First Child off to College

[zibazinski]

If she'd have gone to a decent school and had a decent major, the same could be said for now. We are not going to agree on this subject, he and I, so I am staying out of it.

[kristi28]

How likely is your DD to want to go on for more schooling after the bachelors? I ask this, as this is one area where the better school may make a big difference. If she isn't likely to want to get a master's degree or PhD, then the less expensive school is probably perfectly adequate. However, getting noticed for admission to a top graduate program may be difficult from a less than top-notch public school. This is particularly true if she is interested in remaining in the biological sciences, which tend to be overrun with applicants at the moment.

I don't know how to measure the effect of being better suited to one institution than another, so I will leave that to others to address.

Personally, I went to Vandy on a merit based scholarship. When it came time to go on to graduate school, I was excepted to both the #1 and #3 programs in the country in my area (and I didn't apply to #2). A dear friend who went to a state school for undergraduate and obtained similar grades didn't get into a single top 10 program (at the time there were ~75 programs in the country). I don't believe that she is any less intelligent or capable than I am, but without the extra credentials she didn't get in.

[zibazinski]

Good questions!!! Good observations as well.

[debtheaven]

I agree. Funny I have recently been invited to join my HS's 35th reunion group on FB. The people who invited me know full well that I will not attend the reunion because I am a teacher now and the reunion is in September. It was a "special" NYC HS, you needed to score very highly on a test to get in. I moved to France after grad school, but most of the people in the US really did do stellarly, and it is a case in point of how school credentials, and your contacts, really can help make a difference later in life.

[happytraveler]

Jan 10, 2011 16:40:41 GMT -5 @kristi28 said:

How likely is your DD to want to go on for more schooling after the bachelors? I ask this, as this is one area where the better school may make a big difference. If she isn't likely to want to get a master's degree or PhD, then the less expensive school is probably perfectly adequate. However, getting noticed for admission to a top graduate program may be difficult from a less than top-notch public school. This is particularly true if she is interested in remaining in the biological sciences, which tend to be overrun with applicants at the moment.

Can't even begin to guess about what happens after college---life would be a lot easier if we only knew the path we were going to take ahead of time. I am not particularly worried about her getting into the "best" college, or "best" graduate school. My own thought is that one can have a very successful and pleasent life without having gone to the "Harvard" for their particular field of interest/study. Just my own thought, but I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

[illinicheme]

If she does major in chemistry, she may want to keep in mind that getting a graduate degree is extremely common in that field. (I don't know much about biology majors or the careers it supports.) Chemistry would provide some great career options, but many of the BS-level positions aren't great (glorified lab techs). Lots and lots of chemistry majors go on to get advanced degrees.

One thing that might help her make a decision is to look at the rankings of the programs she's interested in. If one school is significantly better in chemistry than another, it's probably worth it to choose that school. Similarly, if she's pretty set on a science major, she should pay attention to research opportunities (a bigger school might provide more variety and a more realistic taste of what grad school would be like but might have more competition, whereas a smaller school might have a higher percentage of undergrads who do lab research, but it may not be as intense an experience).

In my case, I don't remember how my parents communicated it, but it was pretty clear to me that they would pay for the state school, but wouldn't necessarily pay for the full cost of a private school. I briefly entertained the idea of Northwestern, Stanford, and the like, but at the end of the day, it just didn't make sense to go anywhere but Illinois. In-state tuition + top-ten undergrad program in my field? Nothing was going to beat that.

Good luck to your daughter. Whatever choice she makes, she's about to embark on some of the most interesting years of her life.

[binl1908]

Because you mentioned that you had the resources to pay for each of the three schools, I'd like to offer an alternate suggestion - which will most likely be flamed upon by all former YM'ers. Spend time with your daughter and get to really understand which school will be the best to attend, in both the short term (her time there) and the long term (her future career) and then do as much as you can to make it successful. Like you, I had sufficient resources to pay for each of my two children's college choices and that is what I did. I am extremely lucky to have two very mature children who understood that their college education was not a party time (at least not all of the time). My daughter did end up on the "5 yr" plan at a private collere when she changed majors, but I was very happy with her final career choice. My son was offered very good merit scholarships to a couple of top notch private schools, but decided on going to State University when they offered him entrance to their Honors program. Both are now graduated, moved out, and involved in very successful careers - and are very cognizant and grateful they have no SL's hanging around their neck.

Yes, I made the choice to pay full ride for both my children. I was also able to fully fund my retirement accounts. I don't buy toys and I live a simple lifestyle. I have gotten great joy out of spending my money this way. I'm not saying this is the way you should go, just letting you know that this was the choice I made and am very happy with it.

[zibazinski]

If your DD has to go onto grad school, you need to financially plan for that as well plus her undergrad school may be more important.

[illinicheme]

The financial planning for grad school would depend entirely on the field the daughter chooses. I can't speak for biology, but in chemistry, grad school is generally paid for, plus the students usually receive a small stipend.

(How far do we have the cart in front of the horse now?!?)

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 10, 2011 7:43:35 GMT -5 happytraveler said:

My daughter is set to go off to college next year. She has done pretty well in school, and has been offered some merit based scholarships at the 3 colleges she has been accepted to so far. I have calculated the net price of tuition/room/board after deducting the value of the scholarships for each school, and estimated the total 4-year cost ot of pocket of attending each school. The costs are as follows:

State University: $26,096
Private Univsersity: $121,752
Liberal Arts College: $100,828

Education wise, the Private University probably has a better reputation than the State School, and is a better "fit" for her academically, socially, etc. But, I am certain she could go to the State University and get a very fine education and have a positive expereince. In short, I think the private University is a "better" school, but not 4-5 times better. Her second choice, at the moment, is the small liberal arts college.

I have made no commitments to her about how much of her college education I would fund; I have not promised her she could, for example, go anywhere she wants, and I would pick up the tab. I have told her we would see where she gets in, and then we would evaluate her options. I am considering telling her that I will pay for the cost of the State University in full, but any costs beyond that, she will be responsible for. Financially, I have the resources to pay for any of her choices, but I am not sure (for a variety of reasons) I should pay for her to go to college anywhere she chooses. Part of my dillema is that if she goes to the more expensive school, she will likely be burdened with student loans for years to come. Being 17, I don't think she has the maturity and life expereince to understand how owing someone $100,000 could impact her.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

I think I have had the same question I had to think about and make my own mind up.. Two things are important.. No one cares about where you do your BS/BA or BBS from. Save money and get a good Masters/ PhD.

If you get to the bottom line it is all about teachers and mentors.. Most of the time the extra cost is not worth it in the long run. It did graduate level work at both and the State Schools were just a good.. You get out of education what you put in and too often name schools are more about party and high cost then hard core education.I also studied in England and France for short classes in the summer.
The only time I was asked about why I did my MBA at five universities was in an job interview at Goldman.

Just a few years experience,
Bi Metal Au Pt

[debtheaven]

If your DD has to go onto grad school, you need to financially plan for that as well plus her undergrad school may be more important.

I disagree with this. Personally if I could I'd rather pay for my kids' undergrad and then expect them to pay for grad school. I'd help them if I could but I would not / do not feel feel the same way about paying for grad school. (Not to say that grad school is not important, not at all.) Only that if they graduate college with no school loans, that's pretty darn good. They are already way ahead of the game.

BinL, I don't think there is anything wrong with what you did, au contraire, although I agree it's not a popular stance here. I think it's one of the last and most important gifts one can give their child, assuming one can afford it, and assuming that child is not majoring in basket-weaving.

We are all a product of our own experience.

ETA: I can also totally see BiMetal's point, to some extent, not completely. But, it depends on the masters. As others have said, if she stays in the sciences, it should not be as costly to go to grad school.

[happytraveler]

I would only add that I think once DD has made it through college, any further education will most likey be on her dime. I suppose that like many parents, we will send her the occassional gift (e.g. a check) and in that regard help her along, but at a certain point, I think the responsibility for finanicig her endeavors should fall primarily on her shoulders. While I have set aside money to pay for college, my resources are not infinite, and I don't think it does her any long term favors by paying her way when she is a 25 year old grad student (or whatever).

[zibazinski]

What's the cutoff age for being able to get financial aid on your own?

[debtheaven]

Happy that is how DH and I feel too. (DH, not my ex).

This said, you can also be a grad student at 21.

[debtheaven]

Zib I am not sure but I think it is 25.

[debtheaven]

I think that you sound extremely level-headed, prudent, generous and wise, and that your DD, with your help, will have a great and affordable education.

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 11, 2011 18:17:49 GMT -5 @debtheaven said:

If your DD has to go onto grad school, you need to financially plan for that as well plus her undergrad school may be more important.

I disagree with this. Personally if I could I'd rather pay for my kids' undergrad and then expect them to pay for grad school. I'd help them if I could but I would not / do not feel feel the same way about paying for grad school. (Not to say that grad school is not important, not at all.) Only that if they graduate college with no school loans, that's pretty darn good. They are already way ahead of the game.

BinL, I don't think there is anything wrong with what you did, au contraire, although I agree it's not a popular stance here. I think it's one of the last and most important gifts one can give their child, assuming one can afford it, and assuming that child is not majoring in basket-weaving.

We are all a product of our own experience.

ETA: I can also totally see BiMetal's point, to some extent, not completely. But, it depends on the masters. As others have said, if she stays in the sciences, it should not be as costly to go to grad school.

It's only when these discussions come up that I am glad I am in Europe LOL. My ex and / or his parents gave DS1 and DS2 a "free ride" for both their Bachelors and their Masters. DS1 is finished and is working, and is serious and productive and doing extremely well in his field, although he is in a field that does not pay as much as his dad / grandparents would have liked. There's that too: sometimes when people pay for another person's education, they feel like they should have a say in what they do. DS1 is a humanitarian aid worker, he's doing incredibly well with just six months on the job, he's been promoted twice already. But that field doesn't exactly bring in the big bucks, plus it's fraught with danger. DS2 is doing his MBA, my ex / his grandparents definitely approve of that.

I have to admit, I am in awe of you people who can pay for private university in the US. Maybe if I had stayed there I would have been earning enough too, but at this point in my life, where I live, it would be a pipe dream. DD starts college in September, I have to admit we were very relieved that she prefers to live at home and commute. We opted for private college for her. It's expensive for here, but cheap by US standards.

DEBT H...
You do bring up a great point.. If you may .. Some of my friend went to school in Europe and I did look at Medical School over their before I went to Pharmacy school in Austin. The earning power I had was over 30% more then a PhD in Biochemistry and the school was paid for by the Foundation. Loved the School and City. The UT Pharmacy school is ranked #1 or #2 all the time.

It was all about leverage.. Leverage of Education and other assets that made it worth the time.

Just a thought,
Bi Metal Au Pt

[debtheaven]

BiMetal, the problem with degrees in the medical professions is that they are rarely transferable between Europe and North America. But certainly if a poster is European or is married to a European, sending a child to Europe for college (depending on the child's level of maturity, and on what they are studying) can be a really good deal financially.

Those days are gone, but DS1 (the one with the MPA) got his undergrad degree from Oxbridge for exactly 1500 USD in tuition fees per year. Now THAT was a screaming deal LOL! It tripled the following year, and alas, it is tripling again starting next year. We thought we were "set" for college for all our kids, but because of that, we are not. (We are guessing that DS3, our youngest, 12, will also go to college in the UK.)

ETA: BiMetal I always enjoy talking to you but I do not want to take this thread off-course.

[happytraveler]

Jan 11, 2011 19:08:41 GMT -5 @debtheaven said:

BiMetal, the problem with degrees in the medical professions is that they are rarely transferable between Europe and North America.

Can I ask why you say this? I know a number of German and British born and trained physicians who practice medicine in the United States. I've never asked, but assumed that their training is comparable to what one would get here in the US, given that they all seem to successfully established here.

[debtheaven]

HappyTraveler, it really depends on whatever laws are in effect at the time. As an expat, trust me that a lot of laws change over time. Their training is definitely up-to-par, that is not the issue.

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 11, 2011 19:08:41 GMT -5 @debtheaven said:

BiMetal, the problem with degrees in the medical professions is that they are rarely transferable between Europe and North America. But certainly if a poster is European or is married to a European, sending a child to Europe for college (depending on the child's level of maturity, and on what they are studying) can be a really good deal financially.

Those days are gone, but DS1 (the one with the MPA) got his undergrad degree from Oxbridge for exactly 1500 USD in tuition fees per year. Now THAT was a screaming deal LOL! It tripled the following year, and alas, it is tripling again starting next year. We thought we were "set" for college for all our kids, but because of that, we are not. (We are guessing that DS3, our youngest, 12, will also go to college in the UK.)
Debt heaven;
I see your point about MD. In fact I was talking PhD as My grandfathers next door neighbour had from ETH. I had been a MS in Medical Microbiology and worked for Clayton RI in Austin on grant from CDC. I was infection disease certified Microbiologist III at the time with CDC. ..

As before you can do the graduate work in Science but the pay will not pay the bills in London or Paris. I worked at it as long as I could before I ran out of money. My point is you have to have some backing from family to do the work esp in the larger cities like New York or London. I would love to return to Rockefeller University or Albert Einstein COM.

If you stop and save there may not be time to finish in five years.
Just a thought on Grad School vs Pharmacy School
Bi metal Au Pt









ETA: BiMetal I always enjoy talking to you but I do not want to take this thread off-course.

[suziq38]

Not to throw another consideration in the mix, but what state are you in?
We're in California, and the state colleges are a "mess" right now.

My friends sons are good students and can't get classes.

It is taking 6 years for a 4 year degree.

[suziq38]

Our two kids went to a 4-year state school with a good reputation 400 miles away.
We paid about $20K a year for tuition room, and board. They provided their own spending money.
The 4 years cost us about $20K a year for 4 years.

They really liked and enjoyed their school and they are doing well. No student loans whatsoever for the undergrad degrees.

[happytraveler]

Jan 12, 2011 0:11:37 GMT -5 suziq38 said:

Not to throw another consideration in the mix, but what state are you in?
We're in California, and the state colleges are a "mess" right now.

My friends sons are good students and can't get classes.

It is taking 6 years for a 4 year degree.

Our state schools are likely more "stable" than than the UC and CSU systems right now, though you certainly have a much, much larger system, greater breadth of options, and most certainly a better academic reputation than the schools here in our home state. I have always assumed that my daughter would get through school in 4 years, but you raise a reasonable point. Either for academic or administrative reasons, I guess she might take more than 4 years to muddle through school. While I have not given it much thought beyond your post, I think my psoition would basically be that, abscent any extraordinary circumstances, I would be paying for 4 years of school. Once we get beyond that, the burden of paying for school would fall to her.

[happytraveler]

Jan 12, 2011 0:14:54 GMT -5 suziq38 said:

Our two kids went to a 4-year state school with a good reputation 400 miles away.
We paid about $20K a year for tuition room, and board. They provided their own spending money.
The 4 years cost us about $20K a year for 4 years.

They really liked and enjoyed their school and they are doing well. No student loans whatsoever for the undergrad degrees.

From my original post:

State University: $26,096
Private Univsersity: $121,752
Liberal Arts College: $100,828


As you can see, our state university is ridiculously inexpensive. The costs above represent tuition and room/board for four years less the value of her scholarships extended to her. Its hard (though not impossible) to justify spending 5x the State School cost to send her to the private university (where she currently wants to go). Frankly, its probably cheaper to send her away to college than have her live with us for another four years

[zibazinski]

If she attends the state school, she is going to live at home? I must have misunderstood this. Well, then it seems pretty clear. She goes to the state school on your nickel, that's have been my vote anyway, because the more expensive schools CAN be worth it in a few instances only (one of which is matching aid so that your out of pocket cost would be the same) but in most instances, are not worth the extra cash. If she is determined to go the more expensive route, then she is of age and can apply for loans that you can co-sign or not. I wouldn't but that's me.

[Gardening Grandma]

When my oldest graduated from high school, he had a B average and his teachers consistently told me that he was not working to his capacity.
I told him: "You can live at home and go to the nearest community college. Free room and board and I'll buy you a bus pass. I'll also pay tuition and books. You'll need to get a part time job for your personal spending. After two years, we'll re-evaluate and see how you've done. If you've worked hard, then I'll do whatever I have to to help you with the remainder".

He insisted that he wanted to go to a 4 yr college several hours drive away. I agreed to pay tuition and books. He took out a loan for the rest (room/board). He dropped out without finishing the first year. Fortunately I signed nothing so was not on the hook for the loan.

[zibazinski]

Some guys are just not ready for college. I wish I'd have held mine back for a year somewhere because he struggled his freshman year and almost lost his free tuition. He'd have been better off going to JC for a year or two but then would have never gotten into the great 4 year that he did. So you just never know how to leap. OP's DD sounds ready for college but needs help understanding about finances and the best bang for someone else's buck. My DD is totally immature about money and I am so glad that I only have a few months left to even be aware of how she spends it. But she does fine in school. DS was good with money but immature. DD isn't good with money but mature. It is what it is.

[happytraveler]

Jan 12, 2011 9:13:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

If she attends the state school, she is going to live at home?

No--she would be living away from home; on campus. With her scholarship offer, and in-state tuition, going to our public university is an amazing bargain.

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 11, 2011 23:08:34 GMT -5 bimetalaupt said:

Jan 11, 2011 19:08:41 GMT -5 @debtheaven said:

BiMetal, the problem with degrees in the medical professions is that they are rarely transferable between Europe and North America. But certainly if a poster is European or is married to a European, sending a child to Europe for college (depending on the child's level of maturity, and on what they are studying) can be a really good deal financially.

Those days are gone, but DS1 (the one with the MPA) got his undergrad degree from Oxbridge for exactly 1500 USD in tuition fees per year. Now THAT was a screaming deal LOL! It tripled the following year, and alas, it is tripling again starting next year. We thought we were "set" for college for all our kids, but because of that, we are not. (We are guessing that DS3, our youngest, 12, will also go to college in the UK.)
Debt heaven;
I see your point about MD. In fact I was talking PhD as My grandfathers next door neighbour had from ETH. I had been a MS in Medical Microbiology and worked for Clayton RI in Austin on grant from CDC. I was infection disease certified Microbiologist III at the time with CDC. ..

As before you can do the graduate work in Science but the pay will not pay the bills in London or Paris. I worked at it as long as I could before I ran out of money. My point is you have to have some backing from family to do the work esp in the larger cities like New York or London. I would love to return to Rockefeller University or Albert Einstein COM.

If you stop and save there may not be time to finish in five years.
Just a thought on Grad School vs Pharmacy School
Bi metal Au Pt


Back to the Subject of cost study and learning. . If you go to a public school like a lot of small universities they will let you add classes you want from the school you want.. You can do what I did and spend summer time at that university or study in Europe. Be sure to get it approved first. Many schools at Oxford and other English schools have very good programs. Also they have a Tutor system that is second to none..

I think New College at Oxford is best.. Have the best beer and formal dining.

Just a thought,
Bi Metal Au Pt