djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 0:20:37 GMT -5
Actually, I'd suggest that a fair percentage of people intentionally listen-to/watch networks which generally opine contrary to their own ideology. For example, note how many posters here who might be called liberal post quoted things from Fox? Same is true about posters who might be called conservative posting things quoted from the NY Times. No, I think that people cross ideological lines in accessing the media. Not everybody by any stretch, but many. something like 80% of all FOX viewers identify as conservative these days. it is shocking. that number is up from 50% (10) years ago.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 0:22:57 GMT -5
Is the word "socialist" a pejorative? The problem, as I see it, is that most immediately think of communism when they hear the word. i am not sure that "think" is even part of it. what do white folks think when they say "n_____"? not much, really. it is more of a "feel thing".
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Aug 1, 2011 8:05:12 GMT -5
AH so that's the objection to mandatory insurance. It redistributes wealth to private companies. ....... Personally,I think the "everyone in the US has healthcare,just use the emergency room" plan is more wealth redistributive than Obamas.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 8:25:31 GMT -5
I lived in a communist country, where everybody suffers. Now I live in what you would consider a socialist country, where nobody suffers. We pool our resources to create vast safety nets...everybody pays in, everybody benefits. The notion that it removes incentive to work is absurd. If that's what you call being a socialist, I'm proud to be one.
weltschmerz so I guess the obvious question to ask (because of your history) is if you were there when communism started in your country? I'm not asking if you were taught about it in school but if you were actually there when it started & how it started?
Most here think that socialism (& maybe communism, I don't know) starts by having someone give a speech telling that they are going to take everything from you & give you 40% of what you earn. When people hear that they (of course) rush to the voting booths to vote for that form of government (because who doesn't want to have that happen).
Others think that it is a slow process (unless you have a revolution) where small foothold are gained (like social programs) which are then expended on (more social programs) & it slowly progresses away from our present form of government. That's what I believe is happening.
I would point out that socialism (especially European socialism) is a lot different than communism (I have never called what we are progressing to as communism btw). I would also point out that what you see might be a great improvement on what you left but then you were probably educated into thinking that that form of social engineering was great or at least exceptable. That might effect your perspective somewhat.
Our country was founded on the believe that the individual is responsible for their own destiny, not that society is responsible for the individual's destiny.
Lastly I would ask about a statement you made. Are you saying that workers in a communist country produce the same amount as workers in non communist countries? I ask because that is not what I have heard.
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Aug 1, 2011 10:01:51 GMT -5
It is not a pejorative, anymore than calling the sky blue. The word embodies a economic system that is not successful, in practice, today. It is a system whose theories are popular in discourse, as long as the truth of their origin is not spoken. Like calling a tax increase a "revenue enhancement" our politicians often mask Socialism as "equality" or "justus". We would all like Socialism, if it worked, we all like the promises it makes, as long as we call the theory something else.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Aug 1, 2011 10:23:12 GMT -5
[/size] OK. If you say so. In my interactions with eastern Europeans I've been told that although most are happier and more hopeful today than they were under communism, many missed the security provided by the communists. So it's a mixed blessing. A Romanian told me that capitalism wasn't so good when you're unemployed, that, under the old government everyone was guaranteed a job. The problem with someone like weltschmer is that her perspective is that of a serf. She was accustomed to complete control and is enjoying the relative freedom provided by her new country while Americans have been accustomed to more freedom than anywhere else and many resent the loss of those freedoms which are being traded away for the security of socialist policies. America didn't used to be for the faint-hearted, but serf minded immigrants miss the security of their homeland ~ also, of course, the welfare population has already adopted the socialist agenda. What a lot of Americans are concerned about is that the US has been at the forefront of individual liberties so that if it fails there will be no light of freedom to be emulated. The typical "socialist" considers American exceptionalism a fantasy. The US didn't get to the head of the line by imitating Europeans.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 10:34:06 GMT -5
It is not a pejorative, anymore than calling the sky blue. The word embodies a economic system that is not successful, in practice, today. It is a system whose theories are popular in discourse, as long as the truth of their origin is not spoken. Like calling a tax increase a "revenue enhancement" our politicians often mask Socialism as "equality" or "justus". We would all like Socialism, if it worked, we all like the promises it makes, as long as we call the theory something else. true. i guess i should have said is it USED as a pejorative?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 10:35:10 GMT -5
[/size] OK. If you say so. In my interactions with eastern Europeans I've been told that although most are happier and more hopeful today than they were under communism, many missed the security provided by the communists. So it's a mixed blessing. A Romanian told me that capitalism wasn't so good when you're unemployed, that, under the old government everyone was guaranteed a job. The problem with someone like weltschmer is that her perspective is that of a serf. She was accustomed to complete control and is enjoying the relative freedom provided by her new country while Americans have been accustomed to more freedom than anywhere else and many resent the loss of those freedoms which are being traded away for the security of socialist policies. America didn't used to be for the faint-hearted, but serf minded immigrants miss the security of their homeland ~ also, of course, the welfare population has already adopted the socialist agenda. What a lot of Americans are concerned about is that the US has been at the forefront of individual liberties so that if it fails there will be no light of freedom to be emulated. The typical "socialist" considers American exceptionalism a fantasy. The US didn't get to the head of the line by imitating Europeans.[/quote] actually, that is precisely what we did. most notably the French.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Aug 1, 2011 10:53:28 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. [see: Alexis de Tocqueville]
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 10:59:59 GMT -5
Can't we all just get along? Let's do a compromise. Liberals, Progressives & Democrats can promise never to use the word "S" word. Conservatives, Republicans, & Tea Party members (& for the 1 person on here that doesn't believe the Tea Party is a Party we can call them Tea Party People) will only use it when we are talking about Socialist. How does that sound? Republicans, Socialist are we in agreement?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 11:30:30 GMT -5
"weltschmerz so I guess the obvious question to ask (because of your history) is if you were there when communism started in your country? I'm not asking if you were taught about it in school but if you were actually there when it started & how it started?"
Oldtex, no, I was born in Canada, but went to live in Russia, while it was still under the soviet regime. It was a terrible, scary place.
"I would also point out that what you see might be a great improvement on what you left but then you were probably educated into thinking that that form of social engineering was great or at least exceptable. That might effect your perspective somewhat."
No, I don't think so. I also lived in the USA for 5 years. It was a terrible culture shock. I have never seen such crime and poverty in my life. I recently had friends visit here from the US. (People I met from the boards, actually). When I told them what I pay in taxes, they were horrified, and said it was way too much. When I told them what these taxes pay for, they said it was a bargain. Healthcare for all. Really affordable post-secondary education. My niece graduated recently from a top-notch medical school. It cost the family $17,000 for the whole thing. Paid maternity leave for a year. Really cheap daycare, so mothers and fathers can afford to go back to work. Affordable nursing homes. A lot of people here scream about robbing Peter to pay Paul...it reminds me of Scrooge screaming at orphans to buy their own damn goose, while holding on to his money with a death grip. We don't look it it like that. If higher taxes is the price of admission to live in a happy, low-crime, healthy, well-educated country, where everybody has a dignified basic standard of living, it's a deal.
"Are you saying that workers in a communist country produce the same amount as workers in non communist countries? I ask because that is not what I have heard. "
"No, I'm saying that living in a "socialist" country like Canada doesn't reduce the incentive to work. Like I said, there's a basic, DECENT standard of living for everyone. If you work harder, you can become very, very rich. Is it perfect? Of course not, but I'll take it. I like living in a city of 3.6 million, where I don't even have to lock my doors. We don't have the grinding poverty and ghettoes of the USA.
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Post by magichat on Aug 1, 2011 11:39:17 GMT -5
Weltschmerz, preaching about living in such a great country while ignroning the stifling immigration control Canada has versus the US is fact cherry picking.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 11:51:19 GMT -5
I never understood why you have such a problem with immigration control. If you have enough money to police the entire world, surely you can built a fence to keep the rampant flow of unwanted immigrants out.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 11:51:51 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. [see: Alexis de Tocqueville] Jefferson was not only highly influenced by the revolution in France, but by the writings of Rousseau. and, of course, he was influenced by a number of British writers and thinkers as well. to simply say that America was born of whole cloth, or that we are God's chosen people is supremely arrogant.
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Post by magichat on Aug 1, 2011 11:56:11 GMT -5
I never understood why you have such a problem with immigration control. If you have enough money to police the entire world, surely you can built a fence to keep the rampant flow of unwanted immigrants out. Not even accounting for illegal immigration, I still have a point. Immigration has caused issues, yes, but it is also what makes the US great. But don't ignore it and then proclaim Canada is great and all we have to do is raise taxes and we could be great too.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 1, 2011 11:56:52 GMT -5
I never understood why you have such a problem with immigration control. If you have enough money to police the entire world, surely you can built a fence to keep the rampant flow of unwanted immigrants out. ...lol... ...and define "unwanted"
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Post by ed1066 on Aug 1, 2011 11:57:30 GMT -5
Is the word "socialist" a pejorative? The problem, as I see it, is that most immediately think of communism when they hear the word. i am not sure that "think" is even part of it. what do white folks think when they say "n_____"? not much, really. it is more of a "feel thing". I hear that word far more frequently from black people. What are they thinking?
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Post by ed1066 on Aug 1, 2011 12:00:01 GMT -5
It's ok dj, apparently, all your liberal friends like being called "butt-buddies", so you still have that... i don't have too many liberal friends. and none of them are gay. so far as i know, anyway. But that isn't a gay term, see my thread on the subject. The libs vehemently explained to me that they call their straight male and female friends butt-buddies and it's all hunky-dory. So, dj, you're a butt-buddy whether you like it or not...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 12:02:27 GMT -5
Can't we all just get along? Let's do a compromise. Liberals, Progressives & Democrats can promise never to use the word "S" word. Conservatives, Republicans, & Tea Party members (& for the 1 person on here that doesn't believe the Tea Party is a Party we can call them Tea Party People) will only use it when we are talking about Socialist. How does that sound? Republicans, Socialist are we in agreement? LOL! i think a lot of people have gotten me wrong here. i am not whining about people using "socialist" as a pejoriative. in fact, if you see the post that originated this, it was MINE. i was not actually bringing anyone down for using it as a pejorative- i was questioning whether i had it right or not in thinking that it WAS being used that way. i think it is kind of funny, if it is, but entirely understandable given our history.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 12:02:30 GMT -5
"Immigration has caused issues, yes, but it is also what makes the US great. But don't ignore it and then proclaim Canada is great and all we have to do is raise taxes and we could be great too. "
Are you saying that we don't have immigration? We have lots of immigration, so what is it that you're trying to say?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 12:04:46 GMT -5
"...and define "unwanted"
People who pour in by the millions and contribute nothing, just suck the system dry.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 12:05:04 GMT -5
i don't have too many liberal friends. and none of them are gay. so far as i know, anyway. But that isn't a gay term, see my thread on the subject. The libs vehemently explained to me that they call their straight male and female friends butt-buddies and it's all hunky-dory. So, dj, you're a butt-buddy whether you like it or not... not following the logic here, given that i have never heard the term before.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 12:05:39 GMT -5
Build a fence and here's a handy little word. Deportation.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 12:05:56 GMT -5
i am not sure that "think" is even part of it. what do white folks think when they say "n_____"? not much, really. it is more of a "feel thing". I hear that word far more frequently from black people. What are they thinking? who knows? maybe they are following Lenny Bruce's advice.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 1, 2011 12:08:25 GMT -5
AH so that's the objection to mandatory insurance. It redistributes wealth to private companies. ....... yeah, i can't tell you how much that pisses me off.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 1, 2011 12:08:44 GMT -5
Build a fence and here's a handy little word. Deportation. ...a fence is within our control... deportation is not... therein lies the rub...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 12:16:18 GMT -5
"The problem with someone like weltschmer is that her perspective is that of a serf. She was accustomed to complete control and is enjoying the relative freedom provided by her new country while Americans have been accustomed to more freedom than anywhere else and many resent the loss of those freedoms which are being traded away for the security of socialist policies. America didn't used to be for the faint-hearted, but serf minded immigrants miss the security of their homeland ~ also, of course, the welfare population has already adopted the socialist agenda."
ROTFLMAO!!! Serf mentality, my ass. I was born and bred right here.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2011 12:16:59 GMT -5
Nice try, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 12:36:21 GMT -5
ROTFLMAO!!! Serf mentality, my ass. I was born and bred right here.
Could you then explain the comunist country you grew up in or lived in etc.?
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Post by magichat on Aug 1, 2011 12:39:01 GMT -5
"Immigration has caused issues, yes, but it is also what makes the US great. But don't ignore it and then proclaim Canada is great and all we have to do is raise taxes and we could be great too. " Are you saying that we don't have immigration? We have lots of immigration, so what is it that you're trying to say? Legal immigration is more closely controlled in Canada than it is in the US.
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