Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 17:59:37 GMT -5
Huh? I think I've missed part of the story... It's a wonderful story but it's not mine to tell
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 18:02:46 GMT -5
You got it Miss T. ;D And nothing offensive in your post. For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! I totally get that for some (maybe many) people gender is a deal breaker and don't judge that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 18:04:13 GMT -5
For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! Firebird raeoflyte I forget, were you guys married when DH switched, or dating?
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 26, 2012 18:12:10 GMT -5
You got it Miss T. ;D And nothing offensive in your post. For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! I totally get that for some (maybe many) people gender is a deal breaker and don't judge that. LMAO!!! Now that is funny!! But I'm still confused at who is what and who is doing what with whom. Somebody PM me!
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 26, 2012 18:13:50 GMT -5
For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! Firebird raeoflyte I forget, were you guys married when DH switched, or dating? Oh! Is that what she meant? I thought they both found out they were gay or bi and they were just having a big party! I was jealous!
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quince
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Post by quince on Jun 26, 2012 18:54:47 GMT -5
Eh, I'd be OK if my SO went to some other person's hotel room, and he'd be OK with me going to someone's hotel room. We know each other, though, and we socialize with both genders, and aren't the going-out types. More the sit-in and chat types, so hotel rooms are perfectly fine places to hang out. (Also cheap, so sitting at a restaurant or bar is well out) A hotel room with wireless internet would be awesome, because we could sit with our friends and ignore them for the internet!
I LIVED with my ex for a year- six months of which, my SO was in a different state. Not a problem.
That said, we've discussed cheating, and currently he is informed that I'm not sure how I'd react. I reacted quite badly to a different "betrayal", so the assumption is that he'd have at least a couple months of hell to go through if he cheated. A whole lot of my reaction would depend on if he told me before we had sex again, or after.
I think whether or not a woman could drive a man to cheat depends on how you define it. A person could definitely do things that make their partner resentful, insecure, less concerned about their reaction, even desire to hurt them. Someone could definitely make it so that a partner will GET more out of an infidelity than they think they would lose.
I think the same with "teasing" I don't think light teasing can be counted as driving someone to suicide, but constant low-level physical abuse (not only for sexual relationships!), social isolation, vandalism, sabotaging relationships, persistent mockery, sabotaging academic or professional achievement, theft...a campaign of "bullying", essentially ...Oh, yes, I think that could make a person feel trapped and that they have only one way out. I think that can be called driving someone to suicide. Like chasing someone toward the edge of a cliff- even if you don't give them the final push, you're not innocent of the result when they go over.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 26, 2012 19:26:47 GMT -5
For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! Firebird raeoflyte I forget, were you guys married when DH switched, or dating? Oh! Is that what she meant? I thought they both found out they were gay or bi and they were just having a big party! I was jealous! LMAO!! Cher is so pretty
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 26, 2012 19:32:36 GMT -5
You got it Miss T. ;D And nothing offensive in your post. For me the gender thing wasn't a deal breaker either. So while it might not have been my first choice.... whatevs. Not doing the damn dishes--that's a freaking deal breaker! I totally get that for some (maybe many) people gender is a deal breaker and don't judge that. LMAO on the dishes! I never say never because I don't honeslty know how I would react...but that's awesome that you were able to work it out... now to make POM happy, there was still a party, right???
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simser
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Post by simser on Jun 26, 2012 20:12:49 GMT -5
Not to resurrect this horse but... (I know it was page 2 and it's page 7 now) People cheat because they choose too. Nobody can "drive" another person to cheat. That is just the pathetic excuse of a person not taking personal responsibility. Everyone has a choice. If the marriage isn't working, that person can choose to get out or not. Actually, at least for abuse victims, one of the most likely and effective ways for them to get out and stay of the relationship is to cheat. Often they have had their self-esteem beaten down so badly, they can't imagine someone else liking them. By cheating, they see that the abuser is wrong which gives them the strength to get out. Not all, even most victims, stay with the person they cheated on, though. In that way, I would say the abuser drove the victim to cheat and I would not judge the victim. I have mentioned before on these boards that I cheated on my exhusband right before I divorced him. I have also mentioned that my exhusband was abusive. THIS. I am lucky that I lived apart from my ex long enough (we weren't living together for 2 years before this happened) to see the writing on the wall for our marriage. I was lucky to find a guy that was smart enough to stop the cheating quick enough, but was needy enough to start cheating (I know that doesn't make sense). And I was lucky enough to get into counseling quickly and often. But I do think that I cheated mostly as a way to get out of the marriage. And it was extremely comforting to know that I wasn't the scum of the earth to every male. Oh and for Phoenix who mentioned questioning being the other person in a cheating relationship? My guy knew I was married, knew my husband, and was screwed up himself. He never realized it (except to stop sleeping with me after a week) but he was extremely codependent. He needed a girl, and I needed a guy at that point. Our relationship happened again once after I was divorced and it just didn't work. He found a girl who was on the fast track for marriage, and got engaged quickly. Good for him. Now I just seem to be attracted to guys who are attached. I think this is a good move- I won't be attracted to them after I find out they're attached, but at least I'm picking people who are more stable. I'll see how it plays out in the next couple of years.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 20:47:00 GMT -5
Firebird raeoflyte I forget, were you guys married when DH switched, or dating? Aww! Right back atcha! ;D We had been *married* for 6 years when he transitioned. I started to suspect that maybe he wasn't just really butch around the 4 1/2 year mark, and later our bff transitioned so I had a lot of time to adjust before anything became real.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jun 26, 2012 21:57:17 GMT -5
The last four guys I had joked with and really liked/respected, etc, I found out were married right before I "had the balls" to ask them out. They didn't try to act single at all, they were just fun to be around. With one, he got married right about the time I convinced myself I should ask him out--I was just about to ask when I saw the new wedding ring. Two others were guys at work (before my strict "no coworker" rule) and at some point they started talking about their wives (oops--no clue--a lot of guys in these jobs don't wear wedding rings because of the risk), I didn't know them that well, just enough to know they seemed like really good guys. Another guy was more of a passing in the store, stopping to chat for a minute or two after running into each other for years, then I noticed the ring. It's nice to know I'm attracted to good guys, but it really sucks that I keep finding the married ones!! (and, again, not one of these guys ever acted inappropriate or tried to get me to date/sleep with them)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 6:42:27 GMT -5
raeoflyte, I love your story.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 27, 2012 7:51:13 GMT -5
Thanks Angel!
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 27, 2012 10:09:10 GMT -5
raeoflyte, I love your story. I find it fascinating but that's because I'm boring. ;D And nosy. *-*-*- I have a friend who has an open marriage. I'm good friends with both her and her DH. He's a nice guy. And she loves him/he loves her. But there's no sex in the marriage and in a lot of ways they're best friends/roommates. He can't/won't provide her with what she needs. Neither of them want to divorce so this is their solution. I mind my own business because I'm not the one living this. *-*-*- I don't think DH would cheat on me. In the midst of my depression last year, I did wonder if he was but it was more ideal speculation. He didn't have the time or energy to cheat. But we were so distant at the time.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 27, 2012 10:21:29 GMT -5
It is possible DH cheated on me. I don't know, and never will, because I don't want to. Now, to not bust Firebird's bubble view of me and DH of me completely, I will also mention that this happened while we were dating, long before we were ever engaged. If DH cheated, it was right before we broke up. We were both unhappy in our own lives and it had transitioned into us both being miserable in the relationship. He started hanging out more and more with another female friend who, on many levels, understood him in ways I never will. We broke up and he instantly was in a relationship with her. My best guess is that he didn't sleep with her before we broke up, but broke up with me because he realized that he was going to end up sleeping with her. But like I said, I don't know, and I haven't ever asked. DH and I took some time off from being in a relationship, and in the end, came back to each other, making a conscious choice to be together and to work on what had gone wrong in our relationship previously. We got engaged about a year later.
DH continued to be friends with this other woman (as did I- I'd actually known her longer than DH had). He continued to see her- sometimes with me around and sometimes not, and she continued to call him, even after we moved out of state. I trusted him because I knew he'd made the choice to be with me, but it didn't stop me from being jealous. So I made one request- that he tell me when he was going to see her, or when she called. He never had to tell me what they did when they were together or what they talked about, I just wanted to know it happened. I didn't want to be surprised by it if it came up in conversation later, and I didn't want to feel like he was hiding it from me. DH had no problem with that and it worked really, really well.
Fast forward to this last year of school. There's a young woman in DH's program at school who is totally DH's type. (She's young enough/DH is old enough that she doesn't even pass the half your age +7 rule). Now, I didn't meet her until close to the end of the school year, but it took me about 5 minutes of talking to her to realize she was totally DH's type. (Per him, it took him months for that to ever occur to him.) The group they were in had a day where they were supposed to get together and work on their project. About 2 hours after DH had told me he expected to be home, I called to find out what was going on. I joked that I wanted to make sure he hadn't run away with the girl. (She wasn't even there that day.) He later told her about the joke, and her response was to feel hurt that my first impression of her was as a homewrecker (which makes me feel bad, because that wasn't my impression of her), but also to mention that if DH and I happened to be in an open/poly relationship (not uncommon here in Seattle or even among our friends), she would totally be interested. After that, DH asked me if I was uncomfortable with him working with her one on one or being her friend. I'm not, because I do trust him. He has, without me asking, fallen into the habit from the old ex. He tells me when he's going to be meeting up with the girl. When I ask how his day was, he tells me if he talked to her, or even had an email conversation with her. He doesn't have to do this, but it goes back to the fact that life is easier if neither of us feels like the other is trying to hide something.
And it does go both ways. In September, I am going to a financial bloggers conference. DH is not going. I am sharing a room with an online female friend (who I actually first met over on the WIR boards), but some of the other bloggers I am most looking forward to meeting and hanging out with are men. We will all be in the same hotel. We will almost all be there without spouses. Is anything going to happen? No. But my life is easier if DH knows about this in advance. Again- the point is not trying to hide anything from each other. Neither of us wants to do something that would give the other cause to stop trusting completely.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 11:00:14 GMT -5
Now, to not bust Firebird's bubble view of me and DH of me completely, I will also mention that this happened while we were dating, long before we were ever engaged. If DH cheated, it was right before we broke up. We were both unhappy in our own lives and it had transitioned into us both being miserable in the relationship. If you're happy now and you don't mind not knowing for sure, that's all that matters to Firebird. I think it's totally reasonable to ask your partner to tell you when they hang out with a friend of the gender to which they're attracted, or talk to them on the phone, ESPECIALLY if you have a history with that person. I'm still on very friendly terms with one of my exes, and I tell DH when we talk - heck, the last time I talked to him, I was in my living room and DH was sitting right there the whole time. Mind you, we only dated for a couple of months in between 4+ years of being good buddies, so in my mind he's less "ex" than "good friend" but still. We will all be in the same hotel. We will almost all be there without spouses. Is anything going to happen? No. But my life is easier if DH knows about this in advance. Again- the point is not trying to hide anything from each other. Neither of us wants to do something that would give the other cause to stop trusting completely. Like I said, I think if you're deliberately trying to bait or annoy your partner - especially if you know they struggle with jealousy issues - that's really, really bad. simser, I think I said this the last time you brought it up but thank you for sharing your perspective from "the other side." I think it's instructive, and also I appreciate it when people share controversial parts of their own history. Takes guts.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 27, 2012 11:48:25 GMT -5
DH constantly says "It is HIM I don't trust, not you" and I find that to be a bunch of crap. Unless the guy is going to rape me nothing would happen without my consent.
I would not use that to get DH to agree to let me go meet some guy at a hotel room like the scenario WWBG posted. That shouldn't pass the sniff test and if DH told me he did not want me to go, I would not go. There is no reason why I could not meet said person at a more public place.
The "I don't trust them" crap is an issue when it comes to things like when I wait tables. For a short period of time both DH and I worked for my great uncle. When we were riding home he was all pissed at me and I wanted to know why. "Because you were flirting". WTF?
I told him when you wait tables part of being a good one is making that table feel like you are their only table and I engage in banter, particularly with customers I know. If he can't tell the difference between "come hither" flirting and trying to get a better tip then he needs therapy.
I've also known one of the guys that works there for sevearl years, DH would get pissy anytime we talked together. The kid is the same age as my brother!
I told him you need to knock it off, I should be able to work around the opposite sex withotu you getting your panties in a twist. THAT is when I told him either you trust me or you don't. Iin that situation it is warranted because I couldn't do my job without him breathing down my neck.
I understand that Dh got cheated on the past, but I told him he needs to get the fuck over it because in 8 years I haven't done anything to even remotely cause him to think I am cheating. I am not going to continously prove myself loyal because he can't get over something that happened back in high school.
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yummy2tummy
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Post by yummy2tummy on Jun 27, 2012 11:59:23 GMT -5
I have a friend who appears to be quite insecure in her marriage. She is always talking about how her husband could never do better than her (and he is a good one - he would do just fine) and stuff like that. Then, when she went to hire a nanny, she would only hire an ugly nanny. She didn't think he needed the temptation. I'm not exactly sure what is going on in their marriage - but I know that her Dad stepped out on her Mom, so I'm thinking this is just an left-over fear from her childhood. I don't really give in to any fears about my husband cheating - I'll cross that bridge when/if I get there. Not thinking about it makes it so I treat him trust and respect, which I think makes him less likely to want to go elsewhere. My friend, on the other hand, structures her life around it and she hen-pecks her husband. I'm wondering if one day he'll just get sick of it and throw in the towel. Can a woman drive a man to cheat? Yes, but doing exactly what your friend is doing, being paranoid and insecure. She needs to get help for it and learn to let it all go..
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 27, 2012 12:06:31 GMT -5
DH constantly says "It is HIM I don't trust, not you" and I find that to be a bunch of crap. Unless the guy is going to rape me nothing would happen without my consent. I would not use that to get DH to agree to let me go meet some guy at a hotel room like the scenario WWBG posted. That shouldn't pass the sniff test and if DH told me he did not want me to go, I would not go. There is no reason why I could not meet said person at a more public place. The "I don't trust them" crap is an issue when it comes to things like when I wait tables. For a short period of time both DH and I worked for my great uncle. When we were riding home he was all pissed at me and I wanted to know why. "Because you were flirting". WTF? I told him when you wait tables part of being a good one is making that table feel like you are their only table and I engage in banter, particularly with customers I know. If he can't tell the difference between "come hither" flirting and trying to get a better tip then he needs therapy. I've also known one of the guys that works there for sevearl years, DH would get pissy anytime we talked together. The kid is the same age as my brother! I told him you need to knock it off, I should be able to work around the opposite sex withotu you getting your panties in a twist. THAT is when I told him either you trust me or you don't. Iin that situation it is warranted because I couldn't do my job without him breathing down my neck. I understand that Dh got cheated on the past, but I told him he needs to get the fuck over it because in 8 years I haven't done anything to even remotely cause him to think I am cheating. I am not going to continously prove myself loyal because he can't get over something that happened back in high school. I'm a very outgoing person...when we go out to a bar, my husband is usually on one side of the room with his friends and I'm on the other side...by the end of the night, I have made a new set of friends (for the night!lol) because I literally talk to everyone around me (male or female)...I'm not a flirt...I'm friendly!lol
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 27, 2012 12:56:40 GMT -5
...:::" I'm told some guys are just very very good at getting women into bed, . So SF claiming all women are frigid isn't true?
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jun 27, 2012 17:48:03 GMT -5
I'm going to play devil's advocate here - not because I condone cheating but because I can sympathize with people in troubled marriages. It's easy to say - "if you're that unhappy just leave," but there are many important factors to also consider. For one, staying together for the kids is often important. Secondly, divorces can be financially devestating, especially for men. Changing careers or moving to a new city are both way easier than getting a divorce.
In French culture, temporary affairs aren't considered that huge a deal. I wonder if the French aren't a lot more practical than Americans. Are they morally bankrupt, or are we delusional thinking that one person can meet all the emotional and physical needs for a lifetime?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 17:54:33 GMT -5
In French culture, temporary affairs aren't considered that huge a deal. I wonder if the French aren't a lot more practical than Americans. Are they morally bankrupt, or are we delusional thinking that one person can meet all the emotional and physical needs for a lifetime?
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If both partners are cool with affairs and the extras don't mind their partners being married to someone else (which moves it from adultery to polyamory), then fine. Whatever floats your boat. I might even agree that for many couples, polyamory IS more natural than monogamy.
But also, I think it's a cop-out to wait until you're deeply unhappy in your marriage, cheat, THEN say "oh people aren't meant to mate for life anyway, it's unnatural." That smacks of rationalization to me.
Basically, my policy is to own my actions. I should never have to hide anything I'm doing because I'm afraid of the consequences if I get caught. If I wasn't happy in my relationship with DH, I'd consider cheating a very cowardly way out of the situation. I have other options - up to and including TELLING him what I want, and how close I am to leaving our marriage to get it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 27, 2012 17:55:15 GMT -5
Morally bankrupt as well as cowardly.
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suesinfl
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Post by suesinfl on Jun 27, 2012 18:28:39 GMT -5
As another poster stated, if you get accused of it enough, you just might be tempted if the marriage is heading down the drain anyway. I use to feel this way with the ex calling me 3 the store on my way home. I got the fifth degree when I got home. Um, I have the kids and groceries so I think I was where I said I was. There were a few times when I thought I should. If I'm going to be accused of something like that I might as well do it. But I'm not that type of person so it never would have happened. And of course, it would have been really hard to do when I had a kid with me at all times when I wasn't at work. That was just one of the many problems we had that lead to the divorce. Did he cheat on me? I don't know and really don't want to know. He had plenty of opportunity since he wasn't around much in the evenings and only worked 4 days a week. I'm of the belief that you can't start a new relationship without ending the old one.
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jun 27, 2012 18:32:25 GMT -5
In French culture, temporary affairs aren't considered that huge a deal. I wonder if the French aren't a lot more practical than Americans. Are they morally bankrupt, or are we delusional thinking that one person can meet all the emotional and physical needs for a lifetime? I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If both partners are cool with affairs and the extras don't mind their partners being married to someone else (which moves it from adultery to polyamory), then fine. Whatever floats your boat. I might even agree that for many couples, polyamory IS more natural than monogamy. But also, I think it's a cop-out to wait until you're deeply unhappy in your marriage, cheat, THEN say "oh people aren't meant to mate for life anyway, it's unnatural." That smacks of rationalization to me. Basically, my policy is to own my actions. I should never have to hide anything I'm doing because I'm afraid of the consequences if I get caught. If I wasn't happy in my relationship with DH, I'd consider cheating a very cowardly way out of the situation. I have other options - up to and including TELLING him what I want, and how close I am to leaving our marriage to get it. I'm not trying to give cheaters a free pass - I'm just trying to be sympathetic because I feel "there but for the grace of God go I." I've seen several friends essentially get cut off from their wives when it comes to sex, and they were treated like a-holes when they tried to explain how important that is for them. I think in modern society it's much easier said than done for husbands to make sexual demands, because that's considered sexist and degrading.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 18:51:05 GMT -5
I think in modern society it's much easier said than done for husbands to make sexual demands, because that's considered sexist and degrading.
I think a lot of men equate having sex to intimacy. Women equate other affectionate and verbal gestures to create intimacy which makes sex more desirable. I don't want to essentially take on the role as my husband's mother and then be ready to hop into bed with him when he wants sex. That is a MAJOR turn off...
This kind of comment always makes me laugh... not that it's all that funny... it's just that I know so many women who aren't getting enough sex in their relationships. WAY more than the reverse, and yet "I need more sex" is still considered a "man problem." Women are ALWAYS assumed to be the ones holding back.
Anyway. I have friends who have cheated on their partners. I understand wanting to be sympathetic. But to me, that doesn't translate into "I'm going to help you rationalize this." Yes, there are situations where the person feels like there's no other way out. And that sucks.
However, my usual reaction to people doing destructive things is not "let's make them feel better about these destructive actions." My usual reaction is more along the lines of "let's figure out what's causing so many people to be destructive in this particular way and deal with THAT, rather than treating the symptom."
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 18:57:03 GMT -5
And here again, this is why it's helpful to draw a distinction between Cheating Partner's "sin" (cheating) and Cheated On Partner's sins (lack of affection, distance, abuse, whatever).
If Cheating Partner is my friend, naturally I'm going to be more inclined to side with him/her and look for things that COP did wrong. So I can help CP rationalize the cheating. But if you think about it, doing that is a real disservice to your friend the CP. If they do something serious like cheat and everywhere they turn people are patting them on the back and looking for reasons why COP had it coming, they're never going to have to deal with the reality of their actions.
LIKEWISE. If COP is my friend, naturally I'm going to focus on the wrong actions of CP. Which completely glosses over anything COP may have done wrong in the relationship. They get to feel like the martyr because they were cheated on - well, good for them. But it's rarely so straightforward.
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jun 27, 2012 19:03:33 GMT -5
@ Miss M
Of course I'm only getting one side of the story - but I didn't see any inclinations where these guys suddenly became jerks. I can say for certain that I saw them being good fathers and involved in the childrearing/taking care of the house.
In my own situation, my wife's interest plummeted after our first kid. I figured that was going to happen but by plummet I'd figure we'd cut back to once a week or so - not every quarter. Date night didn't really help, and neither did making dinner, buying flowers, etc. It took a lot of work to keep things from the brink. I recognize I'm saying this as a man - but it would be nice if women met us halfway and sometimes took one for the team even when they weren't feeling 100 percent. After all, that's what good hubbies do when its 90 degrees out and the grass needs to get cut, or it's below freezing and the walk needs to get shoveled out.
@ Firebird
I've had a lot of friends complain to me about wanting to cheat, but I only know of one guy who came close by carrying on a virtual relationship. I told him I'd still be his friend but that he'd be making a big mistake if he went forward. Some of these friends are still married, some are not. And I do agree with you wholeheartedly that it's not just a man's problem.
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Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
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Post by Firebird on Jun 27, 2012 19:52:52 GMT -5
I think couples lose sight of each other as husband and wife and lovers and fall into the role of mom and dad.
All the 50's sitcom parents slept in their own twin beds! People get confused ;D
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