raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 9:48:14 GMT -5
What always baffled me about cheaters is not the cheater, but the person who cheats with a married person. Shouldn't people have more respect for themselves than to be the mistress of a married man? I would NEVER in a million years have relations with a married woman. My companionship is worth more than, I'm worth more than that. But it is the married person that made the commitment, not the person they are cheating with. I place 100% of the blame on the person who broke their vows. At this point I don't consider cheating to be a deal breaker for our relationship. And I'll add that I knew from day 1 that dh had cheated on every person he had been with when we started dating. We didn't take any standard vows. We did affirm that we never meant to intentially hurt the other. I think that is what it would come down to for me. Was he doing this to hurt me, or was he searching for something that he couldn't find in himself or in our relationship. If it were the latter, and it was something that I felt like our relationship needed then we could probably work on it. If it happened a 2nd time, I think it would come down to the same question. If he is continually searching for something not in our relationship, then its probably to get out of the relationship. DH knows how I feel, and that our relationship has a much better chance of lasting if he comes to me first about wanting a physical relationship with someone else and seeing if we can work it out upfront. He knows there are no guarantees about how I'll react if I find out after the fact. At this point its all theoretical so who knows what I'll do if it comes up irl.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 26, 2012 9:54:38 GMT -5
Oh fun... something to feed my drama needs until the car accident thread gets updated. OK, I only have a little time before a meeting so I'll just jump right in.
...:::"Nobody can "drive" another person to cheat. That is just the pathetic excuse of a person not taking personal responsibility.":::...
Ugh... Of COURSE another person CAN "drive" someone to cheat. It may not happen in every case... some people are just serial cheaters. But I hate the way that the one who actually cheats has the entire blame placed on his/her shoulders, when the reality is that it often takes TWO people to have an unhappy relationship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 10:01:11 GMT -5
Oh fun... something to feed my drama needs until the car accident thread gets updated. OK, I only have a little time before a meeting so I'll just jump right in. ...:::"Nobody can "drive" another person to cheat. That is just the pathetic excuse of a person not taking personal responsibility.":::... Ugh... Of COURSE another person CAN "drive" someone to cheat. It may not happen in every case... some people are just serial cheaters. But I hate the way that the one who actually cheats has the entire blame placed on his/her shoulders, when the reality is that it often takes TWO people to have an unhappy relationship. but unless I'm physically forcing my husband's penis into another woman's vagina, he is 100% responsible for his actions. I'm not driving him to do anything.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 26, 2012 10:12:06 GMT -5
To answer the OP's original question, I don't think your spouse can "force" you to cheat. I think their behavior can make it more appealing, but the ultimate decision rests with the individual.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 26, 2012 10:14:10 GMT -5
"But it is the married person that made the commitment, not the person they are cheating with. I place 100% of the blame on the person who broke their vows."
Of course more "blame" rests with the married person, I was just saying I don't understand how people can have such low self esteem and weakness. It is a forign concept to me.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 10:14:37 GMT -5
Ugh... Of COURSE another person CAN "drive" someone to cheat. It may not happen in every case... some people are just serial cheaters. But I hate the way that the one who actually cheats has the entire blame placed on his/her shoulders, when the reality is that it often takes TWO people to have an unhappy relationship. Both people are responsible for a failing relationship, but each person individually is responsible for their own actions.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 26, 2012 10:17:18 GMT -5
"But it is the married person that made the commitment, not the person they are cheating with. I place 100% of the blame on the person who broke their vows." Of course more "blame" rests with the married person, I was just saying I don't understand how people can have such low self esteem and weakness. It is a forign concept to me. Gotcha...I thought you were blaming the person who wasn't married.
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Labcat
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Post by Labcat on Jun 26, 2012 10:20:07 GMT -5
At this point I don't consider cheating to be a deal breaker for our relationship. And I'll add that I knew from day 1 that dh had cheated on every person he had been with when we started dating. We didn't take any standard vows. We did affirm that we never meant to intentially hurt the other. I think that is what it would come down to for me. Was he doing this to hurt me, or was he searching for something that he couldn't find in himself or in our relationship. If it were the latter, and it was something that I felt like our relationship needed then we could probably work on it. If it happened a 2nd time, I think it would come down to the same question. If he is continually searching for something not in our relationship, then its probably to get out of the relationship. DH knows how I feel, and that our relationship has a much better chance of lasting if he comes to me first about wanting a physical relationship with someone else and seeing if we can work it out upfront. He knows there are no guarantees about how I'll react if I find out after the fact. At this point its all theoretical so who knows what I'll do if it comes up irl. I'm making a note of how you worded that in case I ever get into another discussion about this. That describes my relationship with DH almost exactly.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 26, 2012 10:28:19 GMT -5
I worked with a woman who was a serial cheater. She was an extremely attractive woman who used sex to advance her career (she never slept with any low ranking co-workers, only with co-workers who were higher up than she was, people who would be in the position to help her career).
She was in two different marriages when I knew her, and she cheated through both of them, cheating with men who were also married.
I had a hard time understanding her personality. Obviously she cheated in order to advance her career (and it worked) but I think there wan another element - I think she cheated because there was an element of danger to it, and she liked the thrill.
I remember seeing her come to work one Monday all exicted and talkative, almost hyper. I figured out later she and her current BF (the facility manager) had gotten caught that weekend by one of their spouses, and both their spouses had left them.
I always thought that was a strange reaction on her part. The facility manager came to work all sullen and deflated, but this woman was energized and happy. Maybe cheating was like a drug to her.
I just eat chocolate...
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 26, 2012 11:09:09 GMT -5
...:::"Both people are responsible for a failing relationship, but each person individually is responsible for their own actions.":::...
This is exactly why it gets lost. I never said that cheating was "right", or that its a "good choice" vs. leaving. I am simply stating that I loathe the way the other party's involvement is downplayed or completely exonerated just because somebody else cheated. But then again, society has a nasty habit of putting all fault on the "reactor" and exonerating the "instigator".
I know I won't change anybody's mind. I'm just stating my feelings.
...:::"I would be getting their names mixed up.":::...
Isn't that why you are supposed to use pet names? Honey, baby, beautiful... so you don't accidentally mix them up?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 11:10:24 GMT -5
Or you only date people with one particular name. If they're all "Mary" you can't get in trouble! ;D
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 26, 2012 11:25:30 GMT -5
Or you only date people with one particular name. If they're all "Mary" you can't get in trouble! ;D That's a rookie move...you just never use their names...if you call everyone "sweetie" or "baby" you can't get into trouble
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 12:13:39 GMT -5
If your SO does cheat and you stay. Work on the issues. Gain the trust back. Everyone is happy again, then they cheat again. Would it be a deal breaker at that point? You know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Hell to the no! Just because I could get past it once doesn't mean I'm okay with it - and doing it a second time after we went through all the pain of working through it the first time would prove my partner didn't give a shit about me or respect me one bit.
When a person accepts abuse it makes the abuse continue.
Those of you who say cheating IS a dealbreaker - is it because you literally equate it with physical abuse? I don't think they are equivalent in any way.
If you hit your spouse (or verbally/sexually abuse them in any way) on an ongoing basis, you are seriously fucked in the head. You have real problems that extend beyond the relationship.
Cheating, I see as more of a lapse in judgment in most cases. Of course, it can also be a vicious (albeit passive aggressive) attack on a partner's self esteem with malicious intent. But more often, I feel like it's a lousy choice made under lousy circumstances. There are other breeches of trust I'd find much more debilitating (like the birth control issue) than cheating, frankly.
But I hate the way that the one who actually cheats has the entire blame placed on his/her shoulders, when the reality is that it often takes TWO people to have an unhappy relationship.
Because cheating isn't the solution to anything. I don't accept that you can drive someone to cheat. Drive someone to be miserable, sure, and you should take responsibility for that. But take responsibility for THEIR mistake? No, never.
That's basically akin to saying you're responsible for someone committing suicide because you tease them. Are you responsible for teasing them, and causing damage? Absolutely. Responsible for the suicide? Nope.
I am simply stating that I loathe the way the other party's involvement is downplayed or completely exonerated just because somebody else cheated.
For me, at least, that's not how it works at all. I already said that if DH were to cheat on me, I WOULD be inclined to examine my role in how things got bad between us. That doesn't equate to taking responsibility for what he did though.
They're two very separate issues. Issue #1: Cheated-on partner did X, Y and Z causing cheating partner to feel bad. Issue #2: Cheating partner cheated. Both issues would need to be resolved (independent of each other) before I could get past an affair.
But then again, society has a nasty habit of putting all fault on the "reactor" and exonerating the "instigator".
Untrue. There are huge issues in society where the victim is usually blamed entirely, while the actual perpetrator gets a complete pass.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 26, 2012 12:48:25 GMT -5
OK... Once the "r" word enters the discussion, I have to switch roles from participant to moderator. That topic is best not discussed here. If the thread goes down that direction, I have to lock it.
If you'd consider removing that particular analogy, purely on the basis of the side-track you know it will cause, that would be great.
As to the rest of your response: I can see in a logical sense the argument that A can make B miserable, but B alone chooses cheating as a way to deal with that misery. I'm still going to say "tomato tomahhhtoe" to that, because in my mind, it still sounds like pinning all the blame on the second party and giving the first a free pass. Again, I know many here will never adopt that mindset.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jun 26, 2012 12:49:16 GMT -5
When a person accepts abuse it makes the abuse continue.
Cheating, I see as more of a lapse in judgment in most cases. Of course, it can also be a vicious (albeit passive aggressive) attack on a partner's self esteem with malicious intent. But more often, I feel like it's a lousy choice made under lousy circumstances.
Except when the cheating goes on for a period of time, not just a one night stand. I knew a woman, a doctor, who was in a 20 year affair. She had a child by the man and raised him on her own and still continued the affair. 20 years! Ay Caromba!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 12:51:27 GMT -5
WWBG, the "instigator" hasn't done anything that would be seen as an immediate betrayal to the other. Why wouldn't the "actor" first try to salvage the relationship or leave instead of cheating?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 12:53:55 GMT -5
OK... Once the "r" word enters the discussion, I have to switch roles from participant to moderator. That topic is best not discussed here. If the thread goes down that direction, I have to lock it.
I'm not intending to restart the discussion, but I still think it's a valid point when you assert that society has a "nasty habit" of blaming the reactor rather than the instigator. There's at least one huge chunk of society that does the exact opposite.
However, I've amended my response.
I'm still going to say "tomato tomahhhtoe" to that, because in my mind, it still sounds like pinning all the blame on the second party and giving the first a free pass. Again, I know many here will never adopt that mindset.
See, in order to get past an affair of any kind, my partner would HAVE to acknowledge that distinction. It is real, and it should not be underplayed.
There is a very, very big difference between "I made you miserable and I am responsible for doing that and I'm sorry" and "I forced you to cheat and I am responsible for doing that and I'm sorry." BIG fucking difference.
It does circle back to the battered partner thing, in a way. You *might*, as the abused party, be responsible for being an irritating nag or whatever your abusive partner accuses you of being. And at some point, you should deal with that. BUT, are you responsible for your partner choosing to hit you? No way.
For me, it comes down to this: I'm happy to take responsibility for MY actions. I won't take responsibility for yours.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 12:54:18 GMT -5
Except when the cheating goes on for a period of time, not just a one night stand. I knew a woman, a doctor, who was in a 20 year affair. She had a child by the man and raised him on her own and still continued the affair. 20 years! Ay Caromba!
"In most cases."
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 26, 2012 13:06:21 GMT -5
Lots of people have been pointing out how ugly jealously is, and they are right.
But.......don't you want your spouse to be a little jealous? A guy I was in love with in college came to town (friends for 15 years, never dated). We met up for dinner. DH was out of town. After dinner I went home and waited for DH to call, but he never did. Finally, I called him to ask why he didn't check up on me! He said "I trust you."
Don't get me wrong. I love the trust, and he should trust me, I have never cheated on anyone, but, come on, isn't a little jealousy healthy?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 13:11:38 GMT -5
Lots of people have been pointing out how ugly jealously is, and they are right. But.......don't you want your spouse to be a little jealous? A guy I was in love with in college came to town (friends for 15 years, never dated). We met up for dinner. DH was out of town. After dinner I went home and waited for DH to call, but he never did. Finally, I called him to ask why he didn't check up on me! He said "I trust you." Don't get me wrong. I love the trust, and he should trust me, I have never cheated on anyone, but, come on, isn't a little jealousy healthy? Why? Either you trust your mate or you dont And if not, why the hell are you in the relationship I dont think jealousy is healthy in any relationship at any point
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 13:14:22 GMT -5
isn't a little jealousy healthy? I can agree that it may be normal, but not that its healthy. Thankfully when I was young I realized that I could be attracted to a person and even have a strong chemistry with them without expecting or *wanting* dh to be like them. That made me so much more comfortable with myself and killed whatever jealousy I may have had. I believe that jealousy in this context comes from either insecurity in yourself or its a projection of your own actions or desires on your spouse. So for me, it definitely isn't healthy and would require a lot of introspection if it cropped up for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 13:14:23 GMT -5
I get what susan is trying to say (welcome to the boards, btw! ) -- you want your spouse to want you. I think jealousy is an immature way of showing it, though.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 26, 2012 13:18:17 GMT -5
I get what susan is trying to say (welcome to the boards, btw! ) -- you want your spouse to want you. I think jealousy is an immature way of showing it, though. It drives DH nuts that I am not jealous, he thinks it means I don't care. It's not true, to me if I am jealous that means I have a reason to distrust him and I don't. Only time I saw red is when an ex of his called up when she divorced. He told her he was involved but she kept calling and telling him how much she missed him and how much she regretted breaking up with him. She was looking for a rebound. I saw red because someone was sniffing around and not respecting my tuff. I never once for a second believed DH would cheat on me, but I don't appreciate someone else coming after my man.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 26, 2012 13:24:44 GMT -5
Lots of people have been pointing out how ugly jealously is, and they are right. But.......don't you want your spouse to be a little jealous? A guy I was in love with in college came to town (friends for 15 years, never dated). We met up for dinner. DH was out of town. After dinner I went home and waited for DH to call, but he never did. Finally, I called him to ask why he didn't check up on me! He said "I trust you." Don't get me wrong. I love the trust, and he should trust me, I have never cheated on anyone, but, come on, isn't a little jealousy healthy? I think be who want their spouse to be jealous misunderstand the nature of desire and jealousy. The people who are into jealousy think jealousy correlates directly to how desireable someone is and if you were jealous of your partner getting attention from someone else by definition you cared or desired them more than someone who isn't jealous. It is bunk. The proof should all be in how your partner treats you and makes you feel. That's it IMO. Jealous is wanting something and not having it. In fact I would say that is the definition of envy with the difference is in one case you think your desire for what you want might be satisfied and in the other you think it won't be.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 26, 2012 13:33:05 GMT -5
I get what susan is trying to say (welcome to the boards, btw! ) -- you want your spouse to want you. I think jealousy is an immature way of showing it, though.I don't want anyone that needs me to be chained to his side to prove I belong to him.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 26, 2012 13:34:50 GMT -5
DH gets jealous. It's part of why we can't work together. I asked him once if he planned on peeing on my leg to establish his territory and assert dominance. I don't feel flattered at all, it drives me absolutely insane.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 26, 2012 14:30:17 GMT -5
I get what susan is trying to say (welcome to the boards, btw! ) -- you want your spouse to want you. I think jealousy is an immature way of showing it, though. I dont' think jealousy has anything to do with how much your spouse wants you...all it says to me is my spouse doesn't trust me and that would piss me off.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 26, 2012 14:53:02 GMT -5
WWBG, I can understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree.
Should someone who teases another person who then commits suicide be held accountable for the suicide? Should someone who abuses a child, then that child grows up and commits a crime be held accountable for that child's crime? Should we give child molestors a free passe because they don't know any better because they were molested themselves as children? Should someone who had a rough childhood not be held accountable for their crimes because "awww, they had it rough growing up."
Extreme examples sure, but they illistrate the point. People can drive others to be miserable and unhappy, and inflict great pain others. But if you choose to react in a negative way, then you are the only one responsible.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 26, 2012 14:55:10 GMT -5
I might be willing to acknowledge the difference between the two if the other party also admits his/her fault in the situation. As I said, logically I understand the difference between "you made me miserable" vs. "I dealt with that misery in the wrong way.
But when the attitude of the other party is blatantly "you took it too far, and that therefore absolves me of my wrongdoing", I say heck with it.
Of course if someone is already cheating, and cheating routinely, I think he/she is long past caring whether he/she is "right" or "wrong".
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 26, 2012 14:55:20 GMT -5
Awesome post Phoenix!
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