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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 1:08:43 GMT -5
...because, imo, Congress passes and repeals "obligations" all the time... and the old adage of "paying our bills" doesn't discount the option to "undo some contracts" before a bill comes due... Congress doesn't pass or repeal obligations, Congress pass spending bills which if signed into law obligate the US. You don't repeal obligations, you retire them by paying them off. The same way you can't tell your electric company that you choose to no longer pay your bill. The battle being waged right now should be fought around the budget, not around legislation to pay our bills. On a side note I was very surprised tonight to hear Boehner refer to Cut, Cap and Balance as bi-partisan legislation when only 5 democrats voted for it. More surprising is the fact that 2 republican candidates for president voted against CC&B. ...you can cancel a utility or service... as can Congress... and the "budget battle" involves options such as these... correct?
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 26, 2011 9:44:06 GMT -5
Congress doesn't pass or repeal obligations, Congress pass spending bills which if signed into law obligate the US. You don't repeal obligations, you retire them by paying them off. The same way you can't tell your electric company that you choose to no longer pay your bill. The battle being waged right now should be fought around the budget, not around legislation to pay our bills. . You turn your A/C down or turn off some of your appliances so that you reduce your electric bill.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 10:09:17 GMT -5
...you can cancel a utility or service... as can Congress... and the "budget battle" involves options such as these... correct? You turn your A/C down or turn off some of your appliances so that you reduce your electric bill.
Do you two really not understand the difference between the budget, which outlines what we WILL spend, and the debt ceiling, which concerns paying for what has already been budgeted AND spent? You can cancel a utility BUT you still have to pay the bill for service already used. You can turn your A/C down but that does not reduce the amount you already owe. Budget = what we WILL spend; Debt Ceiling = pay for what has been spent.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 26, 2011 10:17:29 GMT -5
...you can cancel a utility or service... as can Congress... and the "budget battle" involves options such as these... correct? You turn your A/C down or turn off some of your appliances so that you reduce your electric bill.Do you two really not understand the difference between the budget, which outlines what we WILL spend, and the debt ceiling, which concerns paying for what has already been budgeted AND spent? You can cancel a utility BUT you still have to pay the bill for service already used. You can turn your A/C down but that does not reduce the amount you already owe. Budget = what we WILL spend; Debt Ceiling = pay for what has been spent. The debt ceiling is the amount that Congress has authorized the Treasury to borrow, we have reached that limit. We are now in negotiations on how to reduce spending in exchange for raising the debt ceiling. Congress needs to make concrete immediate reductions, just saying we will reduce spending by 65 trillion over 10 years means nothing, since there will be a new congress and they can do what they want. That is at the heart of why Government borrowing is immoral, you are putting tax burdens on future tax payers who did not vote for the representatives who authorized the borrowing of the money, it is in many regards taxation without representation.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2011 11:10:54 GMT -5
or out, yes. but until they do, they are on the hook. to fail to make it possible to honor their obligations is an abrogation (?) of constitutional duty. forgive me if i got that word wrong. ...then Congress failed to make it possible to honor said obligations by not pre-funding stuff, which, arguably, could be considered an abrogation of constitutional duty, correct? not really. because the debt ceiling is not a constitutional instrument, and deficits are not against constitutional law.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 12:36:32 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2011 12:49:12 GMT -5
...you can cancel a utility or service... as can Congress... and the "budget battle" involves options such as these... correct? You turn your A/C down or turn off some of your appliances so that you reduce your electric bill.Do you two really not understand the difference between the budget, which outlines what we WILL spend, and the debt ceiling, which concerns paying for what has already been budgeted AND spent? You can cancel a utility BUT you still have to pay the bill for service already used. You can turn your A/C down but that does not reduce the amount you already owe. Budget = what we WILL spend; Debt Ceiling = pay for what has been spent. The debt ceiling is the amount that Congress has authorized the Treasury to borrow, we have reached that limit. We are now in negotiations on how to reduce spending in exchange for raising the debt ceiling. Congress needs to make concrete immediate reductions, just saying we will reduce spending by 65 trillion over 10 years means nothing, since there will be a new congress and they can do what they want. That is at the heart of why Government borrowing is immoral, you are putting tax burdens on future tax payers who did not vote for the representatives who authorized the borrowing of the money, it is in many regards taxation without representation. i disagree that we have taxation without representation. we have the best democracy money can buy. however, i agree that the deficit is a tax on the future. it is how the GOP rolls. the Democrats like to tax now. the GOP taxes the future. so there is a time bomb out there, that will blow up the government. that is because we are selfish as a people. we will spend now, and then let our grandkids pay for it. people don't like it when they hear that, but it is true. it wouldn't be so galling if we were spending the money on them. but we aren't. we are spending it on Afghanistan, and other fruitless enterprises. it is like mortgaging your house to buy crack.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 14:45:00 GMT -5
The debt ceiling is the amount that Congress has authorized the Treasury to borrow, we have reached that limit.
To pay debts already incurred. We sold bonds, those bonds come due, we have to pay them. We have salaries, pensions, SS payments, medicare payments that were specified in the 2011 budget, now military and government employees need to be paid, military and government pension checks need to be cut, SS checks need to be cut, these are all items that were budgeted and now are owed. If we don't we default on what we owe, absolutely no different than if you decide you don't want to pay your mortgage this month. You already signed the papers, the bank gave you the money, now you either pay it back OR you default on the loan and kill your credit rating. If the country fails to pay what it owes, the country goes into default and gets slammed by the ratings bureaus. Next month when our 'revenues/taxes' don't cover what is due we will have to pay WAY more than we did this month BECAUSE we defaulted and borrowing (selling bonds) will cost a lot more at our new lower credit rating. All the spending cuts that are being discussed will have no effect on what we will owe on August 2nd.
We are now in negotiations on how to reduce spending in exchange for raising the debt ceiling.
No, as a nation we are now sitting on the side lines watching a bunch of idiots play politics with the nation's credit rating. Because we don't collect enough revenue or taxes (depending on which party you belong to) we have to borrow 40 cents on each dollar that goes out. Once our credit rating is hosed, we will have to pay a higher interest rate on the 40 cents we borrow, meaning what is costing us 40 cents today may cost us 41 or 42 cents after we default. That 1-2 cents is a HUGE amount of money which will get us nothing more that we have now, billions of dollars just so the party faithful can say that their party didn't compromise. (how stupid is that?)
Congress needs to make concrete immediate reductions
No, Congress needs to raise the debt limit and pay what we owe, THEN they need to work on a budget which spends what then country needs spent AND raises sufficient revenue/taxes to cover that spend. How many people do you know who have taken out a mortgage, home equity loan, car load and then went to their employer and asked to work less hours cutting their income. Probably none BUT that's what the country has done. We set a budget, sent our troops off to multiple wars AND then cut everyones taxes for 10+ years. The situation we are now in is the result.
That is at the heart of why Government borrowing is immoral, you are putting tax burdens on future tax payers who did not vote for the representatives who authorized the borrowing of the money
Agree, but the right solution isn't always to cut spending. There are some things, like a strong defense, that most of us want. Spending is OK when it benefits the country or our country's future. People need to be responsible and want to pay for those things which means paying taxes/raising revenue.
it is in many regards taxation without representation.
More like crappy representation afraid to present us with the bill we've already run up. They might not get reelected when they do but they should have thought about that when they created the budget. Now with the budget in place, money spent, it's time to raise the debt ceiling authorizing the payment of our bills.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Jul 26, 2011 14:55:05 GMT -5
That is at the heart of why Government borrowing is immoral, you are putting tax burdens on future tax payers who did not vote for the representatives who authorized the borrowing of the moneyAgree, but the right solution isn't always to cut spending. There are some things, like a strong defense, that most of us want. Spending is OK when it benefits the country or our country's future. People need to be responsible and want to pay for those things which means paying taxes/raising revenue. "... the right solution isn't always to cut spending" Always??? How can something that almost NEVER happens be described as ALWAYS? Geez.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 15:51:23 GMT -5
>>> ... payments that were specified in the 2011 budget, ... <<< ...we had a budget?!?
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 26, 2011 16:22:38 GMT -5
>>> ... payments that were specified in the 2011 budget, ... <<< ...we had a budget?!? Last budget that passed Congress was on April 29th 2009.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 16:25:21 GMT -5
>>> ... payments that were specified in the 2011 budget, ... <<< ...we had a budget?!? Last budget that passed Congress was on April 29th 2009. ...nor was it balanced... so they've had a freaking road map to the debt ceiling in hand for all this time, and did diddly squat... ...is that how one spells, "diddly"? ETA: ...and yes, I'm ticked off at D.C. of the 00s, 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s, and 30s, too... I give a little more leeway to the 40s' and 50s' guys, though... [waving flag]
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 19:05:39 GMT -5
Last budget that passed Congress was on April 29th 2009.
Try April 15th 2011.
Always???
How can something that almost NEVER happens be described as ALWAYS?
Google how they passed the 2011 budget. Had to keep promising cuts, did you guys sleep through the first 4 months of 2011? Better question, when was the last time we raised income taxes? That's the other way to cut the deficit.
...we had a budget?!?
Still do, although the next one is due on September 30th, any bets on whether or not we'll see one pass before next April?
so they've had a freaking road map to the debt ceiling in hand for all this time
Reid had the opportunity to push the debt ceiling through in December but the idiot decided to wait until all the republican freshman came to town. Maybe he thought it would be more fun if more idiots were involved.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 26, 2011 19:38:19 GMT -5
I stand corrected.
I thought it was just another continuing resolution that was standard for the time frame.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Jul 26, 2011 19:45:37 GMT -5
Always???
How can something that almost NEVER happens be described as ALWAYS?Google how they passed the 2011 budget. Had to keep promising cuts, did you guys sleep through the first 4 months of 2011? Better question, when was the last time we raised income taxes? That's the other way to cut the deficit. One meager example of "promising cuts". Then the fully expected tangent to avoid the issue. I expect a post soon to call reductions of the standard rate of spending increases a spending cut. That was the Democrat fiscal voodoo for several sessions of Congress. Sigh.
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Post by b2r on Jul 26, 2011 20:00:26 GMT -5
Harry Reid in '06: Raising debt limit last thing we should do, ...
Everything old is new again!
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 20:09:50 GMT -5
...as I understand it, we've been "continuing resolutioning" ourselves for a couple years... somebody have a link that says otherwise?
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 22:41:30 GMT -5
One meager example of "promising cuts". Then the fully expected tangent to avoid the issue.Yea what's $40 billion in spending cuts (especially when realistically they add up to about half a billion) when you've just approved over $858 billion in revenue cuts. But for some reason you think the revenue cuts aren't the problem...hmmm. The total discretionary budget less defense, which we know pubs won't cut, is lower than the last round of tax cuts. Face it, pubs don't really want to close the deficit, they want to close public schools, planned parenthood and public broadcasting. as I understand it, we've been "continuing resolutioning" ourselves for a couple years... somebody have a link that says otherwise?The 2011 budget was enacted on April 15, 2011, as Public Law 112-10. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_federal_budget
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 0:05:01 GMT -5
...wiki is the best we can do? ETA: ...granted, I'll check into our latest approved budget...
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 6:04:05 GMT -5
...wiki is the best we can do? ETA: ...granted, I'll check into our latest approved budget... Zip is correct in April 2011 a budget was passed for 6 months of this year, so Congress went from April '09 to April '11 with no budget just continuing resolutions with a budget that was passed for 6 months, now Congress is fighting over the 2012 budget, which should pass before September if Congress is to actually stay on schedule.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 27, 2011 13:59:56 GMT -5
...wiki is the best we can do? ETA: ...granted, I'll check into our latest approved budget... Wiki generally has footnotes. avail yourself to them.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 15:28:50 GMT -5
...wiki is the best we can do? ETA: ...granted, I'll check into our latest approved budget... Wiki generally has footnotes. avail yourself to them. ...um, didn't I post that I would be checking? there's no need to be snarky for entertainment value in the thread...
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 27, 2011 23:36:16 GMT -5
Congress is fighting over the 2012 budget, which should pass before September if Congress is to actually stay on schedule.
That's the part that doesn't make sense. Instead of downgrading our credit, defaulting on our debts and throwing the markets into the unknown, why don't they just raise the debt ceiling and center this fight around the budget where it belongs.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 27, 2011 23:39:23 GMT -5
Congress is fighting over the 2012 budget, which should pass before September if Congress is to actually stay on schedule. That's the part that doesn't make sense. Instead of downgrading our credit, defaulting on our debts and throwing the markets into the unknown, why don't they just raise the debt ceiling and center this fight around the budget where it belongs. Because congress won't do anything unless they have no other choice.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2011 11:28:29 GMT -5
Wiki generally has footnotes. avail yourself to them. ...um, didn't I post that I would be checking? there's no need to be snarky for entertainment value in the thread... i don't do snarky. i was just suggesting that the footnotes at Wiki are better than Wiki itself.
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