHO HATE SEX. I find that incredibly annoying. Where the hell did I say anything about sex? It's not about sex. It's about having time as a couple without a baby being attached to one of you.Maybe I was reading too much into your post, but plenty of other people have said on this thread that sex suffers with co-sleeping, and you were talking about physical distance... so if I was overreaching, I apologize. Basically, your post came across to me as "if you co-sleep, you're starving your husband of sex/affection even if he says he doesn't mind and you should be prepared for him to cheat on you."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 14:37:38 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us. Marriages do recover but I think a lot of guys feel the way Dark does. DH feels like I love him when I have sex with him. It might seem silly but it's the case. I miss holding hands with DH. It's pretty rare these days. Hopefully it'll happen more often as DS gets older.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 14:39:47 GMT -5
I have seen it - but I'm not sure why the assumption that it's the woman driving the man away. (Yeah yeah, you said it could go for either sex, but you're only talking about women in this thread).
That was how I took it, as well. (And I'm not pregnant, no kids, so I don't really have a dog in this fight).
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 18, 2012 14:39:50 GMT -5
Where the hell did I say anything about sex? It's not about sex. It's about having time as a couple without a baby being attached to one of you. Sure maybe it's just a few minutes before you both pass out from lack of sleep, but it's better than nothing. Babies nap, so even if they're sleeping in between you at night you can have sex every day if you want. Assuming you can get your cosleep kid to nap without you that is. Did you just do a complete 180? I feel like this is what I've been trying to say all along. It really isn't that hard, or at least it seemed very natural to us, but maybe that's because I'm used to dh working nights so our schedules were different anyway.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 18, 2012 14:40:01 GMT -5
If people would limit themselves to saying THAT, I wouldn't have an issue. It's true. But you know me and sexist generalities - and this particular one always seems to translate into this ridiculous image of ALL WOMENKIND AS FRIGID HARPIES WHO HATE SEX. I find that incredibly annoying.
Ooo... Even better the fact that my DH and I don't have sex is all my fault. Nevermind that in 8 years together I have turned him down only a handful of times and every single time i was sick. I was turned down a handful of times this last weekend ALONE. But the prevailing thought is that it must be all my fault.
Anyway, I'm done. Not everyone's marrriage or life fits into neat little stereotypes.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 14:40:33 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us.
And this is part of the reason why it is SO important to me that DH and I continue sleeping in the same bed. It never even occurred to me to do it any other way. If we can't sleep in the same bed with the baby, we will figure something else out - but my husband and I belong in the same bed at night. End of story.
I'm really, really surprised at this presumption that women usually just kick out the husband if there's a co-sleeping conflict.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 18, 2012 14:42:06 GMT -5
There is a huge biological component to moms bonding with their babies. I doubt we would have survived as a species if this weren't the case
True but the notion that ONLY mom bonds with baby and therefore we need to focus 100% of our attention is an outdated notion that needs to die already.
More and more research is coming out that it is equally as important for fathers to bond with their babies and that they undergo similar changes as mothers when bonding.
Evolutionarily speaking human babies are designed to be taken care of by both parents.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 18, 2012 14:42:29 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us. And this is part of the reason why it is SO important to me that DH and I continue sleeping in the same bed. It never even occurred to me to do it any other way. If we can't sleep in the same bed with the baby, we will figure something else out - but my husband and I belong in the same bed at night. End of story. I'm really, really surprised at this presumption that women usually just kick out the husband if there's a co-sleeping conflict. My DH wasn't sleeping in bed with me to begin with...... but i'm sure that is my fault.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 18, 2012 14:44:18 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us. Marriages do recover but I think a lot of guys feel the way Dark does. DH feels like I love him when I have sex with him. It might seem silly but it's the case. I miss holding hands with DH. It's pretty rare these days. Hopefully it'll happen more often as DS gets older. That's a great post Anne and I agree. I also think it is just as much the husbands responsibility to communicate and help figure out how everyones needs can be met. It can't all be on wife to take care of the baby, the house, AND her man but that is how many women feel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 14:44:17 GMT -5
And this is part of the reason why it is SO important to me that DH and I continue sleeping in the same bed. But life happens and shit intervenes. DS had colic, DH had to go to school, sometimes one or the other of us were sick, and we both got better sleep by being separate. Sometimes there's no great choices, just the best of bad ones. I agree with everything you are saying in principal - the relationship between spouses is super important. In practice, between day to day survival, exhaustion, health and baby needs, and the massive realignment in priorities, it can be difficult to accomplish.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 14:44:26 GMT -5
And where did we get the idea that not sleeping in the same bed = zero attention paid?
I know a couple of couples who have had separate sleeping arrangements for years - usually due to snoring issues. AFAIK, their sex lives haven't been affected, and none of them are divorced yet, so I guess it works.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 18, 2012 14:45:45 GMT -5
I'm really, really surprised at this presumption that women usually just kick out the husband if there's a co-sleeping conflict. I think it has something to do with the logistics of breastfeeding. As I said earlier, we didn't cosleep because neither of us was comfortable with it. But a lot of people gave me one or both of the following bits of advice when I was zombing my way though work and life due to bfing in the middle of the night: 1. have DH bring the baby to you and 2. co sleep.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 14:46:49 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us. Marriages do recover but I think a lot of guys feel the way Dark does. DH feels like I love him when I have sex with him. It might seem silly but it's the case. I miss holding hands with DH. It's pretty rare these days. Hopefully it'll happen more often as DS gets older. yes, yes, yes to all of this. DS is almost a year old and we are still going through this.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 18, 2012 14:47:34 GMT -5
DH really struggled with feeling like he lost his wife after DS was born. Between the lack of sleep, sleeping at separate times and in separate rooms, DS' constant demands, the lack of adult time and intimacy, it was really hard for us. Marriages do recover but I think a lot of guys feel the way Dark does. DH feels like I love him when I have sex with him. It might seem silly but it's the case. I miss holding hands with DH. It's pretty rare these days. Hopefully it'll happen more often as DS gets older. That's a great post Anne and I agree. I also think it is just as much the husbands responsibility to communicate and help figure out how everyones needs can be met. It can't all be on wife to take care of the baby, the house, AND her man but that is how many women feel. Yes and it damn near broke me trying to do it all.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 18, 2012 14:48:30 GMT -5
There is a huge biological component to moms bonding with their babies. I doubt we would have survived as a species if this weren't the caseTrue but the notion that ONLY mom bonds with baby and therefore we need to focus 100% of our attention is an outdated notion that needs to die already. More and more research is coming out that it is equally as important for fathers to bond with their babies and that they undergo similar changes as mothers when bonding. Evolutionarily speaking human babies are designed to be taken care of by both parents. Agreed. From my experience bonding with ds was super easy and I chalk it up to hormones and biology. DH absolutely bonded as well, but he wasn't naturally on the same sleep schedule, baby couldn't smell him, etc. DH and I approached being parents together, and I'm sure we did put 'us' on hold as we were so focused on the 3 of us. Doesn't mean we stopped caring about each other, although it did stop us from communicating in the same language for a bit.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 18, 2012 14:49:56 GMT -5
the relationship between spouses is super important. In practice, between day to day survival, exhaustion, health and baby needs, and the massive realignment in priorities, it can be difficult to accomplish. I agree. Then with hormonal problems our sex life was pretty much non-existent till around 18 months when I stopped BF_ing completely. DH was completely on board with me though, he said that breastfeeding was more important than sex. I am sure he was really being passive aggressive though and counting down the days till it was acceptable to cheat on me. We tried our best to stay connected but that first year was a doozy. However we survived it, marriage in tact. Even without regular sex, without regular time together. If you can't weather new parenthood without going off to chase tail to meet your "needs" then you shouldn't have had kids.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 18, 2012 14:51:29 GMT -5
the relationship between spouses is super important. In practice, between day to day survival, exhaustion, health and baby needs, and the massive realignment in priorities, it can be difficult to accomplish. I agree. Then with hormonal problems our sex life was pretty much non-existent till around 18 months when I stopped BF_ing completely. DH was completely on board with me though, he said that breastfeeding was more important than sex. I am sure he was really being passive aggressive though and counting down the days till it was acceptable to cheat on me. We tried our best to stay connected but that first year was a doozy. However we survived it, marriage in tact. Even without regular sex, without regular time together. If you can't weather new parenthood without going off to chase tail to meet your "needs" then you shouldn't have had kids.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 14:52:04 GMT -5
I agree with everything you are saying in principal - the relationship between spouses is super important. In practice, between day to day survival, exhaustion, health and baby needs, and the massive realignment in priorities, it can be difficult to accomplish.
Oh, I agree. I'm not saying that it's going to work exactly like I think it will - I'm pretty sure having a baby will be NOTHING like I think it will, which is why I'm not really bothering myself about researching various mommy war topics. I'm just going with what feels best.
But the point is, unless they do a lobotomy on me at the hospital I am not going to instantly forget my husband and our partnership because we have a daughter. We're having a daughter BECAUSE of our partnership. She's supposed to complete our family, not wreck it.
I'm very against this insulting implication that women have to choose - either they love their kids or they love their spouse. There is no right answer to that, because it's the WRONG QUESTION.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 18, 2012 14:54:58 GMT -5
I'm very against this insulting implication that women have to choose - either they love their kids or they love their spouseWell it really does depend on the day. If I am pissed at Dh I love Gwen more. If I am pissed at Gwen I love him more.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 14:55:24 GMT -5
It's the best of bad options. Putting a cosleep kid in their own bed for the first time when they aren't ready, is a nightmare. They'll cry all night long, so none of you get any sleep. The first several times I slept on the couch I did it voluntarily. The three of us didn't fit comfortably in the bed, so I got better sleep on the couch. After a while it happened more and more often. After a couple months of sleeping apart fairly often, not having much time to ourselves, etc., that comes with a new baby, you start to feel more like a room mate than a husband.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 14:58:19 GMT -5
The first several times I slept on the couch I did it voluntarily. The three of us didn't fit comfortably in the bed, so I got better sleep on the couch. After a while it happened more and more often. After a couple months of sleeping apart fairly often, not having much time to ourselves, etc., that comes with a new baby, you start to feel more like a room mate than a husband.
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like co-sleeping is something you decided to do TOGETHER. And then when it wasn't working out, you started sleeping on the couch. So how exactly were you "relegated to the couch"? You went there of your own free will, as a result of a choice you made with your wife. I understand that co-sleeping was bad for your relationship, but it sounds like you're blaming Loop for the fact that it didn't work, because she put the baby first.
And maybe that was your experience, but I am not understanding how "co sleeping didn't work for us and created distance" becomes this whole theory on how women only pay attention to their babies from the moment they get knocked up.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 18, 2012 15:01:18 GMT -5
I think every marriage goes thru a roommate phase when you have a new baby. Your life pretty much revolves around eating, sleeping and pooping. If you are working, that too.
But neither DH or I ran out to get some tail because we weren't getting our "needs" met. We discussed it like freaking adults and did our best when we could and trusted that even when we could not, we still loved each other.
If you can't handle the cosmic shift that comes with parenting without running into the arms of another person then you should not have kids. And I really doubt the marriage was picture perfect to begin with if that is your solution to not getting your needs met.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 15:01:21 GMT -5
And yet look at the women in here saying that the baby isn't going to impact their relationship with their husbands in the first place. The guy can feel like he get lied too to a certain extent. "Don't worry honey we'll still spend lots of time together and you'll still be a priority even after the little one arrives." 18 months later the dude hasn't spent 2 hours alone with his wife in over 6 months, practically the only time they talk is to argue about who's turn it is to change a diaper, and their little bundle of joy spends more time crying, making a mess, trying to take a header off whatever piece of furniture they can climb on, or swallow every dangerous object within 20 yards than they do being cute and cuddly while you all snuggle and watch a movie.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 18, 2012 15:01:22 GMT -5
See, that's what I suspected - and that's what I think USUALLY happens. Though I'm sure there are some women who say "Get the F out of here!" I'd say that's the minority. Which is why I'm not understanding why it's presumed to be the woman's fault when all intimacy is lost. Does the guy have zero responsibility to speak up if he thinks there's a problem? It takes two to tango. And maybe I'm taking your posts more harshly than I should, since I'm one of those hyper-literal women who can't take a hint... but I'd be pretty damn pissed if DH retreated to the couch voluntarily, told me he thought co-sleeping was fine, and then blamed me for not paying enough attention to him because I was busy with the baby. ETA - Firebird beat me to it, shocker.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 18, 2012 15:02:28 GMT -5
It's the best of bad options. Putting a cosleep kid in their own bed for the first time when they aren't ready, is a nightmare. They'll cry all night long, so none of you get any sleep. The first several times I slept on the couch I did it voluntarily. The three of us didn't fit comfortably in the bed, so I got better sleep on the couch. After a while it happened more and more often. After a couple months of sleeping apart fairly often, not having much time to ourselves, etc., that comes with a new baby, you start to feel more like a room mate than a husband. Or you find another way to deal with it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2012 15:04:28 GMT -5
My kids are over a decade old. Nobody had ever even heard of cosleeping when ours were little. It wasn't something you tried to plan out before you even got pregnant like it is now. Back then it was just breastfeeding/formula, and whether or not you got an epi during delivery. We started cosleeping because Loop would breastfeed at night and either fall asleep doing it, or Mo would go back to sleep better in our bed than her crib. Once the kiddo got into that habit it grew, our bed didn't, and the best way for all of us to sleep was with me in a different room.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 18, 2012 15:05:14 GMT -5
And yet look at the women in here saying that the baby isn't going to impact their relationship with their husbands in the first place. The guy can feel like he get lied too to a certain extent. "Don't worry honey we'll still spend lots of time together and you'll still be a priority even after the little one arrives." 18 months later the dude hasn't spent 2 hours alone with his wife in over 6 months, practically the only time they talk is to argue about who's turn it is to change a diaper, and their little bundle of joy spends more time crying, making a mess, trying to take a header off whatever piece of furniture they can climb on, or swallow every dangerous object within 20 yards than they do being cute and cuddly while you all snuggle and watch a movie. How is this all the wife's fault again? You think that's what we signed up for and that we're happy the first several months can turn into that? You want 2 hours alone with your wife then schedule it. Don't sit and wait for her to do it when she's got just as much going on as you do.
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