Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 13:57:43 GMT -5
Another reason not to tell people. Why tell people something that you did, when you didn't do it to hurt their feelings & when you can't change the past?
When you have people who care about going to your wedding (for whatever reason), eloping will hurt their feelings. Period. There's no getting around that. If the wedding is just a piece of paper to you, then that should outweigh how other people feel about it, but that doesn't change the fact that they might be hurt.
I'm an only child, so attending my wedding was pretty important to my parents. Had eloping been important to me, I probably would have invited them so they could see their only child get married. But if I didn't invite them for some reason, I still wouldn't have pretended not to be married just to give them the pleasure of seeing me "get married." It wouldn't have been real.
Bottom line, be a grown up and own your choices. That's how I feel anyway.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 23, 2012 13:59:54 GMT -5
Like it or not, people treat weddings differently than they treat receptions and anniversary parties. So to call one thing something else, IMO, is deceptive no matter why you're doing it. I guess that's why we disagree on this. I treat all of those things about the same way. I'm almost certainly in the minority on that view though.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 23, 2012 14:02:11 GMT -5
Is it really eloping if you invite people?.... I thought that was a "Destination Wedding"
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:03:35 GMT -5
"It's not a pretend wedding. The purpose of the big wedding ceremony, other than getting a bunch of free crap from your friends and family, is to give them a chance to celebrate your relationship with you."
This celebration happens anytime you have an anniversary party, but it's not happening under the pretense of telling people they're attending something they aren't. A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again. I do agree that the purpose of a wedding is to do precisely what you say. But then why is all of the secrecy necessary...tell people you're having a party to let them celebrate your relationship with you. The real issue is that a lot of people may not want to come to that party, so to get them to show, you pretend it's something it's not.
Have a wedding where you're getting married, or have a party to celebrate the fact you already got married and in that party go through the pomp and circumstance a wedding normally has...just be honest with people about what they're attending.
"Legally our marriage happened after the ceremony when the minister signed our marriage certificate, and the only people present were Loop, myself, our two witnesses, and said minister (who also happened to be her dad). None of our other wedding guests witnessed it. We tricked everyone twice!!! Take that suckas. "
I don't know how it is there, but here, you're legally married when you exchange the vows. You have to fill out the certificate acknowledging that you did, but it's illegal to go through the ceremony, exchange the specified vows, and then not sign your marriage license. If you don't sign it the officiant (sp?) is legally required to report to the state that you are indeed married, even though you haven't filled out the form. So for legal purposes, here, you are married when you have both completed your marriage vows. The rest is simply record-keeping.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:04:36 GMT -5
Like it or not, people treat weddings differently than they treat receptions and anniversary parties. So to call one thing something else, IMO, is deceptive no matter why you're doing it. I guess that's why we disagree on this. I treat all of those things about the same way. I'm almost certainly in the minority on that view though. You treat them the same way, I do too largely...but your choice to treat them the same isn't an excuse for being dishonest with others in order to trick them into using them interchangeably.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 14:04:50 GMT -5
We're actually thinking destination wedding, that's sure to shore up the guest list in no time.
Unless it's really far away, don't count on it. We had a destination wedding but since so many people had to travel to our wedding regardless of where it was, it knocked approximately five guests off the eventual attendee list.
Serious question for those of you who keep mentioning the fake or deceptive thing; do you attend weddings to witness a bride and groom (which traditionally meant they were both virgins) get married, or are you there to celebrate the relationship of the couple in question?
Both. Regardless of the "traditional" meaning of marriage, I still consider legal marriage an enormous and important step in a couple's relationship. Being there when they get married is important to me. Of course I am also celebrating their relationship, and a successful milestone in it, but I don't give my friends anniversary or "moving in together" presents. I give wedding presents because THAT particular step is very important to me.
That being said, it doesn't really matter how I feel about it. Marriage means different things to different people, I get that. So if a couple with whom I'm close chooses to elope beforehand, I wouldn't say a word about that. I WOULD, however, have a problem attending their "wedding" a year later.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 23, 2012 14:05:00 GMT -5
I just can't see how this sceanrio is going to work out the way they hope, especially since they can't seem to keep their mouths shut.
As a parent in this situation I would be pretty pissed off since I want them to wait. I don't know how big a deal the waiting is in this scenario but I know I'd be more pissed off/hurt they felt they needed to lie to me and held their hands out for my checkbook with a straight face.
If you are adult enough to get married, IMO you should be adukt enough to tell your parents you don't want to wait and the wedding is going to happen on your timetable. If that means paying for a wedding out of your own pocket that's what you do.
I mean do they think if this blows wide open their parents will thank them for not hurting their feelings? What that guy said is such BS, you aren't doing it to spare your parents feelings, you are doing it so you can get a check from them.
If you wanted, in this scenario, to respect your parents feelings you would not have run off and eloped.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 23, 2012 14:06:23 GMT -5
A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again. I do agree that the purpose of a wedding is to do precisely what you say. But then why is all of the secrecy necessary...tell people you're having a party to let them celebrate your relationship with you. The real issue is that a lot of people may not want to come to that party, so to get them to show, you pretend it's something it's not. OK, that makes sense. You all have my permission to be mad about the fake wedding ceremony, which I know was the only reason for this thread.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 14:07:04 GMT -5
I always viewed it as the latter, so I don't really care that they've been shacking up in the mean time, already eloped, or whatnot. That doesn't make their relationship, that they wish to celebrate with family and friends, any less valid. To me anyway.
So let me ask YOU, Dark, would you make the same amount of effort for a "we're moving in together" party or a "we've been together for eight years" party or a "we just had a child together" party for your friends as you would make for a wedding?
Those are all "celebrating relationship" milestones, yet you never hear about people having parties and asking friends to come celebrate for those occasions in lieu of asking them to come celebrate their weddings. Perhaps because they know most people would take those parties less seriously than a wedding.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 23, 2012 14:07:36 GMT -5
Yes. You can't have it both ways. (There's nothing wrong with eloping/secretly marrying and then later having a big RECEPTION, but to bill the latter celebration as a wedding is pretty dishonest). I feel the same way about people who legally CAN marry, choose not to, and still refer to each other as "husband" and "wife". I have 2 friends who do this, I know it's petty, but it bugs me. Why on earth would this bug you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 14:08:41 GMT -5
So buy the present now... I really wish more people would get married without feeling i need to be there to see it...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 14:08:57 GMT -5
This celebration happens anytime you have an anniversary party, but it's not happening under the pretense of telling people they're attending something they aren't. A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again.
Precisely. If you're inviting people to one thing, don't bill it as another thing. This is actually a better way to put it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:09:18 GMT -5
"So let me ask YOU, Dark, would you make the same amount of effort for a "we're moving in together" party or a "we've been together for eight years" party or a "we just had a child together" party for your friends as you would make for a wedding? "
I know I'm not Dark, but I'd rather attend all of those parties over a wedding where I have to get the sappy "isn't love wonderful" messages.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 23, 2012 14:09:39 GMT -5
Serious question for those of you who keep mentioning the fake or deceptive thing; do you attend weddings to witness a bride and groom (which traditionally meant they were both virgins) get married, or are you there to celebrate the relationship of the couple in question? Mostly to witness the actual ceremony. I'm not big on parties & generally only put up with the reception because it is important to the bride & groom. I dislike the whole idea of having a reception at a later date or having multiple receptions. That is why if I announced we were married, then I never would have done any of it. Then my parents would have never seen me walk down the aisle or had a reception for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 14:10:19 GMT -5
I feel the same way about people who legally CAN marry, choose not to, and still refer to each other as "husband" and "wife". I have 2 friends who do this, I know it's petty, but it bugs me.
Why on earth would this bug you? Because if it's "just a piece of paper" why not get married legally? It takes far more paperwork to give your partner the same rights as a married couple.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 23, 2012 14:10:25 GMT -5
So let me ask YOU, Dark, would you make the same amount of effort for a "we're moving in together" party or a "we've been together for eight years" party or a "we just had a child together" party for your friends as you would make for a wedding? Well, I give way better presents at we just had a child together parties. I also personally think anniversary parties are more "special" than wedding parties. Any two morons can get hitched. Making a relationship last twenty years is a lot more impressive.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 14:10:47 GMT -5
I don't know how it is there, but here, you're legally married when you exchange the vows. You have to fill out the certificate acknowledging that you did, but it's illegal to go through the ceremony, exchange the specified vows, and then not sign your marriage license. If you don't sign it the officiant (sp?) is legally required to report to the state that you are indeed married, even though you haven't filled out the form. So for legal purposes, here, you are married when you have both completed your marriage vows. The rest is simply record-keeping.
That's quite interesting. I assume this rule doesn't apply to gay couples?
I never really thought about whether you could say the vows but not sign the paper. DH and I had to sign the paper the day before we took the vows so maybe it's the same here.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 23, 2012 14:11:16 GMT -5
Because it's dishonest?
If you're not married because marriage means you'll lose your benefits, or your alimony, or whatever - that's fine, but don't hold yourself out as husband and wife.
FWIW, I'm all in favor of a revamped system where civil unions are divorced from religious marriage, but I think that's a while off, at least in the US.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 14:11:19 GMT -5
I also personally think anniversary parties are more "special" than wedding parties. Any two morons can get hitched. Making a relationship last twenty years is a lot more impressive. I agree with that. I think that renewing vows is a bit weird but I'd love to have a blowout on my 25th and 50th anniversaries.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 23, 2012 14:11:57 GMT -5
BFF and her hubby didn't have to sign anything. However the Preacher, Best Man, and I (MOH) did.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:12:34 GMT -5
"That's quite interesting. I assume this rule doesn't apply to gay couples? "
I assume it applies where gay couples can get married.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 14:13:20 GMT -5
How about if they get divorced, or annuled around February... "I also personally think anniversary parties are more "special" than wedding parties. Any two morons can get hitched. Making a relationship last twenty years is a lot more impressive. " "DH and I had to sign the paper the day before we took the vows so maybe it's the same here. " ... before all the guests arrived ?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 23, 2012 14:13:28 GMT -5
This celebration happens anytime you have an anniversary party, but it's not happening under the pretense of telling people they're attending something they aren't. A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again.Precisely. If you're inviting people to one thing, don't bill it as another thing. This is actually a better way to put it. How is it billing it as something else? It is a religious wedding. It might lack the signing of the legal form, but all the other aspects remain. It is an announcement of your commitment to God & the world & having a public ceremony for it. Your attitude is precisely why we didn't tell people. I wanted a wedding & if people knew we were already legally married, then no one would have gave a shit about my wedding & would have thought I was weird or just aiming to get presents.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 23, 2012 14:13:48 GMT -5
This celebration happens anytime you have an anniversary party, but it's not happening under the pretense of telling people they're attending something they aren't. A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again.Precisely. If you're inviting people to one thing, don't bill it as another thing. This is actually a better way to put it. How would you feel if it was a "religious commitment ceremony" for a couple that was religious? (instead of one that was dishonest with their family)
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:14:50 GMT -5
BFF and her hubby didn't have to sign anything. However the Preacher, Best Man, and I (MOH) did. We actually signed our during the ceremony, but apparently weren't legally married until the reception because the person marrying us forgot to utter some magic words to seal the deal. I think it was "I now pronounce you man and wife", or something like that.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 23, 2012 14:15:03 GMT -5
This celebration happens anytime you have an anniversary party, but it's not happening under the pretense of telling people they're attending something they aren't. A wedding is a ceremony whereby 2 people get married, if you're already married, you aren't getting married again.Precisely. If you're inviting people to one thing, don't bill it as another thing. This is actually a better way to put it. How is it billing it as something else? It is a religious wedding. It might lack the signing of the legal form, but all the other aspects remain. It is an announcement of your commitment to God & the world & having a public ceremony for it. Your attitude is precisely why we didn't tell people. I wanted a wedding & if people knew we were already legally married, then no one would have gave a shit about my wedding & would have thought I was weird or just aiming to get presents. K4U.... I was trying unsucessfully to state this...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 23, 2012 14:16:04 GMT -5
You can say the vows and not sign the paper. Our minister got called to duty the day before our wedding and had no clue if he would have time to perform our ceremony before he had to move out. There was no time to get another minister.
So the back-up plan was to have my great uncle "marry" us in the church and then we would go down to the JOP to get our license signed.
The way he explained it to us was we can have the wedding without becoming legally married. You usually tie the two together because in Nebraska it needs to be a JOP or a minister who signs your license.
Since we might not have had a minister we had no one to sign the license, but anyone could perform our church ceremony.
We would have had to make a pit stop at the JOP to make it legal.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 23, 2012 14:18:35 GMT -5
I know I'm not Dark, but I'd rather attend all of those parties over a wedding where I have to get the sappy "isn't love wonderful" messages. Such a cynic!
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 23, 2012 14:19:05 GMT -5
"Your attitude is precisely why we didn't tell people. I wanted a wedding & if people knew we were already legally married, then no one would have gave a shit about my wedding & would have thought I was weird or just aiming to get presents. "
I don't get this logic though, you are basically saying that if you were honest with people, they wouldn't have done what you wanted them to do, therefore it's ok to lie to them? If people knew you were married they wouldn't have given a shit...so to make sure they cared you didn't tell them. I still think the people who really cared about you would have wanted to come, and those who didn't probably didn't care if you got married or not.
"It might lack the signing of the legal form, but all the other aspects remain. It is an announcement of your commitment to God & the world & having a public ceremony for it."
I think this is the argument I just don't understand. If you really cared that much about a commitment to God, why sneak off and do your real wedding without him? And I'm sure the next thing is "God is everywhere", in which case he was already at your wedding. I don't think "God" has anything to do with a church wedding, given the traditionally held belief that God is everywhere.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 23, 2012 14:19:41 GMT -5
Because it's dishonest? If you're not married because marriage means you'll lose your benefits, or your alimony, or whatever - that's fine, but don't hold yourself out as husband and wife. FWIW, I'm all in favor of a revamped system where civil unions are divorced from religious marriage, but I think that's a while off, at least in the US. There's nothing dishonest about it. In a common-law marriage, it's perfectly acceptable to call your partner a husband or wife.
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