Christianity and income inequality

[Deleted]

I was struck by a radio commentator this evening who spoke about the Occupy events and how they demonstrated "love" for mankind and how important non-violent resistance is. This is a message that Jesus spoke loud and proud. Jesus was all about how the rich could act in such a way as to improve the poor. It it possible that a decline in religious feeling has led to an increase in income inequality?

I remember reading about St. Paul's letters to the rich in his community. He exhorted them to give up riches they could afford (meat that was used for pagan sacrifice) in order to improve the spiritual lives of the poor among them.

Many of the bible excerpts that are taken for romantic sayings are in truth the exhortation to love one's neighbor and religious community.

Do you think the decline in this perspective has led to income inequality?

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[djAdvocate]

yet another person unfamiliar with the Gospel of Supply Side Jesus!

[mmhmm]

Nov 13, 2011 5:30:54 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

There is a very strong anti-usury message that runs through Judaism and Christian tradition and it is directly applicable to the things that have caused people to camp out in the streets in protest.

"If you take your neighbor's cloak as security for a loan, you must return it before sunset. " Exodus 22:26

Deuternomy 24:26 specifically prohibits the taking of millstones as a pledge for a loan under the basis that the miller needs the stones to earn his living.

The bible quite plainly warns that bankers are not to rip the clothes from the body nor the means of employment from the worker. What does that say with 1 in 10 out of work due to the credit crisis?

The anti-usury message runs strongly through all the big three religious teachings, toughtimes. There have been efforts to establish methods to loan money without charging interest. Look up the JAK (established in Sweden) for one of them. Also, Islamic banks do not charge interest. Since Islamic law prevents usury, they operate more on a profit and loss system. I'm not familiar with all the details, but I'm sure there is information available that explains how this is done. In fact, I probably should do some research myself, since I've always wondered how they operated in today's profit-driven world.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Nov 13, 2011 3:22:45 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

And, Paul ALSO said that "if a man does not work, he should not eat".

And Jesus who is God, said,Thou shalt not steal. Not, thou shalt not steal except by majority vote with the government as your agent in an armed robbery.

But we wouldn't want to dissuade our liberal friends from their newfound faith in Christ.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Bankruptcy laws are directly from the Bible, and I do not think taxes and student loans should be exempt, in a Christian nation, from our Biblically based bankruptcy laws.

[moon/Laura]

this is not a really a political topic folks - more financial if anything. .. and we are not discussing religion anymore since others proved it can't be done nicely.

[formerexpat]

The bible quite plainly warns that bankers are not to rip the clothes from the body nor the means of employment from the worker. What does that say with 1 in 10 out of work due to the credit crisis?

I missed the part where bankers are now taking the tools that people use to do their jobs as collateral for their debt. The banks are eating the debt and recouping it through higher interest rates on debt it extends to new customers.

The government is doing the same thing through the FHA - the insurance premiums they charge to new customers is much higher than previous customers, even though the credit worthiness of the new customers is much better than the pre-2008 customers.

[weltschmerz]

How could you have a better definition of usury than 40% penalty rates common on credit cards?
----------------------
Seems that it's perfectly legal, but when the Mafia does it.........

[formerexpat]

How could you have a better definition of usury than 40% penalty rates common on credit cards?

I don't see 40% as usury rates. I see them as the consequence of irresponsibility. A credit card is non collateralized debt and this reflects the high costs of bad debt. These kinds of rates do not occur without consistent patterns of irresponsibility. Claims made that it's triggered after one missed or late payment are hardly true. When you call, and if you are a good standing customer, they'll rectify the situation. It's just a systematic process of literally triggering a higher rate when a payment is missed in the credit card systems.

how can you not see the parallel between taking the millstone as collateral and binding students with heavy debt loads that make it impossible for them to experience economic freedom once they graduate?

I have the opposite view on student loans. I was given $100k in student loans without any collateral [$80k from Citibank, $20k from the federal government] so I could complete my degree in 4 years instead of taking 10 years +. My interest rate was LIBOR + 200 or 250 basis points. I was very thankful that I had the opportunity to get my education timely so that I could begin my career. Had it taken me 10+ years to complete my degree, the time taken would have cost me much more than the $100k in debt that I took to get my degree in 4 years.

My student loans were the key to my economic freedom; they were in no way the shackles that held me down. Not being able to get my education would have been what kept me poor in life.

People often make the mistake of blaming their inability to escape from under their student loan debt on the banks. Most times, it's due to bad choices that they've made. Generally, it's taking on $100k for a degree in a field where median income peaks at $30k, buying items that they think they can afford or believe they deserve because of their education or a combination of these that lead them to struggle financially for years after they get out of school.

Poor choices have repercussions - that's a good thing. Some people learn from them, others do not. Nothing new.

[safeharbor37]

turkeylov'n anne 81

Jesus was all about how the rich could act in such a way as to improve the poor.

Just where in the Bible do you find support for that position?

See: Parable of the talents; Matthew 25:14-30

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

[formerexpat]

How about the many hidden fees that slowly whittle away the accounts of small savers and force many to go unbanked entirely?

I also have never come across a hidden fee. Then again, I've read the schedule of fees for every bank account that I've owned - which is in excess of 20 in my short life. I'm kind of a bank whore that way.

[formerexpat]

This is how bankruptcy becomes socially-acceptable.

No, that's how you end up with 40% interest rates; because bankruptcy is no longer taken seriously by a largely ignorant and irresponsible society.

40% interest rates are the cost to a bank of writing off significant amounts of bad debt.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Nov 13, 2011 9:26:43 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

There are strong admonitions not to deprive workers of their wages, not to charge excessive interest, to provide for the widowed, orphaned and the poor. No matter how you slice it, if you adhere to Judeo-Christian values, you take these things seriously. They come from a time when "Conservative" "Liberal" "Republican" "Democratic" and so forth were not even invented.

So far as equating taxation with stealing, taxation was treated in the bible also, i.e. "Render unto Cesaer," and times when Jesus expressly refused to condemn tax collectors and ate in their homes. Appropriate levels of taxation are necessary to provide for public health and welfare, defend the land, mantain essential infrastructure like roads and water supply.

Those who equate taxation with theft might wonder whether it is more appropriate to equate using things that one is not willing to fund with theft instead.

How many times do I hav to teach Civics here? We The People are Ceasar here. Our government is our servant, not our master. To pervert the role of government from one that serve the legitimate function of protecting our natural rights into one that becomes the mercenary of the slothful is to not understand America at all.

The admonition to help the poor is directed to the individual, and the Church. Interesting that liberals who are normaly incessantly hostile to religion (and who give so little compared to conservatives- especially religious conservatives) always see fit to pervert religion to justify government greed.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Nov 13, 2011 14:02:58 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

When a creditor charges 40% interest rates, he is effectively attempting to cut to the front of the line in front of other creditors who have just as much right to be paid. So for that, he needs to have a judge or bankruptcy trustee dole out his appointed share and be sent away thwarted by his own greed.

The government is the creditor that cuts in line. Taxes & student loan debt are not dischargable in bk. they should be.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The business of revolutions was hashed out in The Declaration.

[weltschmerz]

(and who give so little compared to conservatives- especially religious conservatives)
------------------------------


Remember this, PBP?
"Screw the Poor!"

[Deleted]

I remember Jesus preaching an inversion of the social order like a real revolutionary - it would be easier to get into heaven if you were poor, etc.

The language may not seem radical to us, living in a much less hierarchical society, but at the time it was crazy talk.

[Don Perignon]

Saul of Tarsus, aka Paul, did not sow or reap or weave or smithy.
Saul was a tax-collector.

Until he found an even more parasitic profession... preaching.

[txbo]

Amazing how everyone interprets the bible according to their political persuasion. God is many things to many people and a fable to a few of us.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 13, 2011 15:20:18 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Atheism doesn't have that great a track record either.

not sure that it ever claimed one.

[weltschmerz]

I'm not aware of one.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 13, 2011 15:41:40 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Oh, I don't know, Communist Russia, China....

not my point. my point was that atheists don't generally march around saying they are morally superior to Christians. do they?

[weltschmerz]

Tyrannical dictatorships actually have very little to do with atheism. In Communist Russia, most people still remained vehemently religious.

[billisonboard]

Nov 13, 2011 15:02:46 GMT -5 txbo said:

Amazing how everyone interprets the bible according to their political persuasion. God is many things to many people and a fable to a few of us.

"You know you've created God in your own image when it turns out God hates all the same people you do" - Anne Lamott

[steff]

Why is everything now days automatically about religion and God? Are people so incapable of thinking on their own, knowing what is right or wrong that they need a big invisible bad guy in the sky to tell them what to think & what is right or wrong or else they will face his "anger"?

[formerexpat]

"You know you've created God in your own image when it turns out God hates all the same people you do" - Anne Lamott

Great quote, Bills

Why is everything now days automatically about religion and God? Are people so incapable of thinking on their own, knowing what is right or wrong that they need a big invisible bad guy in the sky to tell them what to think & what is right or wrong or else they will face his "anger"?

Have you read the God Delusion? Good book.

[phil5185]

His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

Yup, our priest did that parable this morning too.

A personal favorite - "woe unto you lawyers for you lift not a finger - " Even Jesus was displeased with lawyers.

[weltschmerz]

Nobody worshipped Stalin. They were afraid of him.

[weltschmerz]

Serial killers are sociopaths. It has nothing to do with God or religion.

[steff]

Nov 13, 2011 16:25:29 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Communism isn't the only "ism" that has atheist roots. What about Nietzsche and the whole "superman" philosophy? Ever read the Leopold and Loeb case? How about examples from classic literature, i.e. "Crime and Punishment" or "Macbeth." Many replace "God" with themselves as god, an even worse result and one that serial killers are enamored of.

I realize that you bring up historical instances to prove your point, but MY point has nothing to do with history, but has to do with what we see now days. Just a look around the board here gives a frightening glimpse of those that use religion as an excuse to deny rights to others & claim that creating a theocracy in the US is the only answer to our problems......

there's this warped level of insane bible thumping....