Your kids stability....

[Deleted]

how much is it worth to you?

Backstory :

My ex-cousin (I say ex since she is the niece of my dad ex-wife) husband got laid off a few months back. They are far from broke or poor, at least I believe. He is an attorney in NYC and they own a browstone which per zillow is worth ~6Million. And before we start jumping on the price of the house, he purchased it in the early 80's when he just started practicing law for a couple hundred grand (it was a forclosure that needed a lot of work, and still need some more)... so no he did not spend that much on it.

Anyway, back to the story... he is in his mid/late 50's, with a stay at home wife (she is in her 30's) and 4 kids. The twins are in pre-k but two of his daughters are in a prestigious private school and he is paying 35k/year (20k for one and 15k for the other - he got a 5k discount since he already had a daughter at the school).

One of his law school buddies hired him on part time to help out, so he has some money coming in until he finds a permanent/full time job. So as we were talking yesterday, my dad ex-wife mentionned would they take the kids out of school this coming year and the wife was shocked and said: Why would we do that? They need stability above all right now!

Now again mind you, I don't have inside information to their finances but I would assume that having practiced law for longer than I have been alive, paying 35K/year in tuition, a stay at home wife that never worked since she said "I Do" they have serious $$$$$ in the bank and they can survive just fine while he is unemployed.

They are not flashy rich, but the type of rich that only people like my wife that are into fashion can notice: the watch that look kinda bland/boring but my wife said goes for 20K minimum, wife clothes nice/elegant but not out there but again my wife says can cost 2k or more. So folks that if I meet outside at a party I would think are simple/ordinary middle class until my wife start pointing out what they are wearing or you find out they own a brownstone in NYC.

Anyway sorry for trailing off... I am not worried about that couple because I am pretty sure they will be just fine but that started a conversation on our way to my parents house in NJ about what would "we" do if one of us lost our jobs and our kids were in private school. Pull them out or keep them there for the "sake" of stability?

Also that reminds me of shows/articles about finances where the family are on the brink of bankruptcy but will not give up their kids activites.

My wife position is that the kids private school would be the absolute "last" thing to go while I am of the camp let them finish the school year but they are not going back next school year unless we find another job asap.

I guess more reason to live off 1 income when you have 2 working adults or have a nice/fat EF!

What do you guys think? How far are you willing to go for your kids stability? If you were facing financial hardship or cut in income, would their activities or school be the very last to go?

[Wisconsin Beth]

How old are the girls? Are we talking high school or grade school? If it's high school, I'd probably try to tough it out. If it's grade school, I'd have to think about it. And I'd want to get a sense of the girls - adventurous and outgoing and likely to make new friends easily or shy and quiet.

Providing stability is only part of having kids, the other part is doing what's best for them individually.

[midjd]

I would assume that having practiced law for longer than I have been alive, paying 35K/year in tuition, a stay at home wife that never worked since she said "I Do" they have serious $$$$$ in the bank and they can survive just fine while he is unemployed.

I wouldn't assume that at all... at least judging from the subjects of some articles posted here, it's the $250K+ earners who are hit the hardest by layoffs. Just because someone has pulled down a huge income for decades doesn't mean they've saved any of it.

I think it depends entirely on the type of hardship and how long you expect it to last. Job loss in a good market or with a comparable job lined up - probably wouldn't pull the kids out of school/activities. Job loss in a terrible market - would probably slash all expenses ASAP, even if it meant some disruption. I figure it's better to "disrupt" the kids' activities/lives and hang onto some cash than pay for things up to the bitter end and then give them less than a week to get used to eating ramen and living in a cardboard box (I'm thinking of BonnAp's tenants here).

That's all just speculative, since I don't have kids.

[kindthatjingles]

Karma for you... Good Topic!

If it is food on the table or private school, the private school would go.

If it is no vacation or private school then no vacation.

I will sacrifice for my kids, but not to the point of all of our detriment.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

It would really depend. If I could make other cuts that would keep them in their school I would do so because what happens when I get a job? Do I take them out of their new school and put them back into their old school? I don't see the point in shuffling them around if I don't have to.

If it meant I couldn't pay the mortage then I would take them out because it's better to adjust to a new school than being homeless.

Then there is a lot of grey area in-between the two. I'd give up a lot of my own stuff if I could before pulling them out of their school and sticking them in a new one.

[alabamagal]

We had a similar issue a couple of years ago with regards to private school. Of course private school here is nowhere near $35k, and our house is not quite $6 million, but we were going through rough times with business and then it got better and then I was laid off. We kept with the private school, although we really had to cut back on some things. We missed a vacation or two, but were never without food.

Another factor is how good (or bad) are the public schools. Where I am they are definitely some major problems, although many kids who go there succeed.

[zibazinski]

First off some of these schools offer scholarships. I know someone who got one for the few years they had financial troubles. Secondly, we are talking NYC here. You can't go to public schools unless you find a charter or a magnet and even then, good luck getting in.

[giramomma]

We do private. Like the PP, we don't pay 35K/year (more like 6K/year for two kids). And we live in a modest home.

It's not stability as much as it is quality of education.

Ours used to be good, but are getting worse and worse every year. And, I don't get the point of sending our kids to public school and then have to "school" them at home (or pay for a tutor) to keep their skills up or teach what I think the schools should be teaching.

I would make drastic, drastic cuts to preserve education. We wouldn't have to do drastic, drastic cuts though unless I was unemployed (at a day job) for over 3+ years straight.

[Firebird]

What do you guys think? How far are you willing to go for your kids stability? If you were facing financial hardship or cut in income, would their activities or school be the very last to go?

It would be the "last to go" in the sense that we'd be cutting other luxuries first, up to and including extracurricular activities of the kids. Although sometimes those are heavily linked to private school participation, so that would require some delicate balancing.

But yeah - if it was private school or mortgage payment, they could go somewhere else for a semester.

[Formerly SK]

Your numbers are large I can't compute them. A $6 million dollar house? 35K in tuition? A 20K watch?

I live in a very small world.

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2012 14:57:02 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Your numbers are large I can't compute them. A $6 million dollar house? 35K in tuition? A 20K watch?

I live in a very small world.

Come stay in NYC for a year, they will sound normal to you.

This is the place where a friend is paying 2k/month to rent a studio the size of my current living room; were another friend just purchased a studio for 430k.

NYC... price does not surprise me there anymore when I hear them. We both love the city and visit it has often as we can (doesn't hurt that we have family and friends that lives there) but their prices are just CRAZY!!!

My wife cousin that lives in Long Island but both her husband and her work in the city was hoping to move into the city when their kids were older (now they rely heavily on their family for childcare) are now rethinking that posibility since they would be looking at over 1 Million to purchase a co-op or condo that is big enough for the 5 of them or $5k-6k/month in rent.

The 2 hours round trip is looking better and better to them; they can afford it since combined they make about 400k but they would rather spend their money on other things besides living expenses: vacations, toys (they have a hummer), expensive bags/shoes, they expect their 3 boys to go to an Ivy League College like their mother and saving to pay for all 3.

[Firebird]

This is the place where a friend is paying 2k/month to rent a studio the size of my current living room; were another friend just purchased a studio for 430k.

I've lived in NYC and I remember the prices you're talking about, but it still totally MYSTIFIES me that there's ANYONE out there willing to pay that much for a STUDIO. Do people never anticipate adding another person to their household? My studio in NYC was perfect for me but even ONE more adult would have really made things difficult, let alone a child.

I just don't get the point of buying a studio, ESPECIALLY for that much money. Do people have no foresight whatsoever? It can't be easy to sell these things.

[kittensaver]

Okay maybe I'm the naive one here, but I think "stability" has nothing to do pricey schools and extra activities. Stability is knowing that I'm loved, protected and cared for by the primary adult(s) in my life. That houses and cars and money and activities come and go, but the lovingkindness, dependability and predictability of the adults in my life stays. That life is far from perfect and even my adults are not perfect, but they are a haven I can count on.

[zibazinski]

This is true but a good education is key and you won't get one in a public school in some areas.

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2012 15:18:09 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Okay maybe I'm the naive one here, but I think "stability" has nothing to do pricey schools and extra activities. Stability is knowing that I'm loved, protected and cared for by the primary adult(s) in my life. That houses and cars and money and activities come and go, but the lovingkindness, dependability and predictability of the adults in my life stays. That life is far from perfect and even my adults are not perfect, but they are a haven I can count on.

I don't think it was really about the price of the school or the fact it is a prestigious/elite private school but more about taking her two kids away from something that is familiar to them : friends, teachers, etc when they are already dealing with the fathers job loss and the possibility of having to sell their townhome.

One daughter is 16 and the other is 13. Their twins just turned 4.

[Deleted]

Message deleted by debthaven2.

[Firebird]

Okay maybe I'm the naive one here, but I think "stability" has nothing to do pricey schools and extra activities. Stability is knowing that I'm loved, protected and cared for by the primary adult(s) in my life. That houses and cars and money and activities come and go, but the lovingkindness, dependability and predictability of the adults in my life stays. That life is far from perfect and even my adults are not perfect, but they are a haven I can count on.

Eh. Sort of. Yes, it's important for your home life to be stable, i.e. non-abusive, and if it isn't there will be other (more serious) issues but it CAN also be traumatic to have external elements in your life constantly changing.

A friend of mine was always in a transient living situation growing up, mostly due to her mom's financial difficulties. She was a good mom in all other ways, and my friend never felt emotionally deprived. But all that shifting around was really hard on her in other ways.

So yes, the material stuff is secondary to a good and loving home. No one disputes that. No kid's going to be permanently scarred by switching schools or dropping horseback riding. But a lot of external transition can be difficult on a young kid. IMO.

[Deleted]

It would depend on how much we had in savings at the time but private school would be one of the last things to go after we cut all luxuries and I went back to work. DS is very sensitive right now, transitions are hard for him. I'm hoping that will change as he gets older.

I think one of the hard parts of this question is not having a crystal ball. I'd definitely stick it out if I knew the dad was getting a job in a year or two with a comparable salary, or if he was willing to sell the house for the kids education. If he's not able to get a job at his previous salary and has a hefty mortgage the equation changes.

[Deleted]

I think school is a stabilizing influence, but I'm a teacher. Kids have made friends, etc. Sure, they will make more, but when the rest of their life is falling apart, the same old same old at school is rather comforting.

A different view, but in eighth grade my son had a friend who was frequently depressed and never slept. His parents removed him from the private school where they both attended. The friend tried to commit suicide and failed. The psychologist's first piece of advice was to return him to the stability of that small private school. Unfortunately, they wouldn't readmit him because of the attempted sucide. I actually had one of the few arguments that my ex and I ever had over this issue. I had been that child's teacher; my ex was on the board of directors. They "couldn't" readmit him for fear that he might take out other kids if he attempted again. Our son also couldn't go over to his house although he was welcome at ours.

So school CAN be a stabilizing factor. And for anyone who cares about the "rest" of the story, that friend stayed in touch with all his private school friends and even me. A couple of years ago, the demons finally got him. At age 32, he jumped off a bridge, leaving behind a wife and child. No one's fault but really tragic. Maybe the hardest part was watching his thirty-something friends give a eulogy.

[quince]

It'd depend on our resources- out of work doesn't mean out of money, or even coming close to running out of money. If I had the means, school would be the last thing to go- although the age of the kids makes a difference. But then again, I'm someone who decided not to move when her parents did so I could finish out high school without changing schools.

[973beachbum]

One of the hardest parts of a discussion like this is that in all likely hood they can't take the kids out of their private school and when things get better just re enroll them again.

In NYC private schools are very hard to get into and once in are the way that younger children get their entrance. So this is a one way street. If they really can't afford to pay the $35K for their private school and still pay the mortgage and put food on the table then I would take them out if it was me. But I would do everything possible to let them stay if I knew there weren't any good other options.

I would start by selling the watch and anything else like it that could easily be sold and pay that bill first though. The other thing I would consider is selling the brownstone since prices in Manhattan have remained stable. Six million would buy a pretty nice house in towns with excellant public schools in the NY, NJ and CT area. ;D

[Deleted]

When DS was in his senior year at the military HS, which cost $12K per year for room, board and tuition, things got very bad at the consulting form where I worked. I went from a $130K salary to 65% (I think) of my billings- AFTER they were collected. Thank God a job came through that brought my income to a level I could live on, but of course I still had to pay the mortgage, etc. while I waited to get paid. Fortunately, I got a good discount for paying in full at the beginning of the academic year and there were no refunds if you left mid-year, so I kept him in. One month I paid the mortgage with a tax refund.

I would hope that people who sent their kids to private schools aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck. I agree that keeping them in the school has the advantages of stability in addition to whatever reasons motivated you to put them there in the first place. Typically it's because the public schools aren't working for your kid or you believe the private school will give them a leg up towards the Ivies or whatever. That doesn't change just because you lose your job.

I do NOT miss the greater NY lifestyle. Even if you want your kid to attend public schools, a tiny house in an area with good schools is beyond the means of the average worker or even the average working couple.

[Phoenix84]

"This is true but a good education is key and you won't get one in a public school in some areas."

If you can't afford it you can't afford it. People shouldn't hold onto the expense of private school if it is drowning you. I think you can succeed in almost any school, even bad public ones, with the right parental involvement.

[Phoenix84]

To answer the original question...

Depends on a number of factors. What is the realistic time frame of getting a job that pays what this guy is accustomed to? Do you have enough savings to cover the private school for any length of time? Can the wife work to help pay the bills? What is the overall financial picture? What else can be cut?

In the end it's all about priorities. If it meant selling the hummer, not going on vacation, or canceling piano classes then I'd do that to pay for the private school. But if it came down to either the mortgage, food, or the private school I'd the school. Besides, if the wife doesn't work and the public schools really are that bad just home school them.

Kids are more resilliant than most people give them credit for.

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2012 20:06:26 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Kids are more resilient than most people give them credit for.

I agree, but I'd be very careful about how I'd handle taking them out of private school. If they see it as a step down or it becomes a source of anxiety (if they can't afford school, do we have enough money for the mortgage or food?) they might have a hard time with it. I think I'd present it to them as part of a whole strategy to cut expenses.

DH has pointed out that depending on the local public school the kids may not be "street-smart" enough to fit in. They could also be stereotyped because they came from a private school. It could get ugly.

[zibazinski]

And they are girls. It'll be even harder on them. Check into scholarships at the private school.

[giramomma]

Another thing to consider is how easy it is to remove yourself from the contractual obligations of paying for tuition, and how one is paying for tuition. We elected to pay for tuition monthly (or very close to monthly). Payments begin in May, and are applied to the upcoming school year. If I lost my job in the middle of September, we would have already paid off close to half of our tuition obligations even though my kids would just have started school.

[Deleted]

The survival of the family ensures your children's stability. If i could no longer afford private school, then i would sit my kids down and say that i am sorry, we can no longer afford private school and put them in public school. Kids have to learn that life changes and we have to change and adapt and that includes everyone for the good of the family. Bankrupting yourself to keep your kids in a school you can't afford makes no sense at all.

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2012 14:07:29 GMT -5 midjd said:

I would assume that having practiced law for longer than I have been alive, paying 35K/year in tuition, a stay at home wife that never worked since she said "I Do" they have serious $$$$$ in the bank and they can survive just fine while he is unemployed.

I wouldn't assume that at all... at least judging from the subjects of some articles posted here, it's the $250K+ earners who are hit the hardest by layoffs. Just because someone has pulled down a huge income for decades doesn't mean they've saved any of it.
.

Just wanted to answer this.... I would have a hard time believing that someone that has worked for over 3 decades in a lucrative field had no savings and nothing to show for it.

I am assuming the house is paid off, but yes maybe they took out loans against it since it needed/still need some repairs... but I highly doubt they don't have enough saved to hold them thru his unemployement stint.

[Deleted]

Again, the thread is not about this family making it but more about if you were put in that situation (job loss, pay cut, hardship) and your kids were either in private school or had other activities... would you cut them or for the sake for their stability/since of normalcy keep on paying for it?

Bonn on her thread about her tenants mentionned how her tenants when filed for bankruptcy had a $1,600 line item for their kids schooling/activities. Their kids go to public school, so that money is spent on after school activities, etc. Those are parents that filed bankruptcy, unable to pay rent but still paying $1,600/month so their kids can keep doing what is their normal, keep some sort of stability in their life.

So how long would you hold on for the sake of your kids stability? Still the last thing to go or one of the first?