Rocky Mtn Saver
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 9:40:57 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Jun 29, 2012 17:18:55 GMT -5
One thing I wanted to mention while we're on the subject of evacuating your home. When people here were allowed to return after the fire had been controlled in their area, there were roadblocks and it was generally restricted to residents only. Which means that they had to show proof that they lived there. So, in addition to your other emergency supplies, always make sure you have something with you with your address on it! The fire evacuee I housed had some problem with this because she rents and doesn't receive mail at her rental house. She had to get the landlord to talk to the National Guard at the roadblock or go to the DMV and try to get her license changed. So keep it in mind!!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 24, 2024 5:24:29 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2012 17:23:19 GMT -5
You have to hope so - dying of smoke inhalation or lack of oxygen is probably quicker and less painful than being burned to death.
I'm all for police powers to keep order in an emergency. If you want to be a bonehead and stay behind in an evacuation zone, my instinct is to let you sign some monster release form and turn you loose to die of stupidity.
But if that makes it harder for law enforcement to do their job (because they can't tell who is a looter and who is a bonehead resident, perhaps), then no. You can put your own life at risk, but if you are endangering cops and fire fighters, then I'd give you the boot.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,148
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 29, 2012 21:30:21 GMT -5
Isn't that what house/renter's insurance is for? Renter's insurance doesn't cover everything. We can't get flood insurance as renters. If you don't have flood insurance your house isn't covered if you own it. My last apartment was in a 500 year flood plain and I was able to get flood insurance on my belongings. You can purchase flood insurance separately. It just doesn't cover the building that you don't own.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jun 30, 2012 11:31:34 GMT -5
Isn't that what house/renter's insurance is for? Renter's insurance doesn't cover everything. We can't get flood insurance as renters. If you don't have flood insurance your house isn't covered if you own it. But for me personally, it is just stuff. If it means me/my husband and my kid drowning vs someone looting my TV, screw the TV. We can always get another one someday. I'd rather be alive with the clothes on my back than dead floating around with all my stuff. I agree with everything you said. I have always said exactly the same thing until I was told I had to evacuate my home. For some reason being told you have to evacuate for a hurricaine is different than a house fire type of thing. IMO I knew Hurriciane Irene was huge and that it was headed straight for us. I am also all of 30 ft above sea level and a whopping half mile from the bay. ;D So it should have been a no brainer that we would take some stuff and leave. When the time came though I really didn't want to go. I don't know why, but maybe it had to do with being told I had to leave 3 days before anything happened and it looked beautiful out. Ironically where I went ended up evacuating to got hammered and my home didn't even lose power.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 30, 2012 11:47:19 GMT -5
This is a difficult topic. I think there can only be two ways to appraoch this. Either make it mandatory, or let people stay but don't rescue them when things go sideways. Don't let people stay then when the disaster you see coming occurs, go and send help. That just endangers the rescuers, not to mention the expense.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 30, 2012 11:49:48 GMT -5
Isn't that what house/renter's insurance is for? Renter's insurance doesn't cover everything. We can't get flood insurance as renters. If you don't have flood insurance your house isn't covered if you own it. My last apartment was in a 500 year flood plain and I was able to get flood insurance on my belongings. You can purchase flood insurance separately. It just doesn't cover the building that you don't own. I was offered flood insurance when I got my renter's insurance. I just laughed and said that since I was on the 4th floor if I needed flood insurance there'd be a lot more things to be worried about than replacing my stuff.
|
|
DVM gone riding
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 23:04:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,383
Favorite Drink: Coffee!!
|
Post by DVM gone riding on Jun 30, 2012 21:24:26 GMT -5
when they knew mt st helen's was going to blow they order mandatory evacuation, one old coot refused to leave, they let him stay, he died. But they also didn't risk anyone trying to MAKE him leave latter on. I think the police/fire has done their job once they go through a neighborhood ordering people to leave and then not letting anyone back into a dangerous area once they are gone.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 24, 2024 5:24:29 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 14:50:53 GMT -5
zib, what should we charge the hikers who's rescue last week cost one of the rescuers lives?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 1, 2012 15:17:10 GMT -5
Frankly, I'm sorry for the rescuer and as a rescuer, I wouldn't have risked my life for someone who did something that was clearly against the rules. Now, if you are following the rules and get hurt/ need rescuing and someone gets hurt rescuing you, that's part of the job. But someone who gets hurt or killed because you decided to go off the trail and hike the boonies, well, to me, that's a sort of manslaughter charge waiting to happen as well as civil liability. Big time. And if you don't have the dough to pay off, no declaring bankruptcy to get out of it.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,873
|
Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2012 8:33:14 GMT -5
Isn't that what house/renter's insurance is for? I get that it sucks if they take personal belongings too, but won't insurance replace the rest of the stuff? I was very surprised to read in our local paper how many people did not own homeowner's insurance. People who had paid their homes off or people who inherited their homes and didn't have to have it (because they had no mortgage). Plus most of the renters around here apparently did not have renter's insurance either. And I also have to say that insurance will not automatically write a check for everything you say you lost, and if you have a 150 year old hand made bed that your great grand uncles made for your grand mother as a wedding present, like I do, the insurance company will tell you it wasn't worth much because you didn't pay anything to get it, and unless you happen to have an appraisal for it (that didn't get blown away in the tornado) you're out of luck. Insurance people rank right up there with used car salesmen, IMHO.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,216
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2012 8:41:08 GMT -5
Lots of people got screwed during the Missouri flooding. They live in the flood plain so they have had flood insurance since day one. The claims adjusters are denying claims left and right. I forget the reasons now but people are really pissed off considering how much the insurance costs and they are required to carry it.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,873
|
Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2012 8:41:33 GMT -5
Isn't that what house/renter's insurance is for? Renter's insurance doesn't cover everything. We can't get flood insurance as renters. If you don't have flood insurance your house isn't covered if you own it. But for me personally, it is just stuff. If it means me/my husband and my kid drowning vs someone looting my TV, screw the TV. We can always get another one someday. I'd rather be alive with the clothes on my back than dead floating around with all my stuff. I agree with everything you said. I have always said exactly the same thing until I was told I had to evacuate my home. For some reason being told you have to evacuate for a hurricaine is different than a house fire type of thing. IMO I knew Hurriciane Irene was huge and that it was headed straight for us. I am also all of 30 ft above sea level and a whopping half mile from the bay. ;D So it should have been a no brainer that we would take some stuff and leave. When the time came though I really didn't want to go. I don't know why, but maybe it had to do with being told I had to leave 3 days before anything happened and it looked beautiful out. Ironically where I went ended up evacuating to got hammered and my home didn't even lose power. This is part of the problem, too. People don't have a lot of faith that the government does that good a job at predicting where a disaster will hit. We've all seen hurricanes that were projected to make landfall in one area swerve at the last minute and plow into a totally different spot of coastline. Or they say a fire is moving in one direction, then the wind changes and it goes off the wrong way. My personally I would evacuate if there was a risk of fire or hurricane, but I don't live in an area prone to either. I can see if I lived on the coast and time after time they had predicted a major hurricane and time after time it changed direction that I might be a little more casual about the evacuation orders.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,873
|
Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2012 8:48:00 GMT -5
Lots of people got screwed during the Missouri flooding. They live in the flood plain so they have had flood insurance since day one. The claims adjusters are denying claims left and right. I forget the reasons now but people are really pissed off considering how much the insurance costs and they are required to carry it. One of the favorite ways to squirm out of paying on an insurance claim is to say the damage was caused by some other, uninsured source. We're dealing with that right now, the culvert pipe that runs through our yard got clogged with debris following the tornado and our insurance company is trying to claim that while they are responsible for our culvert, because it's a structure on our property, they are saying it got clogged for 'natural' reasons. Like 50 lbs of roof shingles, dry wall and dead wood washing down through the storm ditch in front of our house is 'natural.' Still fighting with them about it, and the tornado was over a year ago. For the last few months they've just ignored us and failed to return our calls. About to hire a lawyer.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,216
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2012 8:50:10 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons they are denying people is they are saying it was not a "natural flood" it was due to the basin being drained in South Dakota. Therefore they should not have to pay anyone since it was a "man made disaster".
Never mind that they would not have had to drain the dam if there had not been record snow and record rain fall which last time I checked is not man made.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,873
|
Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2012 8:52:24 GMT -5
Frankly, I'm sorry for the rescuer and as a rescuer, I wouldn't have risked my life for someone who did something that was clearly against the rules. Now, if you are following the rules and get hurt/ need rescuing and someone gets hurt rescuing you, that's part of the job. But someone who gets hurt or killed because you decided to go off the trail and hike the boonies, well, to me, that's a sort of manslaughter charge waiting to happen as well as civil liability. Big time. And if you don't have the dough to pay off, no declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. I agree with this. Every year around here some drunk kid partying with his friends falls into a canyon and they have to call for the mountain rescue people to risk life and limb to fish him out. I know you can't just leave people stuck on the side of a ravine like that, but you sure can charge them (or their parents) the cost of dragging them out.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2012 9:14:27 GMT -5
Big time and no letting them off, period. If that means they work a crap community service job for minimum wage, that's what it means. It's called personal responsibility and it's sadly lacking in a lot of people.
|
|
Chocolate Lover
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:54:19 GMT -5
Posts: 23,200
|
Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 2, 2012 11:22:53 GMT -5
Not reading the entire thread but have any of you ever heard the 911 calls from various hurricanes? I don't recall how many Katrina ones got released but I've heard some from Hurricane Ivan in the preparedness commercials lately.
"We're in the attic and the water's rising and we have nowhere else higher to go" from some idiot that didn't evacuate when they were told, and they were on the coast.
"Sorry we can't send personnel out in the middle of the storm" from the 911 dispatcher.
You can stay but no one is coming to save your ass when it hits the fan is the message. It amazes me to think that anyone would even think it's possible to send a rescue team of any kind out in the middle of that kind of weather.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jul 2, 2012 11:41:18 GMT -5
People did not evacuate during Ike. One woman who died was 8 months pregnant. The state told people if you stay, take a permanent marker, and write your ID number on it so we can identify your body. Why would anyone stay for that? If you think the government has any idea what they're doing, you probably wouldn't. That's the problem with incompetence, when you're egregiously incompetent at so many things, you lose credibility, even when you're right. ETA: For example, we just had an evacuation about 6 months ago because a half block down the street there was a "police standoff" at a house...that was completely empty, lasted over 6 hours before they figured out nobody was even in the home. All because a "suspicious person was seen with a gun", the owner, who was packing up his truck for a hunting trip. Another one about 18 months ago for a fire at a chemical lab. We were about 5 blocks away and told to evacuate...one block away. Except it turns out they told everyone to move at least a block away, including people who were only 1 block away to start, so those people were safe at 2 blocks, but I'm unsafe at 5 blocks. Which means no matter how right the next person at my door is, I'm probably going to discount whether they have any idea what they're talking about when they tell me I need to get out.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Jul 2, 2012 11:47:51 GMT -5
In case anyone hasn't heard, 2 people did die in this fire. They were in the neighborhood that was under mandatory evacuations as of Saturday afternoon. They died when the fire hit their homes Tuesday evening.
So sad, but you wonder what happened & what the hell were they thinking. Even if they didn't evacuate when told, you would think they would have been packed and ready to go. A quarter of the city could see when the fire started coming over the ridge & the major increase in smoke should have been a warning sign to get out. And according to my boss, who was standing in his front yard when the fire crossed over the ridge, it sounded like a jet engine with the winds & the fire. The roar was incredibly loud & something you couldn't ignore.
Sad & even sadder that they still should have had time to get out if they had been at all prepared. Maybe they succumbed to smoke before they could get out. Maybe they were panicked & trying to do some last minute packing.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 24, 2024 5:24:29 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:28:29 GMT -5
Quick summation- all brick house, stainless steel roof, all metal soffits, fascia, window frames, door frames. Also metal screens on all attic vents behind the Louvre's. All steel outbuildings. Minimum of a 100 foot, cut to the ground firebreak. Outward facing impact sprinklers with a minimum 150 reach and a 50% overlap setup. Town water with a buried 2 gas water pump backups from the pond. I currently live in a very rural area with an as of today d-3 drought rating. I've been prepared since I built this property 12 years ago. Wouldn't the smoke penetrate your house and kill you? The basal square footage of the woods surrounding the house outside the clear cut is less than 20 and all hardwood. Any flame front should be fast and clean burning. The house is sealed enough that it would take a couple of hours for smoke or CO to penetrate to a problem level. In case of smoke intrusion into the interior I have two O3 generators that use out of phase ultra-v light that are very effective smoke removers. Sorry about the delay in answering your question.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 10, 2012 14:56:22 GMT -5
He should be allowed to stay if that is what he really wants. However, no one should have to go get him if he changes his mind or ends up in danger. The problem is that this will never happen. Some firefighter's children will end up growing up without a father so that some jerk could keep looters from getting his TV.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 10, 2012 15:04:01 GMT -5
The problem is that this will never happen. Sure it does. They've released plenty of tapes of 911 dispatchers telling people that help won't be coming because they chose to stay in an area that was under a mandatory evacuation. Firefighters are a very dedicated bunch, but even they have their limits, and they aren't going to volunteer for obvious suicide missions in order to save some old coot that refused to leave when told.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 10, 2012 15:04:10 GMT -5
It sure doesn't need to happen. I have a friend who is a fire chief and he does not risk his people for idiots. He talks all the time about the chiefs on the east coast who do. Even risking their lives for "stuff."
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 10, 2012 15:12:54 GMT -5
Lots of people got screwed during the Missouri flooding. They live in the flood plain so they have had flood insurance since day one. The claims adjusters are denying claims left and right. I forget the reasons now but people are really pissed off considering how much the insurance costs and they are required to carry it. It still floors me how many people choose to live in flood prone areas. When I first moved to Missouri, I was floored with how fast produce got bad and how fast my bathroom got moldy, even though I always lived on high ground. With all this talk about toxic mold, I can't imagine how anyone would think it is good idea to live somewhere that floods periodically. The thing that really cracked me up was some woman with a McMansion in a flood plain complaining about getting raw sewerage in her basement. If your basement is lower than the river, and shyt only flows in one direction, what the heck do you think is going to happen when the sewer department looses power or gets too overwhelmed to make water run uphill?
|
|