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Post by jemima on Nov 2, 2011 14:26:06 GMT -5
In animals, infanticide involves the killing of young offspring by a mature animal of its own species, and is studied in zoology, specifically in the field of ethology. Filial infanticide occurs when a parent kills its own offspring. This sometimes involves consumption of the young themselves, which is termed filial cannibalism.
Zoologists have observed filial cannibalism, the act of eating one's offspring, in many different types of animals, including hamsters, polar bears, bank voles, house finches, wolf spiders and many fish species (one in particular the "goby"), also many fresh-water aquarium fishes eat their young, such as tetras, black mollies, guppies, and gouramis. Mormon crickets are known to eat their own kind, not just the young.
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 2, 2011 14:37:44 GMT -5
Hmmmm.. Carry on. Ha! Cool! Where is Sinclair Leviathon? That was Virgil. Lol...He hung up his Halloween suit.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 14:53:36 GMT -5
I believe a few rare examples of filial cannibalism in Polar bears, hamsters and voles does not really shake the foundations of my genius theory. The nurture instinct is at its strongest in social mammals, especially primates who we share a common ancestor with. Empathy has been observed in chimps, a very handy tool when it comes to assessing the needs of ones young, not much evidence of chimps being taught to empathize.
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Post by jemima on Nov 2, 2011 14:57:21 GMT -5
I believe a few rare examples of filial cannibalism in Polar bears, hamsters and voles does not really shake the foundations of my genius theory. The nurture instinct is at its strongest in social mammals, especially primates who we share a common ancestor with. Empathy has been observed in chimps, a very handy tool when it comes to assessing the needs of ones young, not much evidence of chimps being taught to empathize. Your grand theory had minor holes... someone had to show it to you. My pleasure.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 15:13:06 GMT -5
The exception proves the rule comes to mind, anyway I believe my nurture theory is best demonstrated in social mammals, I believe all 3 of your minor holes are solitary mammals.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 2, 2011 17:42:02 GMT -5
I find it all rather amusing watching believers accuse Tosh of evasion even though whenever the believers have their feet held to the fire they either put you on ignore, run to the God Loving People thread, or simply say, "I believe because I do!"
There has been more evasion by the believers in this thread than I saw in 4 years of dodgeball in gym class.
The trouble here is that, whenever a supernatural and/or magical explanation for events in our universe is on the table, there is no logical way to argue against it - aside from pointing out that believing that all was magically "poofed" into existence by a supreme being is, in itself, somewhat illogical.
However, it is very easy and a bit disingenuous to put forth an argument that nurturing is learned behavior when you really believe the first animals were granted nurturing knowledge magically by God. However, when magical explanations are required to make a successful point, the gig is up, as far as I'm concerned.
All one can really do is sit back and realize that this is just yet more "God of the Gaps" logic. In other words, if science hasn't proven it yet, it must be God's doing! Of course, this has been proven false over and over again, but still people cling to it.
It's also puzzling why people imply that if scientists do not know something now, they will never know it. Or, to put it another way, we have amassed all the knowledge we are capable of knowing, therefore, any unanswered questions must be the result of God!
Simply because science has not unraveled all the mysteries of life, origins, genetics, and behavior in 2011 does not mean they never will. Yet that is what believers are saying even if they don't realize it. One cannot automatically attribute human ignorance of a cause to a supernatural force - that is what primitive man has done for almost 100,000 years. It would appear, then, that some minds are simply primitives surrounded by high technology. It is an interesting, albeit dangerous, dichotomy.
P.S. - Perhaps the "God Loving People" thread should be changed to the "God Loving Backstabbers" thread. It's pretty unsurprising that those espousing grandiose Christian values run back to their thread to talk smack about the non-believers in this thread. At the very least, we put all our cards on the table. Atheists aren't hiding in their own thread and insulting people. I guess that's a -1 for Christian kindness and forthrightness.
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 17:43:44 GMT -5
I am watching a documentary on a Christian end of the world cult, with some nit wit leader claiming to be the Messiah.
It is a form of self indoctrination or voluntary brainwashing, if you tell yourself that the end is coming over and over again then it becomes real and plausible.
The ubiquitous Svengali gets to have sex with all the women of course, if nothing else these cult leaders are consistent. Seemingly God forced him to have sex with his son's wife ?
This once again demonstrates how malleable the human mind is, how easily it can be trained to believe and do anything.
It was made in 2007 a few months before the apocalypse was due, mmm that was 4 years ago.
Nutters.
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 18:04:46 GMT -5
Good evening Shirina,
My dear friend Jarhead lives by one motto, if you can not empirically prove it then God did it, seemingly social mammals have to be taught to care for the physical and emotional needs of their offspring.
Nurture and love are a gift of God, nothing to do with evolution.
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 18:11:43 GMT -5
Oh good....... They all love the girls.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 18:25:48 GMT -5
Tosh, you know as well as I do that most people want to be part of something that is bigger than themselves. They want to be connected to infinity, to otherness, to a lasting immutable something, otherwise, if you really think about it, the 75, 80 years on this little blue planet…and then nothing, a void, a complete erasure, is too absurd. That thought is fraught with existential terror…it can be paralyzing.
But there is the great salvation of human stupidity. We don’t think about life being a finite process, we are too absorbed in the Kardashians (do they still have Coronation Street and East Enders…that would be it). Belief is a shield against the notion of being becoming nothingness.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 2, 2011 18:26:44 GMT -5
I have a cat that gave birth to three litters of kittens (what a nightmare). I managed to adopt out all of the kittens. In fact, my cat was the kitten of a neighborhood stray. I took her in when the kitten was only a month old.
Now ... the first issue here is, despite the number of kittens and mother cats stalking around my house, never once did I EVER see the mother cat giving "nurturing lessons" to any of her kittens.
The second issue is this: One of the kittens was adopted by my mother, and she grew up to have a litter of kittens (the kitten, not my mother LOL!). The mother cat did very well with her litter despite the fact that the mother cat was taken from her own mother at a young age and lived in a home without any other cats. So where did this mother cat learn nurturing?
And the third issue is this: My own cat, who I took in as a kitten, was very nurturing to her kittens even though she was also taken from her mother at a young age. So who taught my cat how to nurture?
I mean, for crying out loud, any pet owner knows that nurturing is instinctive since MANY animals are adopted while still very young. They aren't even around the parent animal long enough to be taught a bloody thing. The "nurture is learned behavior" argument falls flat through simple observation. Requiring proof via a "nurture gene" is not required.
I'm not sure why this simple fact eludes them.
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 19:07:47 GMT -5
Faith.
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 2, 2011 20:09:35 GMT -5
Tosh, you know as well as I do that most people want to be part of something that is bigger than themselves. They want to be connected to infinity, to otherness, to a lasting immutable something, otherwise, if you really think about it, the 75, 80 years on this little blue planet…and then nothing, a void, a complete erasure, is too absurd. That thought is fraught with existential terror…it can be paralyzing. But there is the great salvation of human stupidity. We don’t think about life being a finite process, we are too absorbed in the Kardashians (do they still have Coronation Street and East Enders…that would be it). Belief is a shield against the notion of being becoming nothingness. That's why every single religion since the Dawn of Time has been thanatocentric at its core. It plays on peoples' fears of just winking out of existence. Can't have that, you know.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 2, 2011 22:18:25 GMT -5
"Terrified of winking out of existence" is the theory du jour, I see. Quite a triumph of enlightenment after only 3,600 posts. I find solace in knowing that long after all time and space has passed away, a lone patch of "existence" will remain wherein the countless atheistic chestnuts spewed from this thread will collect into an infinite Library of Babel. And at its heart will be this thread—fueled by inexhaustible obsession and idleness, endlessly recycling theories and reassurances in stubborn defiance of nullity. As for more pressing matters: I ventured in her having noticed Rick's name in the last poster column after the Rick/Tosh melee was shut down in EE. Rick, Tosh: the mods are watching you. Thank you for your attention. P.S. If this thread makes it to 150 pages, the mods who routinely monitor it won't mind winking out of existence. Have some compassion, will you?
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Post by Shirina on Nov 2, 2011 23:50:46 GMT -5
Funny how an admin is in this thread bashing the reasons for its existence, but seems not to care a whit for the equally pointless and circular "God Loving People" thread. Or how about the dozens if not hundreds of threads filled with one-liners, sexual innuendo, weather reports, and updates on who is eating what. Funny how atheists are just wasting time in "idleness" and repetition, but even with the little insults and backbiting going on in the "God Loving People" thread, not a word is said by the staff. Now ... why would that be, I wonder? I'm certainly hoping it isn't religious bias! *gasp* I would certainly hate to see such a trait displayed so openly by an admin, of all people.
Perhaps I should find a thread enjoyed by Virgil just to throw my own brand of droll and sarcasm-dripping smart-arsed remarks into the mix.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 3, 2011 0:21:37 GMT -5
Apparently you didn't read the last half of that Amin's post where he explained the reason for his presence here on this thread?
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 0:42:30 GMT -5
Yes, I read it, and if Virgil was simply here minding the store, so to speak, and keeping an eye on things, that was all that needed to be said.
My apologies if I'm somewhat prickly about this, but as an atheist, I get really tired of being told, either directly or through implication, to essentially sit down and shut up. That's what it sounded like to me, and if I am wrong, then I'll be the first to apologize.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 3, 2011 1:00:10 GMT -5
Indeed you may freely stand and proclaim atheism to the masses, Ms. Shirina. I shan't visit again until the thread hits 200 pages... at which point we may need to convert it into a "Tosh & Friends" board to avoid integer overflow problems with the post count. Until then, I retreat to my sanctum of existential terror. Namaste.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 1:25:43 GMT -5
Tosh already has a "Tosh's Bar" thread in the "Everything Else" section. And I do apologize, Virgil, if I misinterpreted your post.
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Post by jarhead1976 on Nov 3, 2011 6:11:07 GMT -5
Tosh and Sharina , you two have done nothing but twist my words. I have respected your points of view and with all due respect a wise ass remark in reply to your own. I have defended your right to believe what you want. I ask that if you have a point to make that you direct them to me . I have been forth right in my answers while you have answered none of mine. Enjoy each other because you will soon be here alone in your believes. Sharina , if hypocrocy were a dress , Id say you wear it well.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 6:46:26 GMT -5
Jarhead,
I have no idea to which "wise-ass" remark you refer to. As far as I know, I have not made any aside for a few tossed toward "Femmefatale" and "gavinsnana," both of whom attacked me like pit vipers then ignored me all because they practically rewrote my posts, such was the magnitude of their misinterpretation of them.
All I have actually said to you, Jarhead, was to point out that whenever believers fall back on magic as an explanation, the argument is essentially over. One cannot form a coherent counter-argument when the laws of physics no longer apply. Am I wrong in this or do you have a rebuttal? Your sharply worded post to me is a puzzling mystery since I cannot fathom where I have wronged you. Perhaps it would be helpful to post a quote or two as an example of where I went astray?
Regarding your questions that remain unanswered, well, again I do not recall any questions being asked of me. For some strange reason, they all seem to be directed to Tosh. I suppose it's quite possible I missed one of your direct questions thinking it was meant for Tosh, as well. I'm not sure any believer here has actually asked me a direct question, and I have found answering questions not given to me directly is a thorough waste of time as the questioner will simply ignore my responses.
Therefore, if you have a question, I would be most happy to attempt an answer. I am not an unreasonable person. Honest!
Now, for your accusation of hypocrisy, on this I would demand proof. As a moderator on a different board, I have banned people for making unproven accusations against other posters as I consider spurious charges perhaps the worst form of personal insult. When I accuse, I do so with proof, and I readily display it which I have done in this thread. I would expect the same from those who accuse me. Thus, if you can show me precisely where my hypocrisy lies, I would be most appreciative. Otherwise, you're shooting in the dark.
LOL! And I will proffer an admission, as well. I was genuinely under the impression that only Joey, Tosh, and Weltz were even reading my posts. I only seem to get a response when I'm flagrantly rude - which under normal circumstances I try not to do. Tosh's cult of personality has effectively drowned out everyone else (no offense, of course, Tosh ... but I still think it was you who blew your chances! Hah!). Bluntness and a bit of controversy seemed the only option to get anyone to take notice. Perhaps that is what you detect in my wording?
I have no wish to quarrel with you - or anyone else.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 7:24:00 GMT -5
And your behavior is precisely the kind of attitude that led to people getting banned.
Perhaps some of that omniscience has rubbed off on you from that God of yours. How else could you possibly know the details of the incident so thoroughly as to make such a ridiculous claim as yours? Perhaps you enjoy wasting time with endless flame wars, hate threads, and personal vendettas driving all the rational posters away, and if that is your idea of "free discussion," then by all means open your own board.
But most people, I would think, would rather be called a meaningless name than to be accused of lying, hypocrisy, narcissism, and various other things without any proof or evidence with which to support it.
But it matters little. You are not there nor are you sufficiently versed in the details of what occurred for your opinion to amount to anything more than the wailing of a banshee.
In short, you're simply trolling. And you suck at it.
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Post by Tosh on Nov 3, 2011 7:27:34 GMT -5
Hello Robert,
There comes a time in every childs life when they must grow up and face the realities and responsibilities of adulthood, the human mind is no different in this manner. I suggest it is down to each and every consciousness to let go of Gods apron strings and make bigger their own purpose and significance. Our minds must be encouraged to create its own meaning within the parameters of a finite existence. Our sense of belonging can be fulfilled in a vast universe, it can be as big as we want to make it.
There is nothing difficult about training ones mind to live a finite life of purpose, meaning and significance, life is an epic journey it is not devalued because it has an ending. We spend or waste a great deal of our lives with insignificant distractions, building our own pyramids to the stars in our quest for immortality.
Atheism is a journey for brave minds, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
Peace.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 7:30:29 GMT -5
Someone obviously woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning. I wonder who?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2011 7:31:40 GMT -5
Well said!
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 7:33:21 GMT -5
Go back to bed, Snerdley. You obviously didn't get enough sleep last night. Or failing that, have some coffee to take the edge off. Do something, but posting first thing in the morning does you no favors. As you sit here and call me "bitter," I would invite any outside observer to judge for themselves who, in reality, is the bitter one?
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Post by jarhead1976 on Nov 3, 2011 7:36:25 GMT -5
I have a cat that gave birth to three litters of kittens (what a nightmare). I managed to adopt out all of the kittens. In fact, my cat was the kitten of a neighborhood stray. I took her in when the kitten was only a month old. Now ... the first issue here is, despite the number of kittens and mother cats stalking around my house, never once did I EVER see the mother cat giving "nurturing lessons" to any of her kittens. The second issue is this: One of the kittens was adopted by my mother, and she grew up to have a litter of kittens (the kitten, not my mother LOL!). The mother cat did very well with her litter despite the fact that the mother cat was taken from her own mother at a young age and lived in a home without any other cats. So where did this mother cat learn nurturing? And the third issue is this: My own cat, who I took in as a kitten, was very nurturing to her kittens even though she was also taken from her mother at a young age. So who taught my cat how to nurture? I mean, for crying out loud, any pet owner knows that nurturing is instinctive since MANY animals are adopted while still very young. They aren't even around the parent animal long enough to be taught a bloody thing. The "nurture is learned behavior" argument falls flat through simple observation. Requiring proof via a "nurture gene" is not required. I'm not sure why this simple fact eludes them. First The above boxed quote is no where near what was said it was Tosh's. Second comparing lions to kittens if far from reasonable. Take away all your time and effort in CARING AND NURTURING the cats and kittens and you have feral animals. Example and God forbid. You have a heart attack while driving down the road. you're cats are left to fend for themselves. Since you no longer can care for the mother cat ( feed and water ) her, her milk dries up and the kittens die. She is starving because you are gone to who knows where. That mother cat will eat her young. Its obvious you come from a loving and very nurturing family. My respects to your mother for raising such a compassionate and loving daughter. Entrusting her with a kitten of her own. IF , As a very young child had you seen her put them in a burlap bag and tossed them into a river , you might see them in a different light? Environment plays a key role in human development. The love and nurturing you have for these kittens shows that your mother has taught you to be so. My respect to you both. Requiring you to produce a gene that you both have said exist, is no less than your questioning my faith. There in lies the hypocrisy. My respects jarhead1976
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Post by Tosh on Nov 3, 2011 7:42:29 GMT -5
I would hardly describe it as a melee, it was more of a cuddling session between the green eyed monster and the laughing cavalier.
I personally blame Snicks for not setting up a thread entitled " Ricks Bar " !!
lolol ;D
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Post by Tosh on Nov 3, 2011 7:47:49 GMT -5
;D Morning Snicks,
I thought you would appreciate my poetic license, thanks for thread by the way, it was short and sweet but never less appreciated by all and sundry.
Well, nearly all lolol.
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Post by Shirina on Nov 3, 2011 8:03:29 GMT -5
The trouble here is that we are talking about animals in general, and all animals are feral at their cores, cats perhaps most of all within the ranks of domesticated creatures. It is their "barely domesticated" nature that adds to their mystique! A feral cat is only "feral" in how it treats humans, but "feral" and "natural" could be easily used interchangeably. To call a cat feral is simply acknowledging that it is behaving as it would in the wild.
I understand, at least I think I do, the point you are making. You claim that my taking care of the mother cat throughout her life has taught her how to take care of her kittens. Some part of my nurturing has transferred to the cat.
Well, the problem is: I'm not a cat. I know this because I have to be to work in half an hour, something a cat never has to worry about! Seriously though, I cannot teach a mother cat how to care for kittens. I did not teach her how to pick up her kittens by the scruff of their necks ever so gently and carry them to a place out from under foot. I did not teach her how to tell the difference between an "I'm hungry" meow and a "holy crap, come save me!" meow. I did not teach her to plop down and roll onto her side when her babies were hungry. Nor did I teach her how to make those cute little "churrrup" sounds that she uses to call them. I certainly didn't instill in her the fanatical desire to protect her kittens - growling and fussing as she does when other pets and strangers approach to near.
There are far too many things only a mother cat knows, things no human could teach her. Not even accidentally. My kindness toward my cats may have made mother kitty docile and even loving, but it takes more than emotion to raise babies.
Also, my thanks for your respects. I love cats ... in fact, I care for all animals. I'm the type who ends up wracked with a guilty conscience for killing a bug.
Oh, one last quick thing. I never claimed there was a "nurture" gene since I honestly do not know. There is still much to learn about ourselves and the natural world, so perhaps one will be pinpointed in the future. I agree with Tosh's general premise that nurturing is instinctual, but I never agreed (or disagreed) with the concept of a "nurture" gene. I left that point unremarked.
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