Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jan 27, 2011 16:51:15 GMT -5
When I was in, it seemed that certain medals got broken down by rank as opposed to any other real criteria. I also never really understood how certain people got a certain medal, while others who did the exact same thing (even at the same time and location) were completely looked over or got what is considered to be a lesser medal. The Bronze Star seems to be one of the worst of the bunch that this happens to, and I don't really understand why that is the case.
So back to the question, do you think that the military is too political in how it awards medals?
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 27, 2011 16:52:26 GMT -5
I don't know enough, but I would be surprised if politics didn't enter into it, at least in part.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jan 27, 2011 16:57:37 GMT -5
Is the military too political in giving out medals
There have been some instances where the military awarded medals for political reasons but they were in the main the exceptions. Military Award Review Boards are now very thorough and devoid of politics.
Lyndon Johnson was awarded a Silver Star in WW2 that many historians wrote it was politically motivated and not for bravery. Also Gray Davis was a awarded a Bronze Star in Vietnam for pushing papers but later claimed it was for bravery when he ran for Governor of California. But the Sacramento Bee investigated his claim for bravery, and having been awarded a Bronze Star which they used against Gray Davis to have him recalled by the voters in California. And of course the main reason he was recalled was for his ineptness during the electric blackouts.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 27, 2011 17:11:36 GMT -5
I was actually thinking more along the lines of how they get submitted for possible awarding, which i don't know how it is done, but assume somebody has to recommend someone, and in politics i was thinking more along the lines of 'office type politics' not our national political parties.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jan 27, 2011 17:20:54 GMT -5
I was actually thinking more along the lines of how they get submitted for possible awarding, which i don't know how it is done, but assume somebody has to recommend someone, and in politics i was thinking more along the lines of 'office type politics' not our national political parties. Usually as a Plt Leader or Plt Sgt you have to file an after action report and include any acts of bravery or exceptional performances by any individual or individuals. Then if you recommend a medal you need to have supporting signed statements by those who witnessed the action meriting this award. Then your paperwork goes up the chain of command. But in most cases you can recommend a Bronze Star but oftentimes that award may end up as only a Letter of Commendation or lesser award after it is reviewed by a panel of officers on the Medal Awards Board..it depends on the what the action was and if it merits the Bronze Star or not based on your testimony and others as well who witnessed the action for this award. This is just a summary of what often happens but would require a few more paragraphs to go into all the details involved in awarding medals
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2011 18:56:35 GMT -5
Not just "too political" but too politically correct also. They gave me a Humanitarian Service Ribbon for being stationed on a base that housed boat people from Vietnam in the mid-seventies but when we housed the group that was going back because they couldn't adjust to live in the States, they wouldn't issue me the Inhumane Service Ribbon I requested.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 27, 2011 23:10:36 GMT -5
Is the military too political in giving out medalsThere have been some instances where the military awarded medals for political reasons but they were in the main the exceptions. Military Award Review Boards are now very thorough and devoid of politics. Lyndon Johnson was awarded a Silver Star in WW2 that many historians wrote it was politically motivated and not for bravery. Also Gray Davis was a awarded a Bronze Star in Vietnam for pushing papers but later claimed it was for bravery when he ran for Governor of California. But the Sacramento Bee investigated his claim for bravery, and having been awarded a Bronze Star which they used against Gray Davis to have him recalled by the voters in California. And of course the main reason he was recalled was for his ineptness during the electric blackouts. You can google it..he got a Silver Star for flying as a observer {once}on a bomber in the Pacific...he was there, Pacific, on Roosevelts orders, wanted a non influenced observers view of the war..needed materials needed..any waste....turned out the plane never made it to the target..had to turn back, another plane on the same mission..was lost.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 27, 2011 23:23:57 GMT -5
When I was in, it seemed that certain medals got broken down by rank as opposed to any other real criteria. I also never really understood how certain people got a certain medal, while others who did the exact same thing (even at the same time and location) were completely looked over or got what is considered to be a lesser medal. The Bronze Star seems to be one of the worst of the bunch that this happens to, and I don't really understand why that is the case. So back to the question, do you think that the military is too political in how it awards medals? I do not think so..however if there is a action where there has been many decorations given..unless it's the medal..usually the officer in charge will usually be given the higher award in many cases..being in charge is the thinking I believe but when it comes down to it things like this hapen.. the battle la Dang, lst real large encounter between the Americans and the enemy, and the man in charge wrote this.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- LTG Moore writes:{ He was a Lt Col in command of the 1/7 } "We had problems on the awards... Too many men had died bravely and heroically, while the men who had witnessed their deeds had also been killed... Acts of valor that, on other fields, on other days, would have been rewarded with the Medal of Honor or Distinguished Service Cross or a Silver Star were recognized only with a telegram saying, 'The Secretary of the Army regrets...' The same was true of our sister battalion, the 2nd of the 7th."[14] The thing is only idiots look for decorations...what comes , comes..and the Bronze Star, especially with a V..that is a seriouse award...it means that soldier, marine , sailor, airman, did something over and above what is called for in his MOS..and did it gallently... ---------------------------------------------------- Due to the racial situation of our country and along with it the armed services , in WW2, many of those of color who should have been awarded decorations were not, whether from prejudices of those in charge of invstigating those recommendations or a unoffocial policy of the services. Many of those people have been honored since as their stories have come out, the records of the actions have been studied..so in some tinmes. I guess you might say it was a political thing though I think it was just the prejudice of the times. The 442 regimental combat brigade , Japanese /Americans 100 % except for the officers..was the most decorated unit of that size in WW2..a movie, "Go for Broke "..Van Johnson was the lead.. it is a fair depiction of the unit and it's actions in Italy.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 29, 2011 14:02:42 GMT -5
The most recent data I have for deployment medals is that 20% of the troops will get one. This is where you get into politics much more than a PCS medal (one you get for serving three years at Tinker, Oklahoma or Dover Delaware). The officers and SNCO's have to get a medal or else they won't be considered for promotion, thats just the facts of life. If you have one Captian who deployed and didn't get and one who deployed and did, it makes the board wonder why the guy didn't get one. So naturally they are the ones approving the medals, if you have a squadron of 120 people that makes roughly 6 officers and 6 SNCO's...add 6 plus 6 equals 12, or 10%. That doesn't leave a whole lot of medals for the other 108 junior enlisted...but then again the other 108 don't need one to get promoted either. Obviously politics come into play with this sort of situation. I'll be honest with you, I've written dec's (decorations) for people that in hindsight didn't deserve it. I've also seen people get passed over when I felt they did deserve one. I've been in that situation myself, two achievement medals I got for not really much at all - basically being involved in a project that was way over my head at the time but everybody involved got a medal because it was an important project. So it isn't a perfect system and there is a lot of "subjectiveness" in it, but it's the system that we work under so hopefully the right folks get more medals in the long run. I guess for the professionals , career people these awards are important...there are the " I was there " decorations, but the ones that say how I performed while I was there do represent how good a job you did when you were there. The decoration I am most proud of was the CIB, in fact use to just wear that one with qualifying badges till got chewed out by the old man for not wearing the whole she bang,,he got chewed out so as you know S travels down hill..{I was copying him by the way, great old man..not that many occasions to wear class A's but at times}
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 5, 2011 20:08:51 GMT -5
First I think there are to many medals awarded. The medal for valor under extreme conditions, the purple heart and the medal of honor are the ones that carry the weight. The others they could . I remember trhe sharp shooters medal and the attitude among the group was big deal just something to hang on your tunic.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 6, 2011 14:27:45 GMT -5
There are qualification awards to be worn..you have seen them, received them , sharpshooter, marksman, with the weapons qualified hangong from them, then there are the "You were there " decorations, the places you were stationed at..the theateres you were in...Korea, Nam..today iraq, Afganistan. Then there are the awards for actions..valor, that the Col mentions,
Then LTG Moore writes:{ He was a Lt Col in command of the 1/7 }
"We had problems on the awards... Too many men had died bravely and heroically, while the men who had witnessed their deeds had also been killed... Acts of valor that, on other fields, on other days, would have been rewarded with the Medal of Honor or Distinguished Service Cross or a Silver Star were recognized only with a telegram saying, 'The Secretary of the Army regrets...' The same was true of our sister battalion, the 2nd of the 7th."[14
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 6, 2011 19:22:15 GMT -5
General Moore had it about right. People do what they can to give recognition to others for whatever efforts were made. It is not an exact science. It is not even an art. It is, however, one of the most important components of unit cohesion.
But suppose the ones who observe the "award worthy" efforts are no longer in a position to report what someone did that was "above the line" and should be recognized with an award commensurate to the act/s performed. They get lost to unreported history, that's what.
You do you time, you do your best for the mission and your buddies, and you go on with life, , and you hold your head up when you look your children and mother in the eye.
Then there are the likes of presidential candidate John Kerry. People who are better than anyone else, , , in their own minds , , the people who do their own write-ups. People who think making muster on time is an award winner.
Most people know who they are right away. It's like on these boards. Who gets the kudos for straight talk, and who gets cut off at the knees for that same straight talk?
And who gives the kudos and who does the cutting? Life is not always a win win game.
For a comparison ask any liberal who voted for Obama and you'll find his failures are not his at all, but can be laid at the feet of everybody else.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 6, 2011 20:21:49 GMT -5
General Moore had it about right. People do what they can to give recognition to others for whatever efforts were made. It is not an exact science. It is not even an art. It is, however, one of the most important components of unit cohesion. But suppose the ones who observe the "award worthy" efforts are no longer in a position to report what someone did that was "above the line" and should be recognized with an award commensurate to the act/s performed. They get lost to unreported history, that's what. You do you time, you do your best for the mission and your buddies, and you go on with life, , and you hold your head up when you look your children and mother in the eye. Then there are the likes of presidential candidate John Kerry. People who are better than anyone else, , , in their own minds , , the people who do their own write-ups. People who think making muster on time is an award winner. Most people know who they are right away. It's like on these boards. Who gets the kudos for straight talk, and who gets cut off at the knees for that same straight talk? And who gives the kudos and who does the cutting? Life is not always a win win game. For a comparison ask any liberal who voted for Obama and you'll find his failures are not his at all, but can be laid at the feet of everybody else. I was going to give a thumbs up and a great post and will on one part, to bad you demeaned it by BS..I believe I have read a report from Kerry's commanding officer saying he was thinking of also court martialing him when he grounded his boat and went after the combatant , that was a tongue in cheek comment by his CO by the way don't take it to the bank as a criticism. Not happy with his comments to Congress after he came back?..ok. Yep I'm a middle to a left , a liberal you might feel, to me , a middle to the left. one that paid his dues and then some..admit some real AH who are ultra lefts..same as your side , so many AH... why you had to bring that crap to this part of the zone I haven't a clue..same BS all the time..give it a rest and you dishonor those who we mention here. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "General Moore had it about right. People do what they can to give recognition to others for whatever efforts were made. It is not an exact science. It is not even an art. It is, however, one of the most important components of unit cohesion. But suppose the ones who observe the "award worthy" efforts are no longer in a position to report what someone did that was "above the line" and should be recognized with an award commensurate to the act/s performed. They get lost to unreported history, that's what" Here I give you kudos and a , well spoken and right on..says it all..the rest of the post......
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 6, 2011 21:46:09 GMT -5
Hello desi,
Still a "wanna-be in charge" I see.
Still making it your personal duty to snap at anyone who's views don't match you own, I see.
That's too bad. But maybe it's got to do with your own perception of reality. Maybe if you'd move closer to the game you'd understand the action better. Seems to me you're so far out in left field that you're expecting the fence to be moved just so you can still claim to be in the ball park.
Fire away, desi. But understand this: My views of history are as real to me as yours are to you, and I personally recall things about people like Kerry that you have only read about, written by other left leaning people who also only read about it.
Did you ever read the whole story? The WHOLE story? It does not read like what this Marine Corporal did. I understand this Marine went West last fall. He'll be standing guard at the Pearly Gates, as is his due. He has earned the assignment.
Quoting from the narrative that was used to support a Navy Cross Citation:. . . . "On January the twenty-fifth , 1968 . . . . . . crew chief Cpl. Ernesto Gomez, and his gunner were assigned a medical evacuation mission at Hill 881S. The casualty had a serious head wound. As the aircraft landed, the zone came under heavy mortar fire. Fifty caliber fire began to rake the zone in the vicinity of the casualty and also striking the aircraft. . . . . Unable to see, confused and disoriented, the casualty remained erect and stumbled about the zone. Seeing this, the crew chief, Cpl Ernesto "Gooey" Gomez, departed the aircraft, ran and picked up the wounded Marine and started to return to the chopper. After some yards, Gomez tripped in a small crater and fell. As mortar rounds and machine gun fire continued to rain down, Ernesto used his own body to shield the wounded man from further injury. The gunner of the aircraft, seeing the plight of his crew chief, exited the aircraft, scooped up the casualty and assisted the crew chief in carrying him to the aircraft. All the while, the helicopter remained in the zone as the aircraft continued to absorb damage. On the crew's return to the aircraft, the helicopter immediately departed the fire-swept zone for Khe Sanh. On arrival there, the pilot determined that the aircraft was unflyable and abandoned the aircraft . . . . ."
And Corporal Gomez didn't have to write up his own recommendation, and after his third Purple Heart he didn't request a return to the states either.
Kerry did both, and managed an RTCONUS in the process, but he never shed a single drop of blood. There were some who said it was better for the Swift Boats that he was gone. He was a show-off and pompous fool. The word at the time was that they short toured him at 4 months just to get rid of him. If it means anything to you, you'll understand, because the pomposity included listing on his bogus DD214 that he was awarded a Silver Star, , , WITH A COMBAT V FOR VALOR. . . device attachment. Now THAT is pomposity personified.
All he ever did in country was sweat dog droppings until he got short toured and began his campaign of lies with Hanoi Jane Fonda.
BTW, Did you notice the mayor of Columbia SC intended to include some John Kerry and Hanoi Jane references to the program to celebrate the veterans of the Viet Nam war , , , until he was told no veterans would show up if he did?
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Feb 6, 2011 22:16:10 GMT -5
We talk about charging this person or that person with treason, but I honestly believe that Jane Fonda should have been tried and shot for treason.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 6, 2011 23:35:46 GMT -5
important opportunity to be part of giving out awards. There's Marine in Bethesda that is out of reach financially for his family to travel to visit. This was in my in box today. Maybe some of the readers can help brighten a young warrior's day.
".........I just returned home from a visit I had made to see some of my fellow Marines in the hospital in Bethesda MD. One of my very good friends has recently returned home from Afghanistan early due to an injury he sustained while in combat. Despite losing his right leg and fracturing his left leg and injuring his right arm, he is in great spirits. The reason I am sending this email is that he could use our support. Support is one of the most important elements of the healing process. I ask you if you could please send your support to him as he continues to fight this battle, so he can continue to serve our country and beloved Corps as he so much wants to. Any support you can give to him would mean the world to him. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Semper Fidelis......."
Send any support to: CPL Rodriguez Building 10 Ward 5E 8801 Wisconsin Ave. Bethesda, MD 20889
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 6, 2011 23:58:49 GMT -5
I am not into the "Swift Boat" narrative, especially since the texas Gentleman gave them $ 3 million toward the story, and not till 2004, guess , what election time I like this report..brings up the controversy as well as the answers , the official ones. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "In September 2004, Vice Admiral Ronald A. Route, the Navy Inspector General, completed a review of Kerry's combat medals, initiated at the request of Judicial Watch. In a memo to the Secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, Route stated:[79] “ Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive. The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place. Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Navy officials say that there is no evidence that Mr. Kerry's Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts were ever rescinded and that there is no evidence of misconduct in his records. He did receive new medal citations in the mid-1980s. Officials say the Navy receives scores, and perhaps hundreds, of such requests each year from veterans who want a second copy or have lost the originals. The citations are simply put through a machine that implants the signature of the current Navy secretary. John Lehman's signature, via a machine, appears on Mr. Kerry's new citation for his Silver Star.[59] ” Commenting on the Silver Star issue, Republican Sen. John Warner, who was Under Secretary of the Navy at the time, stated "We did extraordinary, careful checking on that type of medal, a very high one, when it goes through the secretary...I'd stand by the process that awarded that medal, and I think we best acknowledge that his heroism did gain that recognition."[60] Elmo Zumwalt, Commander of the United States Naval Forces in Vietnam at that time, signed Kerry's original Silver Star citation and defended the award in 1996, saying "It is a disgrace to the United States Navy that there's any inference that the [medal] process was anything other than totally honest." Boston Herald, October 28, 1996" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess we could go over every line there and despute what happened over thirty years ago..but for what purpose. Henrey your so caught up in the politics and the anti Obama , liberwl, democrat crap your mind is clouded , it's your whole exhistence and to jump on the "Swift boat" story fits right in with your thinking. That his arm wasn't hanging off when he got his purple hearts and his butt wasn't split up all the way doesn't take away from the award..even if he fired a grenade or one of his troops did and there was shrapnel back to him, common incident..It's perf correct to gain the award and the severety of a wound has no bearing, a 1/4 inch to the left or tight , it is very seriouse. e That he used the three awards you can go home out? Why not, I would have, and the one you use as a example didn't, possible he didn't know , wasn't offered or was just nuts. we had those too you know. He wasn't going to do this as a career, he served, he saw what it was about, how dangerouse it was, he was very young, George Patton he was not ..you calling him a coward? You were there? You saw action, on the line. His testimony in front of Congress..you have a question on that, your right to have them but your attacks on his service...swift boat people, $3 million paid them..read my link, it has the accusations, the responses..i'll go with the responses... -------------------------------------------------------------- He said you said all around the town.. "There were some who said it was better for the Swift Boats that he was gone. He was a show-off and pompous fool. The word at the time was that they short toured him at 4 months just to get rid of him. " --------------------------------------------- Who said better off...who said show off, pompouse fool ? what word..? But that's your argument ? He said, she said all around the town....
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 0:30:24 GMT -5
If the address of Cpl Rodriguez is bonified please say so, will be glad to send a letter and contribution toward his family visiting, I have been volunteering at the local Va hospital in Ft Laudedale area, as many of my friends at the VFW do, will bring his name to them this week. We have a fund there just for cases like this and a few who have large homes near the hospital offers rooms to the familys to stay while visiting. Most of our wounded are from Florida, some from Georgia but Florida is a big State so over nights are still necessay.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 7, 2011 0:39:28 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase here. This is about John Kerry's DD214, and sites that discuss it, from his website when he was running for president. rofasix.blogspot.com/2006/09/john-kerrys-dd-214.htmland here: wizbangblog.com/content/2004/08/27/defending-john-1.phpand here: archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=11716and here: www.papillonsartpalace.com/jodhn.htmAnd of course here, in the preface to the Kerry Expose' "Unfit for Command": ", , , , , How John Kerry’s reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go—becoming the only swift boat veteran to serve only four-months in Vietnam. www.regnery.com/regnery/040809_unfit.htmlHave fun wih your fantasy world, desi. I'm sure all the Americans that were left behind in VietNam are still resting as easy as you. You do know who I am talking about, don't you? The ones John Kerry went over there to get, only to come back and tell their families they didn't exist, and never had existed. But he did bring back a picture of himself and some of the NVA leadeship admiring his picture on the wall of the People's Liberation Party Museum" in Hanoi.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 4:05:56 GMT -5
I'll cut to the chase with you..I left that war and a part of me over 40 years ago , your still involved in it and the happenings ..
I have read most of those links , definitely "unfit for command " a slick piece of writing..I'll stay with the official line, part of my problem, till proven differently , I like the government version and on this one , no reason to believe different, no reason to be false.
According to your reports all of his decorations, every one , the three Purple Hearts, the Bronze Star with V and the Silver Star, all were awarded to him but he didn't earn a one..LOL, get real already. You personally didn't like that the wounds were not severe, to me all wounds are wounds and serious or not they all earn the Purple heart, thats official by the way, not my feelings, definitely not a Henry's feelings, the military feelings and rules of. Your saying ALL decorations, all five not earned, all falsely awarded., The clout this very Jr officer had. Five decorations, all falsely given. How preposterous your reasoning is as was the swift Boat people, anything for a buck, testimony, especially since they didn't like his testimony before Congress , then running for President,then to be paid on top of that for their comments, not all made up or wrong by the way. We sure did a job over there, or are you going to argue that point too, how benevolent we were in that conflict. Free fire zones, if it breathed it was to be killed, enemy troops , maybe enemy troops, Mama San, Papa San, Mothers, Sisters, Brothers, Children, Water Buffalos..then there was the Agent Orange, besides doing a job on our own people, it's still over there lying on the ground, still doing it's work.
$3 million political blurb by a political foe of him and BS from ones like you who will say anything about anyone because of your twisted political feelings, this paranoia you have about any one who is from the other side in politics .
You were not there in his units, you were not on those river patrols, you know no one who was. Have no idea if you served , were you served or care to know, means nothing to me, but that you pick up on these reports about him rather then the official reports, why?
You have political problems. I know because i have seen your posts the anti left, anti Obama , the "Obama sucks because I said so " type posts on the other zone for ever, one track mind, nothing else of interest to you.
You read the BS that was paid for to discredit a Presidential candidate from the other party, that meets with your approval, whether true or not , because it meets with your political feelings. That campaign is long over yet you continue to push the lies and misinformation that counter official action reports of the US military. Some might suggest you have some problems , not me of course, never, but some might suggest it.
What was it you said, "lets cut to the chase" , hope my reply was a deep enough cut to for you. Love to give people what they ask for.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 7, 2011 6:55:15 GMT -5
ballot box The Worst of John Kerry A troubling tale from his past. Is it true? By William Saletan and Ben Jacobs Posted Wednesday, Sept. 3, 2003, at 11:27 AM ET -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slate continues its short features on the 2004 presidential candidates. Previous series covered the candidates' biographies, buzzwords, agendas, worldviews, and claims to fame. This series assesses the story that supposedly shows each candidate at his worst. Here's the one told by critics of John Kerry—and what they leave out. Charge: "Kerry, who understood well the importance that the media placed on imagery, put an exclamation mark on by lining up with veterans to return their medals to the military on April 23. Kerry said he suggested that veterans place their medals and ribbons on a table and return them. But he said other members of the antiwar veterans group wanted to throw the medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol, and Kerry went along with the idea. … Some press reports say that Kerry 'threw his medals.' But Kerry has long maintained he threw his own ribbons but someone else's medals. In an interview, he said that he had previously met two veterans … who had asked Kerry to return their medals to the military. Kerry said he stuffed them into his jacket. He said that when he prepared to throw his ribbons over the fence, he reached into his jacket and pulled out the medals from those two veterans. He said his own medals remained in safekeeping" (Boston Globe, June 17, 2003).
"[Massachusetts] Republican State Committee Chairman Andres S. Natsios … accused Kerry of 'duplicity' in tossing away another veteran's medals, rather than his own" (Washington Post, Oct. 24, 1984).
Defense: In December 2002, The New Yorker reported that "Kerry had never implied" the medals he threw were his. "Indeed, the protesters that day had tossed all sorts of things—dog tags, photographs, discharge papers, insignia." Kerry's only mistake was that "he had complicated the story with an excess of honesty, recalling that he'd also tossed several medals that had been given him by veterans who were unable to make the trip."
In 1984, the Post reported that Kerry said "he had disagreed with the decision to throw away medals but agreed to toss those of another veteran at the man's request." In 1985, Kerry told the Post, "It's such a personal thing. They're my medals. I'll do what I want with them. … People say, 'You didn't throw your medals away.' Who said I had to? And why should I? It's my business. I did not want to throw my medals away."
In sum, Kerry seems innocent of duplicity but guilty of an extremely nuanced moral code, according to which it's OK to throw away your ribbons and somebody else's medals, but not your medals. As to the broader question of Vietnam, there's no dispute that Kerry fought honorably in the war and spoke out clearly against it upon his return.
William Saletan is Slate's national correspondent and author of Bearing Right: How Conservatives Won the Abortion War. Follow him on Twitter here. Ben Jacobs is a Slate intern.
Article URL: www.slate.com/id/2087554/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 7, 2011 10:45:27 GMT -5
It's no surprise that some people would rather cut off their learning process on the likes of John Kerry and the events of 40 odd years ago. To continues to learn doesn't serve their purpose.
To align anyone's self with John Kerry is to align themselves with his picture on the wall of the Museum in Hanoi where he is lauded as a hero for helping the NVA win the war. That part of history is not palatable, even to the far left.
But there are others who are interested in the real history of some of the events. Here is one opportunity to learn more. It's about 3 minutes of John Kerry's recent stonewalling on his part of losing the war.
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Post by privateinvestor on Feb 7, 2011 12:43:54 GMT -5
John Kerry sold out his Navy brothers when he testified about atrocities in Vietnam which later were all discredited by his superiors and were his delusional recalls or just for political reasons. Members of the Navy hold Kerry in the same category as Jane Fonda.....
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 13:28:53 GMT -5
John Kerry sold out his Navy brothers when he testified about atrocities in Vietnam which later were all discredited by his superiors and were his delusional recalls or just for political reasons. Members of the Navy hold Kerry in the same category as Jane Fonda..... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' If you noticed , and enough time has been spent on this part of the war by me, I never said anything about those who have a axe to grind about his testimony before congress..you have a problem about that, so be it...there could be reasons for , maybe not , it's the "Swift Boat " stories I have a problem with..unless one has been there..I believe you were as I...you know what it is like...to weigh the damage done in receiving a purple heart, the awarding of a medal for valor, ...that seemed to be done in a correct way for most of them...mine i know...but for every one hiven there were 100's if not more that should have been..I have no stomach for them..the argument from over 40 years ago...have to leave that time or it will consume you...atrocitys, possible not at the time , but in the after wards..and yes I saw and once stopped something...they did happen.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 7, 2011 13:50:25 GMT -5
We are all heros, , , , in our own minds.
John Kerry was quick and loud enough in his condemnation of others. What did he have tio say about his own people? One of the most prominent marks of a leader is whether and how often the men he is responsible for ever get recognized for their contributions.
In the case of John Kerry I'll ask his defenders to show where a single man under John Kerry was ever awarded anything for any action, based on the recommendations of John Kerry.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 14:11:29 GMT -5
We are all heros, , , , in our own minds. John Kerry was quick and loud enough in his condemnation of others. What did he have tio say about his own people? One of the most prominent marks of a leader is whether and how often the men he is responsible for ever get recognized for their contributions. In the case of John Kerry I'll ask his defenders to show where a single man under John Kerry was ever awarded anything for any action, based on the recommendations of John Kerry. --------------------------------------------- Heroes?? Possible you, to me , I think survivor.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 7, 2011 15:07:58 GMT -5
".......I think survivor. ........."
Then you're not interested in whether Kerry ever made a recommendatin for an award for any of his men.
He was sure keen on getting his own, though, wasn't he? Why not for his men, they were there with him, weren't they?
But of course, he was the only one in the crew that ever did anything worthy of recognition, Right?
Right, , , , in his own mind, that is.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 16:03:35 GMT -5
".......I think survivor. ........." Then you're not interested in whether Kerry ever made a recommendatin for an award for any of his men. He was sure keen on getting his own, though, wasn't he? Why not for his men, they were there with him, weren't they? But of course, he was the only one in the crew that ever did anything worthy of recognition, Right? Right, , , , in his own mind, that is. Don't know why I am continuing this with you Henry but NO..I don't or care..I never said he was a great..good..fair commander. It seems that his people, those on his boat, the ones he commanded were happy with him but to go back 40 years..a new very young officer..the ones I had tlll they got their silver bar..most could get you killed but one I had was smart enough to command but listen till he got a idea what was up...turned out very good till he caught it..bad wound but survived.. I never said he was another Halsey..don't know if he ever recommended any one for decoration...I would say let it lie, it's a long time ago, , doubt you will, he was awarded certain decorations that the Navy say were in line...I go with that...
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Feb 7, 2011 19:09:38 GMT -5
It's STILL not surprising that people want to forget Kerry's part in the VietNam war. The minority few who are STILL in denial that their former poster boy could be such a shameful example of our Naval Service. But Kerry is just too much of that history to be forgotten by the majority , , , and the historians. (You DO want our history to be accurate, don't you?) Here's some more. It has to do with Christmas, 1968. "........Was John Kerry in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968? One of the things John Kerry has talked and written about for a long time was what he described as his "illegally" being ordered to enter Cambodia. In a letter to the editor of the Boston Herald in October, 1979, Kerry wrote, "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real." He also made reference to the Cambodia-Christmas story during remarks on the floor of the Senate in 1986. He said the memory was "seared" in him. Kerry said his "deep mistrust" of U.S. government statements began when he was in Cambodia at Christmas listened to President Richard Nixon claim that no American troops were there. The Swifties begin by saying that Richard Nixon was not president during Christmas of 1968 so there could not have been the broadcast that Kerry says he heard..." And it gets REAL interesting after that. Want to see some more? I think this thread, having been devoted to John Kerry as it has, is possibly some of what PI had in mind when he started the thread. For anyone interested, see more at: www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry-swiftboats.htm although SOME people don't want to know about the things they may encounter, so they just skip the reading material and go with their pre-conceived prejudices. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when those same people try to rewrite the history and make it into pablum, while impugning anyone who has a different view..
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 7, 2011 19:20:25 GMT -5
I guess you don't want to let go and you have your "Swift Boat " Links , well I got mine..lets see how they match out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mediamatters.org/columns/200707240001--------------------------------------------------------------------- "The problem with that analogy is that it completely ignores what set the Swift Boat Vets apart: They manufactured nearly every claim they made about Kerry. They lied about documents; they lied about eyewitnesses. And they lied about their partisan leanings and connections. And they also played the press for fools. At every turn in 2004, military records proved the Swift Boat veterans to be fakes. At every turn, each new inconsistency proved the Swift Boat veterans to be charlatans" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Let's recap the Swift Boat episode by examining the key facts and the flip-flopping players involved, as well as their credibility. Since the Swift Boat vets had no official documentation to support their claims about Kerry's misconduct, which they hatched 35 years after the fact, all they had was their word and their reputation. Let's see if any of their claims were "disputed" or if they were "discredited." •Alfred French The first person seen in the first Swift Boat ad broadcast on cable television, French made the initial televised allegation against Kerry: "I served with John Kerry. He's lying about his record." In preparation for the ad, French, a senior deputy district attorney in Oregon and registered Republican, signed a sworn affidavit for the Swift Boat Vets asserting that Kerry received his Purple Heart "from negligently self-inflicted wounds in the absence of hostile fire." A fundamental requirement of any affidavit is that the person signing it must have personal knowledge of the matters involved. In fact, the affidavit French signed declared, "I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and within my personal knowledge and belief." (Emphasis added) But in an interview with The Oregonian newspaper of Portland, French freely admitted he had no firsthand knowledge of the events surrounding Kerry's medals and that his information came from secondhand accounts from "friends" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "•George Elliott Kerry's former commanding officer, Elliott was the third person seen in the first Swift Boat ad. Elliott looked into the camera and said, "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam." The problem was Elliott simply could not make up his mind about what actually "happened in Vietnam." Back in a December 1969 fitness report on Kerry, Elliott wrote, "In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed," noting Kerry was an "acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach." Years later when he campaigned for Kerry during the senator's re-election bid, Elliott told Massachusetts voters that Kerry's Silver Star was awarded for "an act of courage." In an April 13, 2004, article, Elliott told USA Today that he had no qualms about Kerry's actions that earned him the Silver Star. "This was an exemplary action," he said. "There's no question about." For 35 years, Elliott testified to the senator's bravery -- and then, in an instant, changed his story when he signed off on the Swift Boat Veterans' May 4, 2004, letter delivered to the Kerry campaign documenting their allegations. In August 2004, just as the first Swift Boat ad was being aired, Elliott experienced another change of heart, confessing to The Boston Globe, "It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. ... I knew it was wrong. ... In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake." And then, amazingly, Elliott flip-flopped again. After conferring with the Swift Boat leaders, Elliott quickly signed a new affidavit that stood by the first account. Much to the Swift Boat Vets' relief, Elliott then promptly cut off all press interviews. Elliott's claim disputed? Yes" ------------------------------------------------------------------ "•Dr. Louis Letson The fourth person to appear in the first Swift Boat ad, Letson announced, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart, because I treated him for that injury." In another affidavit, Letson claimed Kerry's wound was too small to justify a medal. First, Navy guidelines during the Vietnam War for Purple Hearts did not take into account the size of the wound when awarding the honor, which meant Letson's claim was irrelevant. Second, Kerry's medical records indicate Letson did not sign off as the "person administering treatment" on December 3, 1968, which raised doubts about whether Letson ever even treated Kerry. (Why, if Kerry's wounds were so minor, was Letson able to recall the incident so vividly 35 years later?) Additionally, Letson claimed the reason he knew Kerry was lying about his wound was because that's what Letson overheard, secondhand, from Kerry's crewmembers: that there was no enemy fire during their mission when Kerry was injured. But Letson could not name the person who allegedly told him that tale, which was bizarre since, on the night in question, Kerry was in the company of just two other crewmembers. Letson's claim disputed? Yes. Letson discredited? Yes." --------------------------------------------------------------------- "•William Schachte Schachte claims he was one of those two men with Kerry that night; specifically, that he was the commander of the December 2, 1968, mission for which Kerry won his first Purple Heart. According to Schachte, the boat they were on did not receive enemy fire, and Kerry's wound, which Letson allegedly treated, was the result of Kerry's improper use of a grenade launcher. But the servicemen who were on the boat that night don't remember seeing Schachte. Since the boat was a small skimmer, it would have been hard for him to escape notice. Besides Kerry, the other crewmembers that night were Bill Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon. They had told the same story for years, and they both insisted neither Schachte nor anyone else was with the three of them that night. (''Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three,'' Runyon told The New York Times.) An attorney by training, Schachte never signed an affidavit detailing his dubious accusations against Kerry. Schachte's claimed disputed? Yes. Schachte discredited? Yes" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "•Adrian Lonsdale During the 2004 campaign, Lonsdale claimed that Kerry "lacks the capacity to lead." That was odd, because during Kerry's 1996 Senate race, Lonsdale explained the success of river operations during the Vietnam War by telling Massachusetts reporters, "It was because of the bravery and the courage of the young officers that ran boats ... the swift boats and the Coast Guard cutters, and Senator Kerry was no exception." Also in 1996, Lonsdale walked reporters through the citation process for medals. Lonsdale, along with Elliott, handled the reports, he said. Lonsdale noted that awards were approved only if there was corroboration from others. His explanation completely contradicted later Swift Boat Vet claims that Kerry won his bogus awards only because he was able to write up false reports and fool his commanders. Lonsdale's claim disputed? Yes. Lonsdale discredited? Yes" --------------------------------------------------------------------- "•Larry Thurlow Another registered Republican, Thurlow commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry's in Vietnam. And up until the election season of 2004, he had nothing bad to say about Kerry's service. Even as late as April 2004, Thurlow told USA Today that Kerry "was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point." During the summer of 2004, everything changed as Thurlow's key role was to serve as Swift Boat Vets' point person on what they claimed was Kerry's disputed Bronze Star and third Purple Heart, won during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Thurlow claimed Kerry's award was a fraud. Thurlow signed a sworn affidavit for the Swift Boat Vets that stated Kerry was "not under fire" when he pulled Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which stated that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated." The Swift Boat Vets also accused Kerry of "fleeing the scene." But then The Washington Post got ahold of the citation for a Bronze Star that Thurlow won that very same day for actions on a boat that was right alongside Kerry's. The citation detailed how both his boat and Kerry's boat faced "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire." Asked for a response, Thurlow still insisted there had been no enemy fire that day. But how could Thurlow have been foolish enough to sign a Swift Boat Vet affidavit about there being no enemy fire that day when his own citation made reference to there being enemy fire? Thurlow had a good explanation. In fact, he had at least three of them: He alternately told patient reporters he paid little or no attention to the citation when he won the Bronze Star ("Well, I just took it home, put it away, and kind of ignored the whole thing"); that he lost the citation 20 years ago; or that the citation was with his ex-wife, take your pick. And no, Thurlow told reporters, he would not authorize the release of a copy. (The Post obtained its copy through a Freedom of Information request.) Nonetheless, Thurlow, who accepted a Bronze Star for bravery under fire even though he insisted there was none that day, spent the summer of 2004 accusing a man who everyone else said had displayed bravery under fire of lying. Thurlow's claim disputed? Yes. Thurlow discredited? Yes." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- " •Roy Hoffmann According to Swift Boat legend, it was Hoffmann, the crusty retired Navy officer and Kerry's former commander, who formed the genesis of the attack campaign. Upset after reading Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty, the Kerry-friendly telling of the senator's Vietnam experience in which veterans portrayed the commander as " 'hotheaded,' 'blood-thirsty,' and 'egomaniacal,' " Hoffman took aim at Kerry. (Kerry himself had little negative to say about Hoffman in the book.) "I couldn't bear that someone was betraying us and being a dastardly liar," Hoffman told The Washington Post. The fact that Hoffmann "couldn't bear" to remain silent about Kerry was odd because in 1969, Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann congratulated Kerry on the daring Swift boat attack he led, calling it a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy." More recently, in 1995, Hoffmann attended a wedding party for Kerry and Teresa Heinz. In a June 2003 Boston Globe profile of Kerry, Hoffman was still praising the senator as he recalled the events surrounding Kerry's Silver Star: ''It took guts, and I admire that.'' In an interview with Brinkley in March 2003, when asked about Kerry, Hoffmann said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him. He's a good man." But after seeing his name trashed in Tour of Duty by his own men, Hoffman changed his mind, and then had trouble keeping his stories straight. According to a May 6, 2004, article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the former commander "acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." The next month, Hoffmann reiterated, "I did not know Kerry personally. I didn't ride the boat with him." Fast-forward to August 2004, when the first Swift Boat ads hit the airwaves, and Hoffmann suddenly updated his Vietnam memories, telling Fox News, "I knew [Kerry] well, because I operated very closely with him." Hoffmann's claim disputed? Yes. Hoffman discredited? Yes" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't skip reading material..I read a lot, google a lot and try to get the facts not clouded by what ever political feeling s I have. The time and period are very alive for me, to alive at times. From your posts for the past few years there is no question you have a agenda and it isn't the trruth..it's your agenda, the truth as seen by "Henry". Why was $3 milliom Texan dollers paid for testimony, "swift Boat"?..because there was a election , a important one that was very narrowly won. Was the allegations of the "swift Boat " veterans effective, in hurting the Senators chances in the election.? From Fox here is their feelings: ------------------------------------------------------------ "Appearing on Fox News on August 23, 2004, Kessler reported that 42 percent of viewers were leaning toward voting for Kerry before seeing the first ad, but just 29 percent were leaning toward Kerry immediately after seeing it. As for the second ad, Kessler said viewers had little or no reaction, and that his firm even detected a backlash against Bush among some independent viewers. Again, the entire Swift Boat firestorm was ignited by the first ad, which was laced with disputed allegations and discredited accusers. Yet Hinderaker makes sweeping statements about how most of the Swift Boat allegations were never disputed except, for y'know, maybe in the first ad. Right, and other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? ------------------------------------------------------------ You tell me..theres lots more .,.so much more, why go on... By the way , who and why did some one finance this report ---------------------------------------------------------------- anhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5844156/ns/politics/d the ad.
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