How much is your public school worth?

[shanendoah]

Ignoring the other issues in this case www.ohio.com/news/113828954.html (which are major, but not relevant to this thread), a public school in Copley Township (Akron), Ohio, values its tuition at $7,625 per year. ($30,500 for 2 kids for 2 years).
Ohio State University charges charges $6,102/year for its regional campuses, $6,300/year for its ATI campus, and $9,420/year for its main campus. undergrad.osu.edu/money-matters/tuition-and-fees.html
Is your public school (elementary, middle, or high) worth more or close to what a university would charge?

[Deleted]

Apparently a felony:

Mother Jailed for Sending Kids to a Good School
Posted by Madeline Holler on January 25th, 2011 at 4:42 pm


Convicted of a felony for wanting her kids to get a better education.

An Ohio mother of two who was working toward her teaching degree has been convicted of a felony, sentenced to 10 days in jail (suspended from 5 years), fined thousands of dollars and placed on three years of probation. Why? Because she sent her kids to school in the wrong district.

Yes, she did this knowingly. Yes, it’s against the rules.

But a felony? Jail? Well, she was poor, black and on welfare so now it makes sense.

Kelley Williams-Bolar was sentenced by Judge Patricia Cosgrove today and she will begin serving her sentence immediately. A jury deliberated for 7 hours and, in the end, found her guilty of two counts of tampering with court records after registering her two girls as living with her father when they actually lived with her.

Bolar’s father, Edward L. Williams, was charged with fourth-degree felony of grand theft for defrauding his local school system of educational services for Bolar-Williams’ two girls.

Felonies, people. Felonies!

Williams-Bolar is a resident in a housing project in Akron, Ohio. It’s not news when I tell you that the schools for kids who live in the housing projects were overcrowded, underfunded and performed below the nearby schools serving middle-class and mostly white students. Ohio isn’t even close to being a top education state.

Other parents have done this, which of course doesn’t make it right. The same district, Copley-Fairlawn, handled several dozen other residency cases. But Williams-Bolar was the only one to face an indictment — the only one to be sentenced to jail, according to Ohio.com.

Where I live, it’s often families in good enough schools getting into even better ones. Typically, when caught, students are shipped back to their neighborhood schools, maybe the parents are fined. But jail? Felonies? That was Judge Cosgrove’s special form of justice so that Williams-Bolar would be an example to other parents who might try this. Meanwhile, the fancy school she was ripping off concedes that really? Overall? It’s rare.

Let’s look at Williams-Bolar’s case through the lens of frustrated schools trying to get parents to be more involved in their kids’ education. Some want to grade parents. Others send them to jail for not caring enough. Turns out, if you care too much and do what plenty of rich-enough white people have done, you’re good. It’s understandable. Gotta do what’s best for the kids. But when a poor single mother does it — one who can’t afford legal good enough legal representation to get the charges dropped — there’s hell to pay. Or, well, the difference in what it cost to educate her kids at the nice schools vs. what it would have cost in their home district and PS: there’s a big difference. (And that’s still not fair!)

This story’s getting life all over Facebook and plenty of people are crying foul at charges of racism. Here’s what Dr. Boyce Watkins has to say on the Boyce Blog:

This case is a textbook example of everything that remains racially wrong with America’s educational, economic and criminal justice systems. Let’s start from the top: Had Ms. Williams-Bolar been white, she likely would never have been prosecuted for this crime in the first place (I’d love for them to show me a white woman in that area who’s gone to jail for the same crime). She also is statistically not as likely to be living in a housing project with the need to break an unjust law in order to create a better life for her daughters. Being black is also correlated with the fact that Williams-Bolar likely didn’t have the resources to hire the kinds of attorneys who could get her out of this mess (since the average black family’s wealth is roughly 1/10 that of white families). Finally, economic inequality is impactful here because that’s the reason that Williams-Bolar’s school district likely has fewer resources than the school she chose for her kids. In other words, black people have been historically robbed of our economic opportunities, leading to a two-tiered reality that we are then imprisoned for attempting to alleviate. That, my friends, is American Racism 101.

So now the better district no longer has to teach the kids from the struggling district. But everyone has to pay for Williams-Bolar court expenses, the fact that she won’t be able to pull herself into the middle class. Her kids, who had parental support and a motivated mother (and grandfather), who knows what will happen to them.

I hope some benevolent legal minds will get together and convince Williams-Bolar to fight her conviction and clear her name of felony charges. What happened to her is outrageous; it’s an embarrassment for anyone who believes in fair education.

The system is broken for millions of kids. Now it’s worse for two more.

[gs11rmb]

I agree almost 99% with your post, particularly that she would not have been prosecuted if she were white and more affluent. However, she did commit a felony. Do I feel sorry for her - absolutely. We are starting to think about this issue because our neighborhood school is not particularly good. I would love to get her into one that is still close to us and has an excellent reputation, however, the only way to do so is lie about where she actually lives and I am not going to do that.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...I think we should privatize education, so that people can pay for what/how much they want...


<<< Is your public school (elementary, middle, or high) worth more or close to what a university would charge? >>>

...yeah, it was worth it...

[Deleted]

And so those that would rather pay zero... can pay zero... and just not educate their kids? (I'll play )

[973beachbum]

Jan 25, 2011 20:45:16 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Ignoring the other issues in this case www.ohio.com/news/113828954.html (which are major, but not relevant to this thread), a public school in Copley Township (Akron), Ohio, values its tuition at $7,625 per year. ($30,500 for 2 kids for 2 years).
Ohio State University charges charges $6,102/year for its regional campuses, $6,300/year for its ATI campus, and $9,420/year for its main campus. undergrad.osu.edu/money-matters/tuition-and-fees.html
Is your public school (elementary, middle, or high) worth more or close to what a university would charge?

But Ohio Univ charges $6000 a year for two about 12 week semesters of 5 courses each. Which comes out to about 15 credit hours each for the two 12 week semesters. So that would be about 180 hours a semester or 360 hours a year.
So someone correct me if my math is wrong that is $16.66 an hour.

At $7625 a year for elementary school that works out to about 180 days a year at about 7 hours a day equals 1260 hours, or $6.05 an hour.

How is $6.05 an hour more than $16.66?

[zibazinski]

What's funny is that my old school system had plenty of students that lived elsewhere but came to our school under false pretenses. They weren't even nice children so why did my Princiapl put up with it? Because the hassle wasn't worth it. If her children had been nice and not caused any trouble, they likely would have gotten away with it. Because even bad children get away with it.

[Deleted]

"The same district, Copley-Fairlawn, handled several dozen other residency cases. But Williams-Bolar was the only one to face an indictment — the only one to be sentenced to jail, "

I think this is an important thing zib...

I had a student once who moved out of district and their 'parent' brought him and siblings in wanting to 'finish out the year'... but were made to stop when the admin found out... now i KNOW they had gone to the board to approve the same arrangements for other kids... who were not poor (or special ed... which could play a role)...
(I way parent cause it was grandma... i had all the siblings in that family at one time or another, and a cousin... they were always living with some relative or other... while mom was in and out of jail..)

[The J]

in the end, found her guilty of two counts of tampering with court records after registering her two girls as living with her father when they actually lived with her

There's definitely more to this story -- she was convicted of tampering with COURT records, not school records. Of course, that wouldn't support the author's contention that this was only about race and money, so it's conveniently being left out.

[shanendoah]

anne: Trust me, I'm with you on this. The school district hired a private investigator to follow this woman. I'm not really certain how either of them "defrauded" the school district, especially the grandfather as he lived in the district and paid his taxes there, and we don't charge people different taxes based on whether or not they have kids in public school. Plus, all state and federal funding is based on the enrollment rolls, which these girls were on, so the school district received funding for them.
BUT, as this is YM (not politics or social issues) I wanted to concentrate on what they assumed their school was worth. (Mind you, they didn't assign a price to the education at the school the girls "should" have gone to. And its the different that the family should have been charged. But doing that would have called more attention to the disparity in schools.)

zib: Throughout middle and highschool, I always knew at least one person who was fudging an address (using a grandparent or non-custodial parent) in order to be in a better school. Where I live now, I know of families who rent studio apartments in the district they want their kids to be in and use that as the address.

beachbum: Semesters are not 12 weeks long, quarters are, and there are three quarters in a standard school year. In semester based systems, semesters are 18 weeks long. So we're looking at 36 weeks a year at 15 credit hours a week. Which takes us to 540 hours a year, which takes us to $11.30/hour. Which yes, is still more than $6.05/hr.
But, students aren't only on campus for class. Unlike most public schools, they aren't being bussed in right before classes start and sent home right after they end. They are using school resources for way more than just 15 hours a week. (I would argue that when I was a full-time undergrad, I spent at least 40-50 hours on campus a week, using iniversity resources.) So I would argue that since 15 credit hours is considered full time, it should be equivalent to the 7 hours days at a public school. So perhaps the more fair way to look at this is on a per week basis.
And now we're back at 36 weeks a year for college and 36 weeks a year for public schools. And so, Ohio State is charging $169.5 per week of education, and this supposedly public school values their time at $211.80/week.

[shanendoah]

J: They're called COURT records because they are legal documents attesting to where the student lives. She did not lie to a court of law, or tamper with existing documents. She simply listed her father's address instead of her's when filling out enrollment forms for her children.

I want to note that the first articles I saw on this were all written with the racism bias and had inflammatory headlines. I did additional research to make sure the story was valid, and the one I linked to (written before the sentencing) was a straight factual account of the case. I do think there's a lot of racism/classism involved here, but I did my best to leave out the commentary and stick to the facts.

[zibazinski]

I actually don't have an issue with it as long as the children are well-behaved and do their job, which is to learn. I have an issue when they are the other kind. There's enough already in public schools. A good school is good for a reason, because the students are there to learn and the parents support this process.

[shanendoah]

zib: I found no accounts of how the children behaved in school, but considering the mom worked as a teacher's aid (making 13.55/hour, raising two kids, I'm amazed she wasn't actually living with her father) and was going to school to get her teaching degree, I feel its pretty safe to assume she not only wanted a better education for her daughters, but was actively supporting it.

[973beachbum]

Semesters are not 12 weeks long, quarters are, and there are three quarters in a standard school year. In semester based systems, semesters are 18 weeks long. So we're looking at 36 weeks a year at 15 credit hours a week. Which takes us to 540 hours a year, which takes us to $11.30/hour. Which yes, is still more than $6.05/hr.

DH teaches at a local college. He just started the spring semester this week and it will run through the beginning of May. The will also have at least one week off and some scattered days off in between. The fall semester is the 2nd week of Sept till the 3rd week of Dec, with of course scattered days off. So it is 12 weeks.

They also normally have a third semester a year in the summer for students who what an extra couple of classes. This is the same schedule that is at almost all colleges and universities. I have heard of a few which have trimesters but they freely admit theirs is just 3 semesters set up for co-op/intern students like engineers. Some schools have started winter sessions where they do a class in 3 weeks. It is normally something like 3 hours a day/4days week/3weeks. They are becoming pretty popular.

I have never heard of an 18 week long semester. Is this something in your particular area?

I will say that the extra time you spoke about I consider to be part of the R&B and Fees than tuition part of the equation. Most schools now charge close to $1K a month for R&B and almost as much in Fees as they do in tuition. I would say that those amounts were what is going to the school for the extra things like the library and labs not the actual tuition.

[cronewitch]

I know college cost much more than tuition charged in our state colleges. They are taxpayer subsided and have land grants where they grow timber to fund the schools. The amount the student pays has nothing to do with the actual cost like public school children not paying tuition at all.

Education the poor children at public expense is worth much more than it cost. Without a free public elementary school education many children wouldn't read, write or do any math. Even an 8th grade education provides us with a minimum education for every nurses aide and janitor or even welfare parents so they can teach their children to start to read and add before they start public school. Let every child get a free education so they have hope and opportunity for a good future. Even if they have parents in jail or on drugs or the kids are in foster care they need to get a minimum amount of education. We still have a huge drop out rate but that is older kids not the elementary kids. If they decide later to get educated they at least can read a book to learn something or get a GED.

If it cost 10K a year to get a kid 12 years of public school that is 120K to make them able to function in society. If they are working instead of stealing it was worth it to me as a taxpayer.

We fund education by the district so my tax dollars are for the local kids. If kids are shipped in from other areas the taxpayers in that area got a great break on taxes at my expense. When taxpayers vote to raise taxes to support local schools it is to improve the property values and give good schools to local children.

I got 12 years of public school while raised by parents who couldn't have paid for it. I have made enough wages to more than pay enough taxes to repay the school system. I wouldn't be worth more than 10K a year without my early education and now earn more than 55K so that is 45K a year thanks to the taxpayers. I pay school tax of 3K a year on my property but since I finished public school in 1966 I and any landlords have more than repaid the taxpayers for the education. I want that for every child, if you want more for your child go ahead and buy them a better education.

If we funded schools nationally instead of locally it wouldn't matter which district paid for which kids but you couldn't vote to let your local kids do better.

[zibazinski]

Wonder why she wasn't living in the school's district? What's also funny is that you usually get the "perk" of having your child/children attend the school where you work. We have a teacher that lives in another county but her children attended this counties system because she works here.

[shanendoah]

beachbum: The University I went to started in August and went through the 3rd week of Dec. We started again mid-Jan and went through the end of May. Yes there was some time off in there - holidays, 1 week at spring break, but the Spring sememster was longer than the winter semester by 1 week.
DH just started going to a school on the quarter system (all the WA state universities are on it. It means they get to collect money 3 times a year instead of twice.) The summer quarter exists, but its not part of standard tuition, you do have to pay extra for it. I did just double check, and I made an error, DH"s quarters run 11 weeks, not 12, so that does put him at 33 for the year.
Even using the 33 weeks a year, that's $184/week, still cheaper than $211.80.
The $6,102 at Ohio State regional campuses includes ALL fees. There is a seperate charge for room and board, that is $8,300/year regardless in or out of state status. I didn't include those because as a student who never lived on campus, I never paid room and board to the U, but I paid full tuition and fees, and I spent 40-50 hours a week on campus, in the library or student union mostly. (I was a history major, so while I paid lab fees, I rarely had cause to be in a lab.)
I will also note that at my state university, back in the mid-90s, I had a 4 year, $10k scholarship that was considered a full ride, so I paid $2,500/year. I didn't want to use the old data or out of state data, that's why I looked at what Ohio State charges now.
And again, we aren't looking at Ohio State's main campus for these numbers. We're looking at their less expensive regional campuses. To use the main campus, at 33 weeks/year, you're paying $285/week. But I have to assume that that's because there are more amenities and probably more options of majors at the Columbus campus, not becuase the quality of education is less.

My point is that this is a public elementary/middle/high school (I found no mention of the age of the girls or the level of school attended) that they rate as costing $7,625 per year in tuition and fees. Which is more than their state university charges an regional campuses. If find that ridiculous.

As a comparison, in my city, private school tuition can starts at $3,300/year (it can go up to $23,000/yr, which also seems beyong ridiculous to me). [a href="http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/schoolguide/compare.php?compare_ids=8028_8530_8029_1422_8031_8032_8189_8859_8041_8042_8043_8045_8102_8299_8048_8674_8050_8054_8051_8052_8929_8761_8084_8085_8500_8057_8455_8059_8628_8523_8061_8062_8063_8086_8064_8065_8067_8069_8070_8073_8075_8076_8037_8573_8399_8056_8828_8751&compare_scope=all&search=criteria&grade_low=7&grade_high=12&school_city=Seattle&school_zip=ZIP%20code&pl_code[]=P"]http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/schoolguide/compare.php?compare_ids=8028_8530_8029_1422_8031_8032_8189_8859_8041_8042_8043_8045_8102_8299_8048_8674_8050_8054_8051_8052_8929_8761_8084_8085_8500_8057_8455_8059_8628_8523_8061_8062_8063_8086_8064_8065_8067_8069_8070_8073_8075_8076_8037_8573_8399_8056_8828_8751&compare_scope=all&search=criteria&grade_low=7&grade_high=12&school_city=Seattle&school_zip=ZIP%20code&pl_code[]=P[/a]

I just think that this school is over inflating the worth of its education. If nothing else, there is no way the district is paying out of pocket, $7,625/student/year. Even if that is the total spent per student, most of that will be in state and federal subsidies which are based on enrollment records, which these girls were on, so the school was getting money for them.

[Plain Old Petunia]

I think this story is outrageous. The real crime here is that a decent education can not be had in the public school which these girls should be attending (due to their actual address). The mother should not be charged with a damn thing.

[shanendoah]

cronewitch: I agree that overall, an education is priceless. I'm just having a hard time with this school having put a price for "defrauding" the district on their education. And, that they didn't subtract out what the "worth" of the school they would have attended was. Since the grandfather DID live in that district, and was paying taxes toward that district, I have a hard time seeing how he was defrauding anyone.
Again, these were not the only children attending this school without living in the area. Their mother and grandfather were the only ones charged with felony grand theft for it. If these pepole defrauded the school of that much money, why didn't the others?

[TrixAre4Kids]

They used to bus black kids in to my well-to-do school district.

[shanendoah]

petunia: I agree. I don't think poor people deserve a worse public education than rich/middle class people.

And since cronewitch mentioned funding schools nationally (or even state wide, but I'd prefer nationally) I'd be all for it. (I do not have children.) Maybe that way, certain school districts couldn't get away with refusing to teach evolution, or editing American History to just the parts they like. But that is neither here nor there in this conversation.

[shanendoah]

trix: The Supreme Court nixxed most of those programs with two decisions handed down in 2007, one to Seattle schools and one to Tennessee (I think) schools.

[boosmom]

Again, these were not the only children attending this school without living in the area.

That would be the biggest issue for me. But maybe they could only get the hard evidence for a case to prosecute this woman. I have no doubt race played an important role though.

Our elementary school is highly ranked and there are tons of folks who apply for geographic exceptions. I heard that there were few students who got in due to GEs because the school was full with in-district applicants. The school has also been very strict about obtaining documentation as to residency in district - 2 utility bills with the parents' names and address. Since it is a lottery system for those who do get in due to GEs, then getting your child into the school under false pretenses as the child living in-district would be very upsetting to all those patiently waiting to get their children in via GEs.

It would be such an upheaval if you did away with district zoning. I wouldn't want a county lottery and end up with my kid going to a school 25 miles away from where we live. There is a reason why the priority is for kids who reside in the area. You can rent or own.

I also agree with Elizabeth Warren that education is a huge reason why families stretch themselves to the limit, so that they can live in good school districts. It's a problem that is so complex, there is no simple solution to it.

[Deleted]

A local school district that's well known for it's academics (it has a highly educated/well paid tax base) allows out of district students to attend for around $6500 a year.

I agree with shenandoah - they singled out this woman for a reason. It's terrible. I'm interested to see if some conservative group takers her up as a cause - it's a perfect argument for school vouchers and allowing people to enroll in other schools. She's a single mom on welfare, in public housing, trying to get her children a decent education. I can't imagine how she'll ever pay the fines - and will the felony conviction prevent her from working in schools?

[Deleted]

Change.org has launched a petition to have her pardoned

criminaljustice.change.org/petitions/view/calling_for_reduction_on_appeal_of_ms_kelly_williams-bolars_unfair_sentencing_for_fraud_and_theft

[Urban Chicago]

What's funny is that my old school system had plenty of students that lived elsewhere but came to our school under false pretenses. They weren't even nice children so why did my Princiapl put up with it? Because the hassle wasn't worth it. If her children had been nice and not caused any trouble, they likely would have gotten away with it. Because even bad children get away with it.

Mine did too, but it's a different world now. It used to be just a matter of fudging your address on the enrollment forms. Now, the district wants to see proof of address and has been known to check up on "suspicious" transfers and such. Ever see that Simpsons episode where they want to send the kids to "Waverly Hills"? They had an address enforcer and this really isn't too far off the mark in "good" school districts.

[shanendoah]

anne: She's appealing, and I would rather donate money to help her hire good lawyers that would help her win the appeal than for her to be pardoned. The reason for this is because of the power of precedent in our legal system.

boos mom: Seattle has district wide zoning. You list your top three schools and you're guaranteed admission to one of them. Its not a lottery to get in, they have "tie breakers" for when there are too many applicants. The first one is if you have siblings in the school, then you're in. I know there's a whole long list of others, but I don't know what they are. Up until the 2007 Supreme Court decision, racial diversity was the last tie breaker. If, all other things being equal, the school district would promote racial diversity. Location was not a tie breaker at the time (it might be now). This was because that neighborhoods tend to be homogenous and the school district thought it provided a better education for all children to be in a more diverse environment, where they would meet and learn to work with people different from them.
The school district pays for all bussing/transportation, so that's not on the parents' shoulders.
Then a new school was built in a rich white neighborhood. A couple girls in that neighborhood did not get in the school (It was their first choice. They did get in their second choice.) Because some black kids from another neighborhood did get in, the father of the white girls sued the district for racial disrimination. The Supreme Court ended up agreeing with him. (And on a case where the decision was handed down the same day, also decided that a Tennessee school district's plan to increase racial diversity - the kind that had been required in the early years after Brown v Board of Ed - was also discriminatory and illegal.)

[Deleted]

Does she have anything set up for donations?

[boosmom]

shanendoah - Thanks, it's always interesting to see how it is in other states. Bussing/transportation would still be an issue though, as to time of pick-up and drop-off. Since we work, we use the after-school program on-site at the school. If our child was further away, would they transport our child to the nearby school after school, or would we have to pick up our child from the farther school when done with work? And is there a bus stop the kids are dropped at in the mornings, or is it curbside pick up? Supervision becomes an issue as well for the morning pick up.

Plus, I think most of the top schools we have here would be picked as the top 3 choices for many folks. The schools may be on the way into work or parents will arrange for it somehow. So I can definitely see problems happening where you wouldn't be guaranteed to get into one of your 3 choices beause there are too many families all picking the same schools. It'd be interesting if I could see the stats on all the GEs submitted broken down by schools for our state.

[shanendoah]

anne: I haven't seen anything to that effect. I expect with all the press, the ACLU or someone like the late Johnny Cochran will take on the case pro-bono.

boo's mom: I grew up in places where you were zoned for where you were zoned. I did get an exception my senior year because my parents moved during the summer. However, our district guaranteed variances for upperclassmen who were just trying to remain at the same school they had already been attending.
We did have other types of variances, but if you were on them, you were barred from being on competetive teams for a year and some other rules.
In Seattle, I don't have kids, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with the system. But I followed the Supreme Court case and we looked in to moving one of my (at the time) highschool age cousins in with us a couple years ago, so I did research at the time.