reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 25, 2011 21:34:12 GMT -5
Hello Everyone,
My Mom is in her mid-50's and is considering filing for Social Security Disability. She developed scoliosis in high school and it has gotten progressively worse over the course of her life. 10 years ago, when I was still in high school, her new doctor was astounded that she's still walking considering the extent of the curve of her spine... and no chiropractor will touch her for fear of causing serious injury. Needless to say her life over the past 20-ish years has been about pain management more than healing. And she's continued to work all of her adult life. If you look at her today, her spine is so crooked that one of her hips is visibly several inches higher than the other.
Mom has never made much money, she's done in-home care/assistance for the elderly for 25+ years, and prior to that she worked as a CNA and in nursing homes. She only makes about $9/hour right now (minimum wage is $8.50 here). Large portions of her working life she worked "privately" and didn't pay taxes on her income. (Don't get me started on that... I mention it only for reference, not to invite attacks on choices she made more than a decade ago.) She's been able to continue working so long because the types of work that she specializes in aren't too physically demanding. She does a lot of housekeeping, shopping, companionship, taking clients to appointments, etc. But it's getting harder and harder to get these jobs and her physical condition continues to decline.
About 3 months ago Mom started talking about filing for Social Security Disability and stop working. There's no doubt that she'll qualify, in fact she probably could have qualified many years ago. But she's always wanted to work as long as possible. And often, Mom mentions ideas like this in passing but isn't really serious about them. This time though, she's serious... she's actually started collecting the paperwork she needs in order to file.
Assets wise, she doesn't have much. No savings. She does own her property and the old mobile home that she lives in. If it came right down to it, she would split the property and deed it to my brother, sister and I now (Her parents did something similar when she was a teen. They split the homestead and legally put it in each of the children's names, but had a lifetime lease stipulation). The property is worth something, but probably not much. Subdivision or development would be extremely unlikely as it's well outside the town limits. Basically all it's good for is grazing a few head of cattle or some horses, but not big enough to make a living doing that.
I say all of that to ask this: is there anyone who has been in a similar situation that has any tips/advice/things they wish they had known at the time? What should we (my siblings and I) be thinking about in terms of long term repercussions of this? I've already mentioned getting medical power of attorney sorted out as well as her will. I've also started thinking about how we (sibs and I) could replace the mobile home with something newer. It's in my long range plans. I'm not sure I even know the right questions to ask right now. I want my Mom to be able to meet her needs and I'd also like to see her in a situation where it isn't quite so hard for her to manage her pain.
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rileyoday
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Post by rileyoday on Oct 25, 2011 21:47:14 GMT -5
If your mom stopped working and is ready to file then file on line,dont wait. Sooner she knows the results the better. Her ownership of property has no bearing on recieving SSDI if that was a question. I think she will need med records clearly stating her problems. It takes a long time.
Your mother sounds physically unsound. I hope she gets some relief soon.Good Luck.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Oct 25, 2011 21:56:37 GMT -5
Reeneejune, You say she's worked off the books. Are you sure she has enough quarters on the books to get disability? www.ssa.gov/estimator/If she goes here, you can figure out how much she'll get if she gets approved. Now, the sort of bad news. One of my relatives had to do this 15 years ago due to a neurological disorder. Even with medical reports, she's probably going to get turned down on the first application. (Unless they've changed). This has nothing to do with whether or not she should qualify, it has to do with the process. So before I worried about anything else, I'd find her an attorney who specializes in applying for SS disability. I'm not sure why you're concerned about the property now. AFAIK, the disability is not going to require her to give up assets. She can't work and be on disability, but my cousin was certainly allowed to keep her house and car on disability. But, since she's in her mid 50s and not in the best of health, she may have to sell the land to support herself. That's not social security, that's reality. Trying to avoid that may not be in her best interest. I know people don't want to lose family land and I understand that but she's in her 50's, she has no retirement, right? Even if she gets disability, she's still going to need insurance (unless she's already on Medicaid.) Her disability is going to be based on her reported SS earnings which isn't going to be a lot, right? I would talk to an attorney now. Before she does anything else and certainly before she files paperwork.
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 25, 2011 21:59:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. She's currently still working, but is gathering the information she needs to apply. Her plan right now is to gather the information she'll need and go and talk to someone at the local SSA office with either my sister or I with her... she's not very good at filling out forms or wording her questions in a way that other people understand. My sister and I are both good at translating from Mom-ish to English. LOL.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Oct 25, 2011 22:02:41 GMT -5
Honestly, in her case, I'd talk to the lawyer first and then SSA office.
I loved the SSA when my father was 65 and retiring but for disability, it really requires someone who knows what they're doing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 22:08:43 GMT -5
There is a 6 month waiting period to receive benefits after filing for SSDI - the wait period is based on when your disability began (seems like this is going to be a fuzzy point for what you describe, so you might want the counsel of an experienced attorney for the initial filing so she has the best opportunity for rapid approval). SS Payments are made one month behind the period they cover (so your intial 6 month wait is really a bit longer) Since she is currently working, does she have Short or Long Term Disability Insurance? If so, that could cover her for the wait period. Also check if she has a life insurance policy with accelerated payment benefits. She may not qualify for the acceleration payment (you usually have to be terminal) but if she has this policy through work, she should do what she can to continue it. This type of policy can really help when someone needs extra care towards the end of their life. Refer to the SS website - you should review the "Do I Qualify" Info right away to ensure she will be considered for benefits www.socialsecuritydisability-benefits.com/SSD-Form/QualifyingCriteria.aspxIf you have a SS office in the local area, have mom go in to talk to them before filing (but go in soon) -- Our experience was that the staff were very helpful and provided sound guidance (this was for a terminal illness situation, so it was pretty cut & dry).
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mizbear
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Post by mizbear on Oct 25, 2011 22:24:18 GMT -5
reeenee- When we had to do my disability paperwork we had to have a ton of medical documentation- now I understand because I have a mental illness instead of a tangible physical condition that may have made it harder to prove for me, but make sure your mom gets her medical records for as long back as she can. And you need to look at how many quarters she has paid in- she may have messed herself up there. The waiting period can be 6 months to 2 years and she will get a limited number of appeals.
All of the resources everyone has listed online are the best most up to date resources. If she starts the process now, she will find out sooner what is what.
The website should give you the basics of what you need- but remember- documentation documentation documentation- and keep copies of everything- keep a file.
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 25, 2011 22:46:30 GMT -5
Mom seems to think that even though she doesn't have many quarters of paid in work to Social Security, that she should be able to qualify based on my Dad's work history. I'm a little more leery of that. They've been divorced for 2 years now, but were married for about 30 years.
She does not currently have any form of insurance.
As for selling the property... I can tell you right now that regardless of whether or not it's in her best interest, she's not going to do it. One of her sisters took out a mortgage with her part of the property as collateral to pay for a new mobile home after her old one burned down. I thought Mom was going to come unglued when she found out. Aside from the emotional ties, the stark reality of the situation is that IF she can find a buyer for the property, it's doubtful that she'd earn enough money from the sale to pay for a home in town outright and she'd end up in a worse financial position than she's in now...she'd have a house payment to worry about on top of everything else.
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mizbear
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Post by mizbear on Oct 25, 2011 22:52:14 GMT -5
She should not have to sell the property. Home ownership and car ownership are not disqualifiers.
If your father is still living, I don't know if she can collect on his. If he were to die and not remarry, she can collect off of his (I know this because my estranged father actually volunteered that info to my mother- I thought we were in for a tornado or something) because they were married for more than 10 years unless it has changed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 23:03:37 GMT -5
I don't think you get SSDI for your own disability on a spouses record. I believe it is SSDI on your record or SSI because you do not have enough credits. When she reaches retirement age, then she can file for Retirement Benefits based on the ex-spouse record. Info from SS website is below - she may have enough credits on her own. In past years she should have been receiving the SS statement of benefits she is eligible for on her record (they used to send it out automatically)
How long must I work to be insured?
To get SSDI benefits based on your own work record, you need a certain number of Social Security credits. To earn a credit, you must make a certain amount of money. That amount changes each year. For example, in 2011, a credit is added to your account for each $1120 you earn, up to a maximum of four credits per year. In 2012, a credit is added to your account for each $1130 you earn.
The number of work credits you need to qualify for SSDI depends on your age when you become disabled. The number of credits you need increases with age. For example:
if you are age 31 to 42 when you become disabled, you need 20 credits if you are age 62 or older when you become disabled, you need 40 credits for other ages, see How Many Credits You Need on the SSA site. In most cases, you must earn at least 20 of the credits in the 10 years immediately before you became disabled. There are special rules for younger disabled workers and the blind.
To get family benefits as the spouse or child of an insured family member, you do not have to earn any credits. However, the insured family member (your spouse, ex-spouse, or parent) must have enough credits.
What if I do not have enough credits?
If you do not have enough credits, you cannot get Social Security Disability Insurance benefits based on your own work record, and your family cannot get family benefits based on your record.
If you are the spouse, ex-spouse, or dependent child of an insured worker with enough credits, you do not have to have credits of your own to get family benefits. Family benefits are based on the work record of the insured worker.
Note: If you do not qualify for SSDI, but you are disabled and need cash assistance, you might be eligible for Supplemental Security Income (SSI). SSI is a need-based cash assistance program. For more information, see Supplemental Security Income (SSI).
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Oct 25, 2011 23:07:34 GMT -5
As far as I know, once they've been married more than 10 years, getting divorced doesn't keep her from his SS (and his new wife would still be eligible as well.)
I don't know - maybe someone else does - whether she can start collecting disability on his. She should be able to collect the spousal benefit, but I'm not sure whether disability has a spousal benefit.
Please get legal advice.
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HappyCat
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Post by HappyCat on Oct 25, 2011 23:20:24 GMT -5
ReeneeJune: I don't have much to add but I wanted to say that about 15 years ago I worked for an attorney who specialized in SSI cases (in Georgia..I think you live in Oregon?). The rule of thumb was (and again 15 years ago) that EVERYONE got turned down the first time unless it was an extreme cut and dry case. There is so much abuse of the SSI system that they really put you through the wringer to get approved. So, if by chance your mom gets turned down please file an appeal. Also the more documentation from doctors such as medical records, medical bills, letters of diagnosis, etc that you have the better your case will be. (The attorney usually requests all your med records and history for his case.) Good luck to your mom!
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 25, 2011 23:34:39 GMT -5
Yes HappyCat, we're in Oregon.
I'll suggest that she get some legal assistance in going through the process. I'm not sure how we'll manage that, financially, but it sounds like it's going to be a need rather than a want.
We are lucky (in an odd sort of way) that this is not a sudden situation. We've known for years that at some point, she'd have to stop working and that it was very likely that she wouldn't make it to retirement age before needing to go out on disability. We're also lucky in that she's very frugal, has almost no debt (I think she currently owes less than $500), and does own her home. So if she's got to stop working for a while before she qualifies, my sister and I can help her out. (Yes, I do have a brother also, I mentioned him in the first post. He's in prison, so he's not in a position to be of any help right now.)
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 26, 2011 12:22:50 GMT -5
Many attorneys allow a free 30 minute consultation. I suggest NOT hiring an attorney the first time, do it if you need to appeal.
If she has very little income now she may qualify for food stamps and energy assistance.
When she stops working, she should qualify for both food stamps and energy assistance.
Some states have programs to help people who are unable to work and are not yet receiving any Social Security benefits. Check to see if your state has any such benefits.
One thing that is helpful is to understand what the questions mean. For example: Can you cook? Does NOT mean "Are you able to put a frozen dinner in the microwave?" What it really means is "Are you able to stand long enough to cook a dinner from scratch? Do you have the strength to hold and use a knife to chop an onion?"
Many people have been denied because they put down they can cook when in reality all they can do is to put something in the microwave.
They will ask if you can take care of yourself. If you need to go to a salon to have your hair washed because you are unable to raise your arms enough to do it yourself, Don't just put down yes. Explain that you are unable to wash your hair.
It is true that most people are denied on their first attempt. However, age is a consideration when SSA determines if the worker is able to work or not. So, her age will be in her favor in this instance.
She does need to check to see if she has enough "quarters" to be eligible for SSDI. If not, she can apply for SSI after she stops working. The current benefit amount in my state is $674. Some states add an additional amount but Oregon is not one of them.
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MittenKitten
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Post by MittenKitten on Oct 26, 2011 12:35:48 GMT -5
reenee: Many attorneys will work for a portion of the SSI or SSDI benefits and there are caps on how much they can take. Consult with one and see what they have to say. Many trying out for SSDI or SSI cannot afford to pay attorney fees.
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Anne_in_VA
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Post by Anne_in_VA on Oct 26, 2011 12:36:55 GMT -5
reeneejune - If you hire an attorney who specializes in this type of case, they will often take the case on a contingency fee basis. In other words, if they are able to get your mom disability payments after she's turned down, the payments are typically retroactive from when she originally applied for it and the attorney will get a % of the back payments.
So, for example, if your mom applies tomorrow and gets turned down next month, then hires an attorney to help her with the case and she is awarded either SSI or SSDI in November 2012 in the amount of $500 a month, then (again this is what I've heard) she would get $6000 in back payments and then she'd start getting the $500 a month from then on.
If the agreement with the attorney is that he'd get 1/3 of whatever back payments she's awarded, then he'd get $2K and any costs incurred in the handling of the case (postage, court costs, etc.) and your mom would get $4k less any additional costs charged by the attorney. I don't know if taxes are taken out of the back payments or not.
If your mom does decide to use an attorney, please have her get some recommendations and interview a few. You should also make sure you understand how much the attorney will take and any costs to be charged. You should not pay any money up front (at least that's how I understand it, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 26, 2011 14:40:10 GMT -5
Thank you again to everyone who has replied.
I think the tenative plan for now will be: - Gather the appropriate info (medical records, her divorce papers, statements from medical providers, bills, etc.) - Schedule a sit down meeting with someone at the local SSA office - Find out if the agency she works for offers disability insurance as an option, and if so sign up ASAP. -Begin looking into lawyers in the area in the event that her claim is denied and she needs to appeal. - Look into the costs for long term care insurance. Because at some point she's going to need a caregiver.
Anne - You made an excellent point about ADL's (activities of daily living). There are plenty of daily and seasonal tasks that she really should not be completing in her condition, but that she does anyway or relies on friends to be kind and take care of it. I'll keep that in mind as we move forward.
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sbcalimom
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Post by sbcalimom on Oct 26, 2011 14:53:34 GMT -5
Renee: My mom was approved for SSDI in the last year but was able to get STD through the state until it kicked in. We live in CA so not sure if all states do this but it is something to look into if there is a waiting period for it after approval. She got less money on the STD than on SSDI but it was still better than nothing.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 27, 2011 9:54:56 GMT -5
Anne is correct that you do not pay an attorney up front. However the amount posted is incorrect. It is different from most contingency cases.
The quote below is from SSA's website:
If you tell Social Security that you are working, they will tell you that you cannot apply.
However, after SSDI is approved, you can work for up to 9 months "in a trial work period" You need to make sure that any work done is under their current SGA (substantial gainful activity) amount.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Oct 27, 2011 22:17:10 GMT -5
just assume she is going to be denied the first time--its SOP--I don't think you can involve an attorney on the first try but maybe, they will pay back the period that she was disabled but not collecting, but basically she is going to have to quit work have a plan or you support her and then eventually get coverage, this is tough because she has a chronic condition but has managed to work so far.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Oct 27, 2011 22:25:56 GMT -5
your mother will be able to collect based on your father when she reaches retirement age--this has no affect on your fathers collection--this was done to help protect SAHMS when their husbands ran off. She is elligable for up to half of what he would get. I do not think this affects SSDI at all but that is something for a lawyer--she could collect on SSDI until 62 then switch to std SS on your fathers record--remarriage might affect this.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Oct 29, 2011 9:06:24 GMT -5
The problem with not having a lawyer first is that almost every one gets denied the first time. But a lot of people also get denied on the second go round. My cousin was on disability with the NPS and still got denied when she applied on her own. Twice.
The second problem is exactly what peace said. How you answer the questions is not automatically obvious. Peace knows what the answers should be so she doesn't think you need a lawyer. I don't so I do.
The real reason I think she needs a lawyer is because SS does NOT want to pay out disability. Social security retirement benefits, yes; disability, no. So there are things she can say during that little information gathering interview which are going to be recorded - like the land ownership, like the fact that she's currently working, etc. which may be used against her in the process - delaying when she can get the disability. I'm not saying it SHOULD BE used against her, I'm saying they can give it as a reason and you have to go back to dispute whether or not it CAN be a reason.
The problem becomes if she really should be out on disability, every month she isn't is leading to her condition getting more painful, more wearying, etc. By the time my cousin got through the process and got to the court hearing, she wasn't well enough to sit with the lawyer for more than an hour at any given time. It's a fine line between when you have the strength to go through the process and when someone else will have to do it on your behalf.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Oct 31, 2011 11:39:08 GMT -5
I suggest that she see an attorney for a free consultation. Hiring a lawyer is a different matter.
I was told by SSA that I could not apply the first time I contacted them by phone. That was an error. I could have applied but would have been denied even though I could only work 10 hours per week.
Another problem with waiting to apply is that they determine your disability paycheck by your previous income. Someone who tries to work a few hours per week is actually worse off than someone who suddenly can't work due to a terrible accident.
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Oct 31, 2011 18:16:19 GMT -5
patstab - My parents were married for 29 years. As far as selling the property to pay for her care and living expenses... that's just not going to happen for a number of reasons. A) Emotional attachment. B) It makes no sense financially (she wouldn't get enough money from the sale of the property to pay for her housing through her expected life span). And C) Moving her to a senior housing setting would rob her of several key lifestyle pieces that have been a part of her life since birth, and it's not something anyone in my family would be comfortable doing unless it truly was a last resort.
As far as the disability vs. work question goes, she's been working despite her doctor's advice not to for a number of years. There's no question that any doctor who examines her will find her physically unsound to continue to work. But she's stubborn and won't quit until she's good and ready. Yes, lots of people have scoliosis. I'm not talking about an average case. I'm not going to spend a lot of time describing her symptoms and physical realities for two reasons: 1) Whether or not she's disabled enough to be considered disabled isn't the point of this thread. 2) I don't feel it's respectful of my Mom to go into too much detail about her health condition. Part of her quest for information is deciding when the right time to stop working is.
You've all brought up some great, though-provoking issues. We're still in the information gathering stage. Mom hasn't made any decisions yet, and I want her to be fully informed about her options before she makes any decisions.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Oct 31, 2011 21:48:07 GMT -5
Reneejune,
I was able to file for SSDI successfully for my DH last year. It was complicated, but doable. You can do it for your mother as her "non-attorney representative".
To start, you cite that this is a claim for SSDI for Jane Doe, date of birth 1/1/1955, social security number 999-99-9999. Jane Doe is eligible for SSDI because she meets the criteria for disabled and has worked for 40 quarters earning enough credit for coverage. The quarters worked are: (list the years).
The disability criteria met are: 1.04 Musculoskeletal Disorders of the Spine with A., evidence of nerve compression and motor loss. This is documented in the October 2, 2010 letter from Dr. Backbone, in which she states, "patient is unable to ambulate due to..." (letter attached).
The disablement is continuing and increasing, as documented by Dr. Backbone. Pain is increasing over time, documented by Dr. Painease on January 2, 2011, letter attached.
Basically, you take the criteria listed in the SSA Blue Book (it's online) and quote those that apply, pairing them with documentation of how they are satisfied. Attach copies of all documentation. Add at the end a table listing all attachments. Make it as easy as you can for SSA to find what they need.
If she needs another quarter or two to qualify, she should do all she can to work that time.
HTH
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reeneejune
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Post by reeneejune on Nov 1, 2011 0:03:24 GMT -5
Thanks patstab. I know that everyone sharing their experiences/opinions here are genuinely trying to help, and I really appreciate it.
And thank you finnime. I wasn't aware that an individual without professional credentials could act as a representative. That would be very helpful in my Mom's case as she has difficulty understanding government forms/paperwork and isn't very good at phrasing her questions in a way that gets her the information that she needs.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 13, 2011 12:03:40 GMT -5
Good luck. It doesn't sound as if your mother should be working.
My cousin got turned down for SSI when he was dying of brain cancer. He did get it on the appeal, but was deceased by then. His widow got the lump sum payment up to the date of his death. However, she sure could have used the money while he was still living as she took a leave from her job to take care of him.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Nov 14, 2011 1:20:16 GMT -5
My dad was disabled slowly in his 50s. He would work a day or two then quit the job to lay on the couch to recover. He was trying to work 120 hours a quarter to get medical insurance but it was really hard a day or two at a time. Mom told him to give it up she would cover him on her medical insurance. He had thing done to his leg veins and had heart attacks and didn't work after he was around 58. When he was 62 he applied for SS and was awarded SSDI retro active to when he quit working. He had problems after an accident when he was around 40 but it got worse over the years.
He didn't have trouble proving he couldn't work because he had medical history and had actually quit working.
You might want your mom to quit trying to work and you kids support her until she can get SSDI if she has her 40 quarters. Working seems to prove she can work. If she could move in with one of her kids she can say she needed help with daily living and couldn't work or have one of the kids stay with her.
SSDI has nothing to do with need or marriage or divorce. She will get about what she would if she worked to age 67. If it is less than what SSI pays she can get it supplemented to that amount. SSI is only about $647 but she can get food stamps. She might be able to get some welfare while she waits and food stamps so it isn't so expensive to support her.
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Moonblossom
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Post by Moonblossom on Nov 14, 2011 10:01:25 GMT -5
My son gets SSI, He was NOT Denied the first time and receives $674.00 a month, he is allowed to own a home and a car but cannot have more then $3,000 in a bank account. If/When his father or I die it will switch to SS benefits from which ever one of us died. Your mother will be able to receive benefits from your dad WHEN she is retirement age but she should be able to get SSI now, we did hear you were denied the first time and it was unusual for you to not be denied, my son had a Brain Tumor and we had enough documentation to prove he was unable to work, we also had guardianship of his finances. He was 18 when we applied and after 6 months he got about 5 months of repayment from SSI which from what I hear is standard also. I wish your mom good luck, I have seen people with such bad Scoliosis but usually they are much, much older I'm sorry your mom has to go thru so much pain.
~Teri
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TheOtherMe
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Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
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Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 14, 2011 11:36:29 GMT -5
The woman who I pay the bills for as her rep payee receives $674 per month. Do you know how hard it is to live on that amount of money? She has Section 8 housing. When she had to pay full price for her rent, while she was on the waiting list, she had to survive on $40 per week in spending money for everything else. Now she gets $105 per week in spending money. She gets $16 month in food stamps. Her electricity/gas is in with her apartment rent.
She has no car and receives Medicaid. I'm told she can not have more than $2K in her bank account at any time, but there is no worry over that.
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