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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:15:57 GMT -5
What kind of team doesn't have enough players? Every team my kids have been on have plenty of subs and Second string. I've been on teams that don't have enough players. Sorry you have never seen it, but I have even as a kid. Nothing fun about getting all dressed up and ready to play and realize that because Becky, Jodie and Haley are on vacation, we don't have enough people to field a team today. And that was in elementary school. Then the team needs to take on more subs and extras. It isn't the kid's problem if the team and league cant' recruit enough players. My kid is not responsible for poor planning and league development on someone else's part.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2012 16:16:20 GMT -5
I never forced the kids to take part in any extra-curricular activity if they didn't want to participate. If they wanted to quit in the middle of something, however, they were going to have to sit down and listen to me expound on why that wasn't a very responsible, or thoughtful thing to do, and how they should think of others besides themselves. I'm not sure whether their consciences got to them, or whether they just didn't want to have to hear it anymore, but they never quit in the middle.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 27, 2012 16:20:03 GMT -5
I've been on teams that don't have enough players. Sorry you have never seen it, but I have even as a kid. Nothing fun about getting all dressed up and ready to play and realize that because Becky, Jodie and Haley are on vacation, we don't have enough people to field a team today. And that was in elementary school. Then the team needs to take on more subs and extras. It isn't the kid's problem if the team and league cant' recruit enough players. My kid is not responsible for poor planning and league development on someone else's part. Umm teams were divided by township. There were only enough girls in our township to barely field one team. We aren't talking about suburbia. This is the boondocks. You have who you have.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:20:09 GMT -5
Then the team needs to take on more subs and extras. It isn't the kid's problem if the team and league cant' recruit enough players. My kid is not responsible for poor planning and league development on someone else's part. And then they all show up and we have to listen to the parents whine because we've got 10 kids on the bench every inning. It's a balancing act. The league went with 15 when you only need 10. If they're all showing up pretty consistently, and not dropping mid season, it would have been plenty. Even with a girl getting hurt or taking vacation here or there. It's harder than you'd think. Say we have 48 girls total sign up for summer ball. We can make three teams with 16 girls per team, which is plenty to make sure each team can field a team every game. However, that also means that in any given inning each team has 6 girls just sitting on the bench instead of actually playing softball. We could instead make 4 teams of 12 girls each, which would work as long as they all show up, and everyone would basically play the entire game. However, if people drop mid season it would really hurt their team.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:21:12 GMT -5
Nothing in life is forever. And, people get sick, move, get hurt, quit, change their mind or whatever. That is simply part of life. As if people can't ever leave anything and move on to something else. People get bent out of shape when someone decides to quit a job and go somewhere else. Why? People come in go in everything from work to teams to hobbies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:22:10 GMT -5
Then the team needs to take on more subs and extras. It isn't the kid's problem if the team and league cant' recruit enough players. My kid is not responsible for poor planning and league development on someone else's part. And then they all show up and we have to listen to the parents whine because we've got 10 kids on the bench every inning. It's a balancing act. The league went with 15 when you only need 10. If they're all showing up pretty consistently, and not dropping mid season, it would have been plenty. Even with a girl getting hurt or taking vacation here or there. You have your opinion, i have mine. I am HEAVILY involved in sports. I also coach. I would rather have a kid who really wants to play than one who is forced to be there by his parents.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 27, 2012 16:24:00 GMT -5
...:::"Becky, Jodie and Haley are on vacation":::... Becky... Jodie...Haley.... obviously they were at stripper camp. Is that where they learn to give a back story like "I'm actually a pre-school teacher, and I'm doing this to make extra money to buy my kids school supplies". Too funny. BTW Haley is actually the controller at the bank in town now and on her second marriage. Jodie got pregnant our senior year of high school and married her high school boyfriend and they now have 2 children. I lost track of Becky after high school. She played 2 years of college softball at a community college, but I don't know what she did after that. Maybe she did become a stripper. ;D Probably not now that we've all turned 30.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 16:24:01 GMT -5
Geez. Thread move fast. I'd like to think that even parents learn some lessons, inadvertently, when what they think is a punishment turns out to be a reward. I know you didn't feel good about dropping, but its kind of funny when a parent gives a consequence, thinking it will whip the kid in the shape, but the kid is actually like "really?!?!? GREAT!". Very, very true. In retrospect, I can see that my heart wasn't in it anymore. If it had been, I would have forced myself to go to practice rather than dropping the sport. I think I mostly felt bad because I DID feel like a quitter and like that was somehow "wrong." The simple truth was that I didn't have what it took to practice for hours every day anymore. I wasn't into it that way anymore; I preferred drama. So actually, thinking about it a bit more, what my parents did was pretty wise. Calling my bluff by saying I had to quit if I missed was a good way to gauge how serious I was about the sport - a kid who really wanted to keep doing it would never have gone for that. Nevertheless, don't let her out at this point. She can deal with it for 4 more weeks.I think since there's only 3.5 weeks left in the season and the other kids would suffer somewhat if she dropped, she should probably stick it out. Just my offhand opinion. I like my kids too.. that's why I want them to figure out some of life's "harder" lessons early on when the consequences aren't as severe. But I think there's more than one "hard, valuable" life lesson in here. Yes, it's important to finish what you start - except for when what you started is no longer worth it. There is NO TEAM on the planet that "can't play" without one of its' members. What if that person got hurt, moved or whatever. Life goes on. Sheesh. So since I mentioned that I was heavy into drama when I quit gymnastics, here is an applicable analogy - we once had a girl drop out of a production two weeks before it started. She had a supporting role - not quite big enough that she had an official understudy, but big enough that she seriously fucked us over by dropping out. I don't remember why she dropped out and I didn't really care. We fortunately were able to promote one of the chorus members who happened to be a quick hand at memorizing, so yes - technically we were able to "go on without her." But quitting THAT late in the production left us with very few options. Sometimes it really does hurt the whole "team" when people quit close to the end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:27:15 GMT -5
But, you managed. That is life. You manage. Someone moves, gets hurt, quits, whatever. The real life Lesson is for the remaining team to learn to make do and to come together and get through whatever adversity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:28:42 GMT -5
Good Thread! Lots of interesting discussion and perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:30:01 GMT -5
Another point. If you teach your team that ONE player is sooo valuable that the team cannot manage without them, what message does that send? As the coach, i would say, we are sorry to see you go, but then i would tell my team that we are a team and we can step up to the plate.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 27, 2012 16:31:13 GMT -5
Part of being a kid is learning and growing in a variety of ways and finding out who you really are and what you have a passion for. If you "make" kids always finish something that is miserable for them, they are also going to learn to not try new things because they are going to feel obligated to do it for the rest of their lives. There are lots of things i do for awhile. I try new things, when i get bored or want to move on, i do. As a result i have learned to play multiple instruments and have learned alot of things and done a lot of fun things. I i forced myself to continue everything i didn't like , what would be the point? Yes, there are absolutely things in life that are your obligations such as family, work and so forth. And, there are other things that are not. We are talking about a month. It is not going to hurt ANYONE to have the kid do it for a month. I wanted to quit summer jobs early. I've wanted to quit sports before the end of seaons,I wanted to quit band too when I had a horrible teacher. Everytime, my parents told me to stick it out. All of those things had a finite end point. I don't think many people knew I wanted to quit. I didn't show up with a bad attitude. I didn't try to get fired from my summer jobs. I still did them because that is what you do. I stuck out those last 2 weeks that summer at the county instead of sitting at home. I stuck the last month of the season. I learned that it didn't kill me to do that. That sometimes we do things we don't like. I certainly wasn't miserable and I didn't make everyone else miserable. If there is an end date in sight, then you have to stick it out. I would not stay at a full time job I was miserable at because there isn't an end date in sight. I did not stick out a class my senior year of high school that I absolutely hated because the end date was too far away. A month or two, stick it out. Longer than that, then think about the reasons.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:32:48 GMT -5
What is it that you most want your daughter to learn as a result of this choice? I don't know. I think that's why I haven't made up my mind yet. I mostly didn't want her to make the choice based on fear. She'd just gotten hit, and seemed fine, until they were getting ready for the game the next day then she mentioned that she didn't want to play. It didn't pass the sniff test with me. I think she was just afraid of getting hit again, and probably one of the most important lessons I can teach my kids is not to let fear rule their lives. Yesterday she played both games in our double header. She looked nervous the first time she stepped into the batters box, but she did it, and made a pretty good showing of herself. So, she got back on the horse as it were. If she still wants to talk about quitting I'd be more inclined to let her do so now.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 16:34:28 GMT -5
You mean you don't have a college degree, but you've been making SENSE all this time? I feel so cheated! I have a degree; I went back eventually and finished in December of 2009. I still say dropping out when I did was the best decision I ever made. Going back later, on my own terms, and paying for it myself was an almost equally good decision. Especially if she finds your stash. What is it that you most want your daughter to learn as a result of this choice? If you "make" kids always finish something that is miserable for them, they are also going to learn to not try new things because they are going to feel obligated to do it for the rest of their lives. The rest of their lives and 3.5 weeks are not exactly equivalent. I wasn't too crazy about softball myself toward the end there, and I still finished the season. Didn't kill me. Becky... Jodie...Haley.... obviously they were at stripper camp. Is that where they learn to give a back story like "I'm actually a pre-school teacher, and I'm doing this to make extra money to buy my kids school supplies". I'm liking Snarky WWBG You have your opinion, i have mine. I am HEAVILY involved in sports. I also coach. I would rather have a kid who really wants to play than one who is forced to be there by his parents. I think you're confusing the concept of "having to do something forever" with "sticking to a finite commitment you made that impacts other people." They're NOT equivalent. No one is saying Dark should make Little Dark play softball until she's out of high school; that would be stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:34:36 GMT -5
Another point. If you teach your team that ONE player is sooo valuable that the team cannot manage without them, what message does that send? As the coach, i would say, we are sorry to see you go, but then i would tell my team that we are a team and we can step up to the plate. you seriously aren't getting it. If you need x number of players in order to play and you have x-1, nobody gets to play. so when someone just decides they don't want to play anymore and that means that for any given game if someone on the team is sick or on vacation, there aren't enough people, how do you think the rest of the team feels. and if they make the teams bigger then it's a lot harder to manage since everyone has to have their at-bats and time in the field.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:36:40 GMT -5
If you teach your team that ONE player is sooo valuable that the team cannot manage without them, what message does that send? As the coach, i would say, we are sorry to see you go, but then i would tell my team that we are a team and we can step up to the plate. I'm not teaching the team anything here. This is a private discussion with my daughter, and the internet, and it'll stay that way. If she decides to stay I won't say a word to the team, and if she decides to leave I won't be making any grand announcements to the team either. We'll quickly explain that she won't be playing anymore, and move on with practice.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:38:56 GMT -5
and if they make the teams bigger then it's a lot harder to manage since everyone has to have their at-bats and time in the field. Tell me about it. You should see the color coded spreadsheets we've had to come up with to track where everyone is. We're trying to get every kid equal playing time instead of some getting to play the whole game and some getting the bare minimum. It's a nightmare. And we have to make a new one every game, cause it's always a different kid out on vacation or whatever. Oh, and each pitcher can only pitch so many innings per week, and we try to have them benched the inning before they pitch so they can warm up, and we try to give the catchers a break every couple innings, cause it's hot as balls with all that gear on, etc., etc. I swear we spend more time making each games line-up than the actual game takes.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 27, 2012 16:39:43 GMT -5
Personally, if it were the beginning of the season and she wanted to quit I would let her because I honestly don't think making someone play a sport they hate accomplishes anything; however, due to the fact that it is close to the end of the season AND her recent accident with the ball could be a determining factor in her not wanting to play I would say just finish it out. Also, I know you like them to play at least one sport but sports might not be her thing. There are other ways to get exercise like dance, gymnastics, hiking, etc. She might be better suited for some other type of activity.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:42:16 GMT -5
Also, I know you like them to play at least one sport but sports might not be her thing. There are other ways to get exercise like dance, gymnastics, hiking, etc. She might be better suited for some other type of activity. I'm totally fine with them not playing a sport. I would like for them to stay involved in one physical activity. It doesn't have to be sport or team related though. It could be something totally non competitive and solo. Like archery, or whatever.
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Jun 27, 2012 16:44:42 GMT -5
This is difficult, since this really is about what kind of life lesson you want to teach her. Not letting fear rule your life is a good one, I think. Assuming she will not bring up again quitting, you did well I think. Whatever the outcome, do talk to her about decision-making, signing up because she thinks that her parents want her to do something or another. Girls are prone to not speaking their minds and being very accomodating to their parents until a certain age. While this makes for a nice conflictless every day life, it's not benefitting anyone in the long run. On principle, I agree that she should finish what she signed up for, considering that it's a team sport and there is only 3 weeks remaining of the season.
I was not very athletic either as kid, but this was more due to my parents not really making an effort to engage me in different kinds of sports than lack of interest or talent. If she does not warm to softball, I would make sure that she can try out more sports (also individual ones) in the next semester. Some degree of exercise should be part of a healthly lifestyle...and believe me, it's much much harder to walk into a gym/on a sports field after 20, or 30 or 40 than as a kid with supporting parents.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 16:44:56 GMT -5
But, you managed. That is life. You manage. Someone moves, gets hurt, quits, whatever. The real life Lesson is for the remaining team to learn to make do and to come together and get through whatever adversity.
Um, yes, we "managed" but that doesn't mean it was cool of her to up and quit, leaving us in the lurch two weeks before showtime. You "manage" when a group member isn't pulling their weight on a school project too, but that doesn't make it okay for one person to coast while everyone else is working.
If you teach your team that ONE player is sooo valuable that the team cannot manage without them, what message does that send?
I think the lesson is not that one player is sooooooo valuable but that even team members that don't play as much ARE valuable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of a team sport (or one of them, at least) is to teach kids the value of working with others to achieve a common goal. That point is lost somewhat if you make it "every player for him/herself."
Part of the reason I liked gymnastics was that it was a solitary sport (for the most part). I've never been much of a team player. Guess what? That attitude occasionally hurts me in the real world. Learning to be interdependent with others is a huge part of being an adult, unless you want to live in a cave somewhere.
I mostly didn't want her to make the choice based on fear.
Have you told her that?
I agree that not letting fear rule her life is incredibly important. That's definitely among the most important life lessons I want MY kids to learn. It's possible she hasn't even put this equation together yet:
I got hit in the back + x = I don't want to play
X = fear
She might be simply thinking "I don't want to play" without realizing what's driving that feeling.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 27, 2012 16:49:07 GMT -5
...:::"...but then i would tell my team that we are a team and we can step up to the plate...":::...
And since you are actually TALKING about baseball, all these insipid, tired analogies actually apply!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2012 16:49:52 GMT -5
Have you told her that? I probably talk to my kids more about fear than anything else. My favorite quote of all time, and my kids have already heard it enough times to start rolling their eyes by the second word is, "Fear defeats more people than any other one thing in the world." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 27, 2012 16:50:57 GMT -5
...:::...cause it's hot as balls...":::...
Balls is funny because it could be referring to both the piece of game equipment, AND to testicles.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 16:53:36 GMT -5
I probably talk to my kids more about fear than anything else. My favorite quote of all time, and my kids have already heard it enough times to start rolling their eyes by the second word is, "Fear defeats more people than any other one thing in the world." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Good. Because I'm 100% with you on this one. Fear is never a good reason to stop doing something. By the same token, if it's fear that's keeping her in these sports (fear of your disapproval, fear of not living up to her sister, fear of letting the team down) then it also shouldn't stop her from leaving. Fine line, for sure. You know what the great part of this for me is? Your kids are 10 years ahead of mine. By the time MY daughter reaches that age, I get to draw on all of your experiences all the while knowing how they ended up turning out!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 17:08:36 GMT -5
I mostly didn't want her to make the choice based on fear.
Dark, if this is truly your concern, I have a suggestion. Make her play for one more week. Like the proverbial "getting back on the horse".
I'm of two minds. I always encouraged / wanted my kids to finish whatever activity they had signed up for. But I'm sure I made a few exceptions along the way.
This would be my criteria in this situation: Did your DD2 sign up because she was dying to play, or because her older sister played? Because you and Loop are so involved? Because you coach? Because having both girls in the same place at the same time makes all your lives easier?
If DD signed up because she was dying to do it, I'd probably make her finish the season. But if she signed up "by default", because it was sort of "expected" of her because the rest of the family is very involved, and she was tacitly encouraged to do so because it makes all your lives easier because you're all in the same place at the same time, I'd give her a pass, and let her quit (after making her do one more week or a couple more games to hopefully help her get over being hit by that ball.)
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 27, 2012 17:11:58 GMT -5
The more I read YM's views the more I think this crowd should be cloned - I've never met a bunch of more perfect, we-do-it-the-right-way and teach our-children-all-the-right-lessons folks Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 17:18:18 GMT -5
The more I read YM's views the more I think this crowd should be cloned - I've never met a bunch of more perfect, we-do-it-the-right-way and teach our-children-all-the-right-lessons folks I don't get that impression, but it could just be that I tend to disagree with people who think they're right about everything on principle
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 27, 2012 17:30:34 GMT -5
The more I read YM's views the more I think this crowd should be cloned - I've never met a bunch of more perfect, we-do-it-the-right-way and teach our-children-all-the-right-lessons folks Lena I thought it was more "This is what I did and why it sucked so here is how we'll be doing it with/for you..." lessons. Then when they have kids they'll do it the opposite because they are now screwed up too and then we'll all come full circle and embrace our screwed up selves of all generations. Or am I confusing it with EEers?
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 27, 2012 17:37:25 GMT -5
Well if you're going to be in my head quit hogging all the wine! And take those damn shoes off! ;D
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