susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 17:15:35 GMT -5
The thread about the MBA/CPA situation got me thinking....Can you get promoted out of a job?
About a week ago I noticed a guy at our small business now has the title "Director of X" in his email signature. I will call him Steve. DH told me that Steve asked for this title at his annual review. Steve's title is a non-factor since he only interacts internally and doesn't supervise anyone, so DH threw him a bone. Really, it is silly since Steve is a one man show and people with "Director of X" typically have all sorts of skills and education that Steve does not, including a MS or PhD in statistics. Steve has a bachelor's in business and does not posess advanced math skills.
The problem is that Steve has been telling me that now his goal is "just to get paid the market average for his position." He makes 75k and his real position pays in the 40-75k range in our city. The "Director of X" position can pay double that, but that is not Steve's real position! We like Steve. He is a hard worker, but he will have to increase his skills to increase his salary since he is at the very top of the pay scale for our city/his position.
Do you know people who convince themselves that their position is worth more than the market is willing to pay? Or, do you know people who fight for promotions/salaries that their skills do not justify? Can this kind of ambition/delusion hurt your career?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 26, 2012 17:24:45 GMT -5
Yes, DHs coworker. He wanted to be hired as Asst Director of Pharmacy as his first real job. He also keeps trying to called Clinical Pharmacist so he doesn't have to do the "tech stuff" like checking prescriptions for errors before they go out to the patients.
It hasn't seen to hurt him other than his coworkers think he's a douchebag.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 17:27:09 GMT -5
This is the reason that titles can be so difficult to obtain in bigger corporate structures.
I worked in a HUGE press group (mainly magazines) for 18 years, in their small English-language division. Their rule was that once you had a title (ie Editor in Chief), you could apply to any job with that title in the group.
Many years ago, they gave an American woman the title of Editor-in-Chief of our small division of English-language mags. After a few years there, she applied to be Editor-in-Chief of their flagship (French) mag. They said, NO WAY. It got ugly, and she quit. No loss, she was a beech, and not particularly competent.
But, from then on, they made DARN sure NEVER to give a native English-speaker that title again. Assistant Editor in Chief? No problem. But since then (about 15 years ago) Editor-in-Chief of those mags has ALWAYS been reserved for a French person.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 17:31:42 GMT -5
This said, I think your DH made a mistake in giving "Steve" that title. He should have found some other title that would give Steve the impression of "moving on up", but not a title that would allow Steve to dream that he suddenly deserved twice his salary. Steve is certainly deluded, but frankly, your DH visibly helped Steve along in his delusion by giving him that title.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 17:37:18 GMT -5
The other way around this is for your DH to tell Steve, hey, I threw you a bone and gave you the title. Now what are you going to do about getting the skills?
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 17:38:10 GMT -5
Debt, I agree. DH doesn't care if internal people call themselves yellow submarines, but he should understand that people connect their title to their salary expectations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 17:43:43 GMT -5
Susan, the Yellow Submarine bit cracked me up! My mother (who was Russian) always used to say, you can call me a pot, just don't put me in the oven LOL.
If Steve does become a PITA as a result of his new title, your DH can always ask him exactly what he is doing to get the skill set to match his new title, and how actively he is pursuing it.
Susan, I read your first thread, but didn't comment on it. Maybe the solution could be your DH promoting you to HR?!
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 17:48:43 GMT -5
Debt, good ideas. Thanks!
Actually, I handle most of HR. Hiring (job ads, interviewing), benefits, pay, documentation, etc....
DH is the negotiator, so he handles salary and titles. I think you are right that I should start sitting in on these meetings because he has two categories for things: Category 1: 5 alarm the house is on fire and Category 2: Everything else.
You can guess how much importance he places on everything in Category 2.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 17:53:19 GMT -5
Yes, I certainly can LOL!
So, Susan, you are in the EXACT opposite situation from our friend Steve.
Steve has the title but not the skills. You have the skills, you are doing the work, but you don't have the title (or the salary).
Maybe your DH would be happy / relieved to hand over dealing with the titles and salaries to you as well as the rest of the HR stuff? It sounds like that's where your strengths lie.
You can always remind your DH that you can always discuss it together before you make a decision (at least initially, ie if he wants to do a "trial period").
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Jun 26, 2012 18:03:19 GMT -5
When my title changed, I forgot what it was and had to look on the website.
Catering and Events Manager. A department of one. I set my own hours. I define my own responsibilities (within reason.) My department closes early most days during the summer. ;D
It's good to be me.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 18:13:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Debt!
HR is something I like, but, given the very small nature of our company, it really doesn't take that much time each week.
DH wouldn't want to hand salary negotiations over to me because I am a horrible negotiator, but I think you are right that I should at least start sitting in on these meetings and giving him input before he hands out more titles.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 18:16:09 GMT -5
When my title changed, I forgot what it was and had to look on the website. Catering and Events Manager. A department of one. I set my own hours. I define my own responsibilities (within reason.) My department closes early most days during the summer. ;D It's good to be me. Yeah, I actually don't have a title. Or, I have many. I have signed letters/emails with probably 5 different titles this month for all of the small business hats I wear. I don't care at all, but for external letters/emails it can help other people feel more comfortable about giving me information or their business.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 18:18:26 GMT -5
Yes, DHs coworker. He wanted to be hired as Asst Director of Pharmacy as his first real job. He also keeps trying to called Clinical Pharmacist so he doesn't have to do the "tech stuff" like checking prescriptions for errors before they go out to the patients. It hasn't seen to hurt him other than his coworkers think he's a douchebag. This really is douchey. Trying to get a big title for your first job is lame, but trying to get a title that takes away duties on top of that is downright douchetastic.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 18:29:26 GMT -5
HR is something I like, but, given the very small nature of our company, it really doesn't take that much time each week.
Are you guys expecting to grow? HR is one of those jobs that starts out as one random person's annoying responsibility but quickly grows into a full time job all by itself. Absolutely you should have that job if your DH trusts you enough to do it and you want to stay in the business.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 18:36:13 GMT -5
HR is something I like, but, given the very small nature of our company, it really doesn't take that much time each week. Are you guys expecting to grow? HR is one of those jobs that starts out as one random person's annoying responsibility but quickly grows into a full time job all by itself. Absolutely you should have that job if your DH trusts you enough to do it and you want to stay in the business. DH would have no trouble giving me that job. But you guys already helped me decide that I am not going to work with him after this winter (unless I love the new business we are starting in the fall)! We are growing/planning to grow, but one of the great things about our business model is that we can grow significantly without having to increase hires much. We increase 1099 workers (legitimately) at a much faster rate than W-2 workers. 1099's are not HR intensive for me at all. W-9, monthly payment, 1099 at the end of the year. Done.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 26, 2012 18:49:42 GMT -5
Hm. There are a couple of ways I can see this working for Steve.
If your husband is one of those who only acts on things that are Category 1 House on Fire, he may also be one of those who is lazy about hiring/firing and other personnel issues. Steve and the others may have noticed that and one way to start making that work for them is to just inch up into the place they want to be; even if your DH doesn't think Steve is at that level Steve may be right in gambling that DH will just sigh and go with the flow - if it all happens fairly gradually - rather than fire Steve and have to do all the work of finding and training a replacement. If it sounds like I have first hand knowledge of this, it's because that's exactly how my DH is and some of the employees have realized and are capitalizing on it. Nothing worth fighting about, but I can see it.
Or, Steve may be getting things set up to look for another job. As people say, it's easier to find a new job when you have a job. Not only that, it's easier to leap to the next higher level job if you currently hold that title. Steve may be thinking about how things will look on his resume, so it's important to have that title which implies a certain level of skills.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 19:04:51 GMT -5
Hm. There are a couple of ways I can see this working for Steve. If your husband is one of those who only acts on things that are Category 1 House on Fire, he may also be one of those who is lazy about hiring/firing and other personnel issues. Steve and the others may have noticed that and one way to start making that work for them is to just inch up into the place they want to be; even if your DH doesn't think Steve is at that level Steve may be right in gambling that DH will just sigh and go with the flow - if it all happens fairly gradually - rather than fire Steve and have to do all the work of finding and training a replacement. If it sounds like I have first hand knowledge of this, it's because that's exactly how my DH is and some of the employees have realized and are capitalizing on it. Nothing worth fighting about, but I can see it. Or, Steve may be getting things set up to look for another job. As people say, it's easier to find a new job when you have a job. Not only that, it's easier to leap to the next higher level job if you currently hold that title. Steve may be thinking about how things will look on his resume, so it's important to have that title which implies a certain level of skills. Milee, you are right on the money. Fortunately, I am in the process of creating training manuals/materials for every position in the company. Want to guess whose position I started with? I looked on indeed and monster for jobs like Steve actually does and wants to believe he does. His title wouldn't even get him in the door of the jobs he wants to believe he does. He is at the top of the food chain for the job he actually does. I actually hope he does apply for some jobs because it would be a nice reality check for him. Alternatively, if I am wrong and he is able to get a better position, we can hire his replacement at 55k. It will cause some disruption, but it will be worth 20k a year in the long run. ETA: Steve told me that he was thinking about his resume. Problem is, he went from X, to Director of X. He should have had a Senior X in the middle if he wants to have a shot at making it look legit, especially with his education. When he goes into an interview and they ask him how big his team was as Director of X, I think he is going to look pretty foolish saying he was a team of 1 who directed himself.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 26, 2012 19:18:55 GMT -5
Susan, the Yellow Submarine bit cracked me up! My mother (who was Russian) always used to say, you can call me a pot, just don't put me in the oven LOL. That is actually one of many very colorful and descriptive Russian sayings/proverbs. Some of them, such as the one your mother used, translate well into English and are understandable in a Western cultural context. Others, not so much.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 19:23:22 GMT -5
Part of me kind of admires the guy's cojones. Part of me thinks that he's not really serious about advancing in his career if he's not creating the skill set to match the increased title, but it's possible he just hasn't had the opportunity yet. (You guys ARE in almost the opposite situations, susanb.)
Sometimes being in a small company can be a gift and a curse. You can definitely hit a ceiling in a defined role and the company doesn't have the resources or inclination to train you into a higher role. So getting the title OF that higher role hoping to make the leap in your next job strikes me as kind of a neat trick.
At some point he needs to be willing to put in the work to get the additional experience, to be sure. And I hope he doesn't sell himself at his next interview as an experienced "Director of X" if his true experience is more in line with "Senior X." But if he can't get the right kind of experience at your company and is looking to move on, I don't think this is a ridiculous way of going about it - as long as he doesn't oversell himself during interviews.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 19:33:04 GMT -5
Part of me kind of admires the guy's cojones, but a much bigger part of me thinks that he's not really serious about advancing in his career if he's not creating the skill set to match the increased title. You guys ARE in almost the opposite situations, susanb. That being said, sometimes being in a small company can be a gift and a curse. You can definitely hit a ceiling in a defined role and the company doesn't have the resources or inclination to train you into a higher role. So getting the title OF that higher role hoping to make the leap in your next job strikes me as kind of a neat trick. At some point he needs to be willing to put in the work to get the additional experience, to be sure. And I hope he doesn't sell himself at his next interview as an experienced "Director of X" if his true experience is more in line with "Senior X." But if he can't get the right kind of experience at your company and is looking to move on, I don't think this is a ridiculous way of going about it - as long as he doesn't oversell himself during interviews. Great points, Firebird. Actually, he is an X. Senior X would be a really big stretch since Senior X also required abilities in statistics. Steve asked me about how to do a math computation that involved percentages last week. The thing you are dead on about is that Steve can't get the experience he needs at a small company to become Director of X. He also can't get that experience without some serious math skills, usually demonstrated by an advanced degree in math or stats. We do understand that working for a small company creates some limitations, which is why we pay 15% above market and offer a lot of flexibility - as long as people put in their time, they can, to a large extent, pick their schedules. Also, people can wear anything they want, have great benefits and don't have to deal with much in the way of office politics. Steve likely isn't going anywhere soon because to get the skills he needs for the position he wants he would have to 1. take a pay cut get his foot in the door at a large company and 2. get his booty into a grad program. He lives way beyond his means, so option 1 is out. He has two kids, one of which is a new baby, so option 2 is not very likely.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 19:36:33 GMT -5
Great points, Firebird. Actually, he is an X. Senior X would be a really big stretch since Senior X also required abilities in statistics. Steve asked me about how to do a math computation that involved percentages last week. Good grief. Okay, I agree with the people who said he's got some delusions of grandeur going on. I'm guessing he's some kind of analyst - percentages are kindergartner stuff for an analyst. We do understand that working for a small company creates some limitations, which is why we pay 15% above market and offer a lot of flexibility - as long as people put in their time, they can, to a large extent, pick their schedules. Also, people can wear anything they want, have great benefits and don't have to much in the way of office politics. Sounds like an awesome place to work
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 19:39:24 GMT -5
By the way, what kind of job are you interested in pursuing when you leave your husband's company?
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 19:41:02 GMT -5
Great points, Firebird. Actually, he is an X. Senior X would be a really big stretch since Senior X also required abilities in statistics. Steve asked me about how to do a math computation that involved percentages last week. Good grief. Okay, I agree with the people who said he's got some delusions of grandeur going on. I'm guessing he's some kind of analyst - percentages are kindergartner stuff for an analyst. We do understand that working for a small company creates some limitations, which is why we pay 15% above market and offer a lot of flexibility - as long as people put in their time, they can, to a large extent, pick their schedules. Also, people can wear anything they want, have great benefits and don't have to much in the way of office politics. Cool, can I come work there? Just kidding (unless you're in the Seattle area!) I love my current company most of the time. Good guess. ;D
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 19:43:43 GMT -5
By the way, what kind of job are you interested in pursuing when you leave your husband's company? I don't know. That is a good question. My skills are wide, but not deep. I am thinking that corporate training might be a good way to combine my teaching and business experience, especially after I create these training manuals.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 19:52:08 GMT -5
I don't know. That is a good question. My skills are wide, but not deep. I am thinking that corporate training might be a good way to combine my teaching and business experience, especially after I create these training manuals.
Yeah, I feel your pain. I'm in a similar position. It's difficult to predict what you're going to feel like doing in a year's time when you're used to doing a lot of different things!
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jun 27, 2012 8:42:38 GMT -5
Yes, DHs coworker. He wanted to be hired as Asst Director of Pharmacy as his first real job. He also keeps trying to called Clinical Pharmacist so he doesn't have to do the "tech stuff" like checking prescriptions for errors before they go out to the patients. It hasn't seen to hurt him other than his coworkers think he's a douchebag. I am a little surprised he is permitted to get away with calling himself a clinical pharmacist, given that most clinical pharmacists have additional residency training and are board certified. As for Steve, a title is just a title without the relevant work experience to back it up. And I think he'll be surprised when he next looks for a job (if he's not already) that they will judge him on his qualifications and experience not whatever title he had.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 27, 2012 9:36:31 GMT -5
I worked with one guy, years ago when I was a lab tech at a chemical company, who wanted to be called 'chemist.' The lab had lab tech positions at various levels based on how long you'd been with the company, but we were all 'lab techs.' The minimum educational requirement was a 2 year chemistry degree or a 4 year degree with lots of chemistry - but you didn't have to have just a chemistry degree - and three of us had 4 year BS degrees in science fields. One had a 2 year AS in chemistry. Since he had an actual chemistry degree he lobbied hard to get the chemist title, plus more pay. Even though all of us did exactly the same job, he felt that he ought to be payed more (not so much due to his chemistry degree, but due to the fact that he was a man and the rest of us were women - he needed more money to fund his lifestyle, he argued, while we, as women, could live on less). He didn't realize he was fighting a large company structure where job titles and job roles are clearly defined, and they aren't based on what your 4 year degree happened to be in. He whined about it constantly and finally quit. Ironically, out of all of us, he generated less work, because he thought 1) they ought to be paying me more so I'll work less, and 2) I'm so much better at this job I can do in 4 hours what it takes this foolish women 8 hours to do. Can't say anyone was sad to see him leave.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 27, 2012 10:14:43 GMT -5
Yes, DHs coworker. He wanted to be hired as Asst Director of Pharmacy as his first real job. He also keeps trying to called Clinical Pharmacist so he doesn't have to do the "tech stuff" like checking prescriptions for errors before they go out to the patients. It hasn't seen to hurt him other than his coworkers think he's a douchebag. I am a little surprised he is permitted to get away with calling himself a clinical pharmacist, given that most clinical pharmacists have additional residency training and are board certified. As for Steve, a title is just a title without the relevant work experience to back it up. And I think he'll be surprised when he next looks for a job (if he's not already) that they will judge him on his qualifications and experience not whatever title he had. He did the residency but doesn't have the certification. He can call himself a clinical pharmacist all he wants, but hte hospital is not creating a job for him, and he still has to check the prescriptions before they go on the floor. He does everything humanly possible to avoid that job, but he still has to do it.
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Happy prose
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Post by Happy prose on Jun 27, 2012 16:17:34 GMT -5
I work for a government agency. We get yearly percentage raises in our contract. We have some people who think they should get a promotion because they're here x amount of years. Not that they're good at what they do or work hard, just I'm here long. These same people aren't worth half their salary!
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 27, 2012 19:34:45 GMT -5
I work for a government agency. We get yearly percentage raises in our contract. We have some people who think they should get a promotion because they're here x amount of years. Not that they're good at what they do or work hard, just I'm here long. These same people aren't worth half their salary! What people think they are worth and why can be mind boggling. I agree that just staying at a company/agency should not result in a promotion. We actually had one guy who took a 40k a year job (admin type position) and got mad because we didn't give him a raise to 50k. His rational was that he made 50k at his last job. Never mind the fact that he was a supervisor in his last position and had a completely different set of tasks, or the fact that he never once tried to expand his job duties at the 40k a year job. It would be like me taking a job as a line cook and then telling a restaurant owner they should pay me the amount I made as a teacher. It can go the other way too though. It seems like in this economy a lot of people are saying that they are expected to walk on water for nothing.
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