Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 15:59:46 GMT -5
BTW, Svetlana was 17 in that video - so clearly well into or almost past puberty. As tall as she is, she's only 5'5" though. If I've seen any gymnasts taller than she was, I admit I can't recall them.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:01:01 GMT -5
Yeah - that's my point. "Tall" has a totally different definition in gymnastics. She is 5'5" - There are not a lot of groups of people that consider that to be a tall woman.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:02:07 GMT -5
Yeah - that's my point. "Tall" has a totally different definition in gymnastics. She is 5'5" - There are not a lot of groups of people that consider that to be a tall woman.
This is true. 5'5" is very tall in gymnastics (see my last post).
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2012 16:04:00 GMT -5
I trained in gymnastics for many years and it retarded my growth and a lot of other things. It's very damaging to your health and body. So not worth it. When my son wrestled, I watched him like a hawk because I knew what those coaches were capable of.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:04:27 GMT -5
Did any of the biographies you have read about all these gals say if they were getting their period? I know a lady who was an elite athlete and she said she didn't really start all the normal cycles until she was done with sports, and she didn't even get her first period until she was 16 or something.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2012 16:06:32 GMT -5
That's part of it. But the least of it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:07:53 GMT -5
Did any of the biographies you have read about all these gals say if they were getting their period? I know a lady who was an elite athlete and she said she didn't really start all the normal cycles until she was done with sports, and she didn't even get her first period until she was 16 or something.
I think that might be a side effect of the physical training and the innate stress on the body, not necessarily an indication that all elite gymnasts are starving to death. There's actually not as much anorexia in elite gymnastics as one might expect; you cannot train adequately if you're not eating enough.
That's not to say they're not undernourished, but undernourished and anorexic aren't the same thing. Most Americans are undernourished.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:09:17 GMT -5
I trained in gymnastics for many years and it retarded my growth and a lot of other things. It's very damaging to your health and body. So not worth it. When my son wrestled, I watched him like a hawk because I knew what those coaches were capable of.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, zib. It isn't always that way. I had many happy years in gymnastics and my coaches were wonderful people. It doesn't have to damage your body and health. Really selfish people can ruin almost anything good for kids, and it can happen in any sport.
I'd be THRILLED if my kids wanted to do gymnastics. Like I said, it's the one sport I can watch without being bored out of my mind. And pretty much the only sport I know anything about, although of course I could learn if my kid was really into another one.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:10:21 GMT -5
I said nothing about anorexia or undernourishment. Didn't indicate it or anything. Just asked if any of the olympians actually menstruate. Didn't even start to speculate on the reasons.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:10:44 GMT -5
'roids.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2012 16:12:48 GMT -5
A lot of very hardcore female athletes have late/infrequent/nonexistent menstrual cycles. There are only so many calories to go around, and you're using quite a few to recover from training and competition, so your body puts the kibosh on the procreation cycle.
Starvation can do the same thing, and for basically the same reason, but it doesn't mean that all female athletes who hit puberty late, or have infrequent cycles, are starving themselves.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:13:32 GMT -5
I said nothing about anorexia or undernourishment. Didn't indicate it or anything. Just asked if any of the olympians actually menstruate. Didn't even start to speculate on the reasons.
I know, but people tend to connect them, especially in gymnastics. The sport really gets a bad rap - people think it's bad for kids, will stunt their growth, will cheat them out of a childhood, is full of angry abusive coaches, etc.
I will forever hate Little Girls In Pretty Boxes for contributing to this rather bitter image.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:16:10 GMT -5
She's either a hockey player in her spare time and missing several adult teeth, or Chinese Olympic officials are lying their asses off about her age.
I do remember that aspect of Beijing. There's no way those girls were all 16.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:18:30 GMT -5
So far, I'm not overly impressed with the gymnastics culture, although youth sports as a whole is full of people with their own agenda. I don't see gymnastics (as a whole) any differently than how competition-level dance is portrayed on "Dance Moms." Our coach is nothing like that - he is very kind to the kids and very fun - but it is all about "him" and "his gym" and "his reputation." And he is always adding on additional costs - "We need to work out 4 days a week, maybe 5 days a week - for a fee"...etc.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2012 16:18:58 GMT -5
They had the same suspicions four years earlier. Korea had that one girl that won the individual gold, I think, that showed up for the Olympics missing both her front teeth. I think they finally stripped her medals and sanctioned the Korean national committee when they found documents proving they'd listed her as 15 for three straight years.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:24:01 GMT -5
And he is always adding on additional costs - "We need to work out 4 days a week, maybe 5 days a week - for a fee"...etc.
This kind of thing always makes me giggle. You *do* need to train 4-5 days a week (or more) to compete at elite levels and it *does* cost extra money. Mid's estimate of what her sister's extra training costs actually struck me as rather low. Even the youngest elite gymnasts are in the gym at least six hours a day doing intensive training with one or more coaches who know what they're doing and how to create champion-level routines.
That kind of expert service does not come cheap, and it's silly to suggest that it's not absolutely required to succeed at higher levels. Of course, it all depends on how far you want your kid to go. If you just want to keep things fun, that's fine. But money can and does absolutely stop a lot of young athletes from progressing.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:25:32 GMT -5
They had the same suspicions four years earlier. Korea had that one girl that won the individual gold, I think, that showed up for the Olympics missing both her front teeth. I think they finally stripped her medals and sanctioned the Korean national committee when they found documents proving they'd listed her as 15 for three straight years.
It's really troubling to hear stuff like this, because it means you don't have a fair fight on your hands. If we could have twelve year old gymnasts in the Games as well, it would be a much different competition. And the ones who end up suffering the most are the athletes - both the winners that had their medals stripped, and the older kids who lost to the younger kids and never had a realistic chance against them in the first place.
Like I said, it's never the hard work aspects of these sports that seem to tear chunks out of the kids - it's the fact that they are used as pawns and tools by adults with agendas that have nothing to do with them, and they get caught in the middle very frequently. Especially in countries where champion athletes are regarded as property and treated accordingly. That would mess up almost any kid. The sport itself isn't what damages them (usually, I should say).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:28:24 GMT -5
My daughter is no where near, nor will ever be at elite levels. But, in gymnastics there is no room to be recreational. That is what I hate about the culture. I'm sorry - the girl is 10 years old, and will never make a dime as a gymnist - she needs to do things like - oh, I don't know - HOMEWORK. Of course, if I can keep her in gymnastics until she is in high school, she will most likely go to college, even if she can't pass the 4th grade standardized tests.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 17, 2012 16:31:32 GMT -5
But, in gymnastics there is no room to be recreational. That is what I hate about the culture.
Okay, I see what you mean. I can understand how that would be frustrating. It is definitely not the most relaxing sport in the world or the most recreational. I wouldn't deny that.
Can she take tumbling instead? Those classes tend to be more relaxed and free-form.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 17, 2012 16:36:08 GMT -5
My estimate was partially pulled from my ass - I know what my sister's training cost, and about how many more hours the elite kids trained, but not the coach's billing rate or other factors. Plus these are 2006 dollars
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2012 16:36:38 GMT -5
We're starting to see more of that in softball. It's no longer an Olympic sport, and there's no professional league, but the parents are still putting crazy pressure on their kids to win. Even 8, 9, 10 year olds. It's freaking nuts.
We've had parents mad at us this season for allowing certain girls to play infield, pitch one inning, or whatever. They're all pissed off because we aren't winning all of our games. I'm like, "WTF people! It's summer rec for 8-12 year olds. Get the hell over it. If you want hyper competitive go join the travel team. That's why we have them."
Some of the travel parents are really and truly insane. The amount of drama that goes on in a season even on the 8 and under team is seriously unreal.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 17, 2012 16:43:06 GMT -5
But, in gymnastics there is no room to be recreational. That is what I hate about the culture.Okay, I see what you mean. I can understand how that would be frustrating. It is definitely not the most relaxing sport in the world or the most recreational. I wouldn't deny that. Can she take tumbling instead? Those classes tend to be more relaxed and free-form. If you find the right gym there is absolutely good ones out there. My parents didn't have money to let me join the team (they told me it was too much time commitment) and one gym didn't like that. So they wouldn't let me do advanced stuff, my mom switched me out to another gym that would let me do advanced stuff even though you were supposed to be at the team level to do that. The owner of the gym even made a point to stick me in a competition before I had to quit. I only medaled because there were only 3 girls in the division, but he didn't care that one of "his" girls wasn't blowing everyone out of the water.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:47:59 GMT -5
We would have to change gyms for her to do anything but full-team gymnastics. As nice as the coach is to the kids, it is pretty clear to me as a business person that he runs that business on thin margins. If you so much as suggest pulling out your money he gets vicious. Last year we took a month off - she paid for 10 extra workouts during the day, but skipped the evening workouts, and then we went on vacation for a couple of weeks. You would think that I cut off his leg. He was furious. Plus, I don't think they really have a tumbling class that advanced. The next closest gym is 35 minutes away - so I would pretty much have to quit my job to cart her around. I would more likely convince her to leave the sport of gymnastics all together.
Now our coach is insisting that workouts go from 9 hours per week to 12 hours per week, by adding an additional hour at the end of the current workouts, cost would change accordingly. Unfortunately, next year school starts an hour earlier than it does this year. He told me that she doesn't need that additional two hours of sleep. I refrained from telling him to go F himself. I just simply said that she would be available for the same 9 hour work out for the same price, and if that was not going to be up to the team standards, he could let me know. He started to tell me that all the other gyms were doing 12 hours of working out, but I told him that (a) I don't care and (b) that was an easy fact to check, so did he really mean "all" the other gyms. He backed off. I think he was fishing to see if he could get a critical mass of parents to commit. However, one Mom said that she told him she wouldn't pay for 12 hours and another Mom said she refused the time committment. Our "star" (who isn't that great either - nobody in this gym will be elite) already does extra hours - and that family will do anything the coach wants. But, I doubt he will change the team rules if 50% of the parents are resistant. It just sucks.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 16:53:03 GMT -5
At least you can say "It's rec - move up to travel if you want." That just isn't available in gymnastics. Yes, you don't have to be on the team - but then you don't compete at all. That would be like having batting practice 9 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, and never playing a game. My daughter still wants to go to the meets. We just want to limit her workouts to 9 hours per week. If she doesn't win any medals - that is fine.
Meanwhile, my son is on a club team and they practice 3 hours a week, and have a game every weekend - so a total of 4 hours per week. And that is "competition" level.
That is why I don't like gymnastics more than I don't like other youth sports.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 17, 2012 16:55:48 GMT -5
I have noted NOT to enroll my children in gymnastics!
Unless of course we had a truly relaxed gym.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 17, 2012 17:05:13 GMT -5
Swimming is the same way, but we still have the crazy competitive swim team and the laid back team. There's got to be a more laid back coach around someplace.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 17:38:14 GMT -5
There are gyms in any direction that are at least 30 minutes away. Maybe if we lived in the suburbs we would have more options. All of the gyms that I know of go to the same meets as we do, and they win medals - so, I'm not sure what we would get at those gyms. I've looked for other gyms, and can't find any that I haven't run into at competitions. Even if they did have the same practice schedule, I would substitute that extra hour of practice with an extra hour of driving. And as I said before, I would have to either hire a nanny or quit my job to get my kid to any of those gyms on time.
That's the other part of this sport - the equipment and space needed makes it more exclusive. Anyone can set up a soccer team - go to any park, or any school and get the grass space - about $300 of balls and goals, and bam - you've got a team. So, the number of places we could go to play those types of sports seems unlimited. Even swimming - there are 8 competition pools within 10 miles of our house. Finding another swim team would be like finding a stray cat - just open your eyes. But it seems to be rare that there are multiple gyms within a small radius.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 17, 2012 17:41:37 GMT -5
Oh - and our coach has a reputation of being laid back!!! The thing about our gym is that it is known for being "fun." So, yes, he wants to practice 12 hours a week, but he doesn't hammer the girls when they do practice. That is why we don't win a lot of medals. He blames it on not getting enough gym time, but we all have an educated guess that it is the quality and attention to detail of the coaching staff. Other parents/girls have gone out exploring and find that other gyms are much more precise with the requirements of the practice - they just work harder and smarter in the same number of hours.
That is why I think him wanting to practice more is more financially motivated than born out of a desire to win.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2012 17:41:55 GMT -5
Good luck with that. I let DD stay on swim team but because she had the mouth to tell the coach to F themselves if she had to. DS didn't have that moxie so I had to keep an eye on him. Even then the coaches were sneaky. They got away with a lot I didn't see. Wrestling is a damaging sport. As is gymnastics. DD wanted to do that and I nixed it right away. Got her turned onto horses. Spendy but better for her.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 18, 2012 9:12:26 GMT -5
That's the other part of this sport - the equipment and space needed makes it more exclusive. Anyone can set up a soccer team - go to any park, or any school and get the grass space - about $300 of balls and goals, and bam - you've got a team. So, the number of places we could go to play those types of sports seems unlimited. Even swimming - there are 8 competition pools within 10 miles of our house. Finding another swim team would be like finding a stray cat - just open your eyes. But it seems to be rare that there are multiple gyms within a small radius.
This is true. The equipment limitations of gymnastics are very real. Plus, I imagine the insurance coverage factor is much greater. You can only do so much damage playing soccer - skin a knee, break a leg. Falls and accidents when you're doing stunts are super dangerous - you can definitely cause permanent damage, and kids need to be properly supervised and spotted at all times.
It's definitely a bummer that you're at the "light" gym in your area, Thyme.
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