...please explain Greece...

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...please explain Greece... like I'm a 4yo...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Riot police fired tear gas at youths hurling rocks near the Greek finance ministry Tuesday, trying to quell the anger unleashed by a general strike as parliament debated new cost-cutting measures.

www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-06-28-greece-strike-financial-crisis_n.htm

[Value Buy]

What is to explain?
This will be Washington DC with President Obamas, circa, 2019

[cme1201]

BTDT:

The governemnt of greece wrote a bunch of bills causing an extreme money wound, from that wound they have bled money for years, now that they are facing default and wish to borrow money to help keep it's debts paid, the lending countries would like to see some type of actual plan for dealing with the burdensom debt before they consider loaning more money to Greece.

The people of greece feel that they didn't borrow the money (even though the money was used to create the wonderful programs they enjoy) so they are rioting over the fact that they have a 16% UE rate, that government is expecting everyone from minimum wage workers to eleite rich to pay more in taxes, and deep spending cuts.

2 lines in the article really sums it up 1. Government official

"These measures will take us from running budget deficits to achieving primary surpluses," he said. "It's a difficult but necessary step."

2. Random Citizen

"We don't owe any money, it's the others who stole it," said 69-year-old demonstrator Antonis Vrahas. "We're resisting for a better society for the sake of our children and grandchildren."

Sound familiar?

[Value Buy]

Saw on the news this morning, an unemployed women being interviewed who does not think wage cuts and tax increases are fair.

The thing that really hit me, was, the working class consists of only five million citizens in Athens (or Greece, don't know which)
This is really a very small group. How could a country build this much debt on so few working bodies?

And, can anyone see the same correlation is developing here in the USA today?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...this caught my eye, too...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greek government austerity measures

The measures have been somewhat unpopular with many voters The Greek parliament is debating the latest set of austerity measures, which it needs to pass to qualify for another payment under the bail-out from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.

The five-year plan was changed last week to allow for more money to be raised through tax increases and less money to be saved through spending cuts.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13940431


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...I could certainly see being miffed at proposing less spending cuts and more taxation... but what am I missing?

[Deleted]

But does Team Obama pay attention to this, our future?? Of course not.

[vonnie6200]

Jun 28, 2011 16:52:27 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

But does Team Obama pay attention to this, our future?? Of course not.

or does he care?

[Deleted]

No. It is the plan. Must not interfere with the plan.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Greek lawmakers endorse austerity despite violence
Reuters Canada - 5 Hours ago

By ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's parliament approved deeply unpopular austerity measures despite worsening street violence on Wednesday, in a vote vital to secure international aid and prevent the euro zone's first sovereign debt default.

Lawmakers passed a five-year package of spending cuts, tax rises and state asset sales by a comfortable margin of 155 votes to 138 in a roll-call vote, handing a victory to embattled Prime Minister George Papandreou.

"We must avoid the country's collapse at all costs. Now is not the time to step back," the Socialist premier told lawmakers just before the vote.

ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE75R23T20110629

[thyme4change]

One of the problems that Greece has had was that it was tied to the Euro and so their own currency couldn't flex in the exchange market due to their decreasing credit worthiness. When this has happened in other countries in the past, they go through a whole host of BS and then end up revaluating. Greece did a lot of things wrong, and we are doing some of the same things, but we will probably be able to keep it together long enough to turn over a few key lawmakers and then we can try and swing the pendulum back. The key to being able to keep it together depends on the fed's ability to play around with our currency, which Greece doesn't have.

[bubblyandblue]

Wait until those assets start getting vandalized by the people, wait to see the privatized parking meter rates go up and the super glue go in. Their is no pressure relief valve in the streets of Greece. The people realize that they are being robbed of their common wealth and history. Human history has shown that Tyranny begets violence - Freedom usurped by the gamblers in money does not dodge them the label of Tyranny - May the Greek people prevail in the name of freedom and the casting off of Tyranny.

[bubblyandblue]

With a little tweeking of the words of the The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America - a couple of substitutions like the King of England for the EU currency formula and such. I think we shall see a new/old constitution emerge in Greece. That would be good in my view.

[maui1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Inv....-its-books.aspx

some of the above article.......
Creative Greek accounting has a long history. In 1999, when Greece first applied for membership in the eurozone, it got turned down. Its budget deficit was way too large, and the country didn't have a chance in Hades of getting it down to the 3% maximum allowed under the rules of the European Monetary Union.

It was a different story when Greece applied again in 2001 and sailed into membership. What led to the amazing turnaround? Simple. Greece cheated.

The Greek government admitted it in 2004. (One of the advantages of the constant rotation of governments in Greece is that each party makes a practice of revealing all the dirty laundry of the previous opposition government when it takes office.)

In November 2004, Finance Minister George Alogoskoufis admitted that the budget figures the country had used to gain admission to the euro club were fudged. "It has been proven that the deficit had not fallen below 3% in every year since 1999," he told reporters.

Greek financial daily Naftemborikieven reported the exact size of the lie. From 1997 to 1999, the years that the European Union examined to determine whether Greece had met the 3% deficit maximum, the Greek budget deficit was 6.44%, 4.13% and 3.38%. (Given what we know now, you're entitled to take even those figures with a grain of salt.)

At that time, Greece was looking at a 5% budget deficit -- and rising as the country added cost after cost for the Summer Olympics. Data filed with the European Union showed that the country had exceeded the 3% budget deficit maximum every year since 2000.

And the reaction from the EU? As best as I can judge, a collective shrug. It was a done deal. European Commission spokesman Gerassimos Thomas said: "Greece's admission to the eurozone was done on the basis of the convergence report which was established at the time and on the basis of figures and the statistical methodology applied at that time. It wasn't in question at that time."

At this time, I'll bet there are more than a few officials and politicians in Brussels, Berlin and Paris who wish that decision hadn't been allowed to stand at that time.

There isn't something in the air or water in Athens that makes Greek governments especially prone to cheating on accounting. The Greek governments might have had more motivation than most, but, for any politician, the rewards from cheating on the national accounts far outweigh the benefits of telling the truth.

On the one hand, cheating allows a politician to deliver goodies (jobs, subsidies, loans, rising real-estate prices) without paying for them, and on the other hand, a politician can sleep well at night knowing the country is on a sound financial footing. That's usually not even a vaguely hard choice.

[Deleted]

Very scary, looking at it from where we are right now.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 15:33:42 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

Very scary, looking at it from where we are right now.

...as for scary, here's something posted earlier in MT:

Jun 29, 2011 15:26:05 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

In case it hasn't already been posted in this thread, a list of what the Greeks actually approved (assuming they can ratify it before their capitol burns down): www.philstockworld.com/2011/06/28/breakdown-of-greek-austerity-measures-2/

The ones that jump out at me are:

• The VAT rate for restaurants and bars will rise to 23% from 13%.
• The tax-free threshold for income tax will be lowered from 12,000 to 8,000 euros ($11,500 USD and falling)
• Excise taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by one third.
• Nominal public sector wages will be cut by 15%.
• Wages of employees of state-owned enterprises will be cut by 30% and there will be a cap on wages and bonuses.
• All temporary contracts for public sector workers will be terminated.
• Only one in 10 civil servants retiring this year will be replaced and only one in 5 in coming years.
• Education spending will be cut by closing or merging 1,976 schools.
• Selling stakes this year in the betting monopoly OPAP, the lender Hellenic Postbank, port operators Piraeus Port and Thessaloniki Port as well as Thessaloniki Water.
• Selling 10% of Hellenic Telecom to Deutsche Telekom for about 400m euros.
• Next year, the government plans to sell stakes in Athens Water, refiner Hellenic Petroleum, electricity utility PPC, lender ATEbank as well as ports, airports, motorway concessions, state land and mining rights.

And this is just to kick the can down by the road for another year.

Welcome to a taste of things to come.

[cme1201]

On the posted cuts, only one jumps out at me as bad, education spending reductions, everything else makes sense. Imagine what they are going to have to do next year to get the next 17b installment.

[Virgil Showlion]

cme, just to clarify: if you click on the link in the quote, it gives you the full list. The ones I excerpted are about a third of the total.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 16:04:26 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

On the posted cuts, only one jumps out at me as bad, education spending reductions, everything else makes sense. Imagine what they are going to have to do next year to get the next 17b installment.

...exactly... but I'm not sure why reducing education spending is "bad" in this case?

[cme1201]

Jun 29, 2011 16:13:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

cme, just to clarify: if you click on the link in the quote, it gives you the full list. The ones I excerpted are about a third of the total.

I will virgil, right now just looking at what you posted. Kids are building an electromagnet so getting into the article isn't possible.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 16:13:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

cme, just to clarify: if you click on the link in the quote, it gives you the full list. The ones I excerpted are about a third of the total.

...fwiw, it's a nce list... hence why I borrowed it...

[cme1201]

Jun 29, 2011 16:13:31 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Jun 29, 2011 16:04:26 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

On the posted cuts, only one jumps out at me as bad, education spending reductions, everything else makes sense. Imagine what they are going to have to do next year to get the next 17b installment.

...exactly... but I'm not sure why reducing education spending is "bad" in this case?

Without knowing exactly how many schools they will have open, closing just shy of 2000 schools can have an impact on students.

We just shut down our county commissioners and city council on wanting to spend 2.5m on a new school (would be our third built in as many years). We needed to add 1 wing to a school (6 classrooms) 187,00$, where they got the idea we need a new school to hold 650 students made zero sense and we told them in very clear terms.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 16:18:51 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Jun 29, 2011 16:13:31 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

...exactly... but I'm not sure why reducing education spending is "bad" in this case?

Without knowing exactly how many schools they will have open, closing just shy of 2000 schools can have an impact on students.

We just shut down our county commissioners and city council on wanting to spend 2.5m on a new school (would be our third built in as many years). We needed to add 1 wing to a school (6 classrooms) 187,00$, where they got the idea we need a new school to hold 650 students made zero sense and we told them in very clear terms.

...good job on the council...

...as to impact on students, yes... there will be an impact on students... one way or another... why not impact them on our own terms?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 20:50:49 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

Here is an article from Bloomberg this morning:

www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-28/greek-vote-obscures-the-european-union-s-unsavory-choices-view.html
Greek Vote Obscures Europe’s Unsavory Choices: View
The Greek government is poised to push through Parliament an austerity package needed to avert a default on billions of euros in government debt. Success, though, will only postpone an unsavory choice that the euro area’s leaders will face sooner or later: Let Greece go and put both the European experiment and the global economy at risk, or forge a deeper union in the face of opposition from their voters.
The Greek crisis has become a defining moment in a project that traces back to the 1950s, when a small group of politicians started what would eventually be known as the European Union. Their aim was to form such strong political and economic ties that the horrors of World War II could never happen again.
Now that experiment hangs in the balance. Germans are seething over having to help what they view as Greek freeloaders. Greece’s trade unions are striking, and citizens are rioting over measures that will increase taxes, reduce pensions and slash incomes. Markets are gyrating amid fears that the conflict between Europe’s core and periphery will lead to financial disaster.
The wrangling in the Greek parliament over the $112 billion (78 billion euro) austerity package, and European officials’ efforts to bring private creditors into a new bailout, obscures the magnitude of Greece’s problems. The government simply can’t pay its debts, now more than 150 percent of gross domestic product.
Three Decades
Even if Greece gets its bailout and its economy rebounds, the government would have to run a budget surplus, excluding debt-service costs, of 5 percent of GDP for about three decades to bring down debt to the 60 percent maximum allowed by euro- area rules. Achieving such a fiscal feat for even five years is extremely rare for any government, let alone Greece’s.
The Greeks, of course, bear the main responsibility for their predicament. They effectively lied their way into the euro, presenting deficit figures that were wildly understated. The country consumed far more than it earned and borrowed to make up the difference. Tax evasion is a national sport.
Greece’s foibles, though, would not have led to a crisis without the help of Germany and France. They set the precedent when, for three years beginning in 2002, they exceeded the prescribed budget-deficit limits with impunity.
Leading Role
What’s more, France and Germany played the leading role in setting capital rules that encouraged German and French banks to finance Greece’s profligacy, and then required too little equity to absorb the potential losses. Because of lax oversight of derivatives markets, regulators now have little idea where the losses will turn up if Greece reneges on its debts.
There are two ways the responsible parties can rectify their mistakes. One is to recognize that Greece should never have joined the euro. If it can’t or won’t swallow austerity measures, let it leave and default on its debts.
But the risks of allowing Greece to fail are similar to what the U.S. faced with the 2008 Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. bankruptcy. Uncertainty about losses would very likely undermine confidence in European banks and in the governments that would have to bail them out. If Greece’s failure led to a credit freeze, that would threaten banks with insolvency and cause losses for institutions that hold those banks’ debts, including the money-market mutual funds entrusted with $2.7 trillion in U.S. savings.
Financial Mayhem
It’s easy to picture an outcome in which credit-starved companies started firing workers, economies headed back toward recession and governments’ own parlous finances prevented officials from stepping in to restore confidence. The financial mayhem would put pressure on Portugal and Ireland -- and possibly also Belgium, Italy and Spain -- to follow Greece into default and out of the euro, splitting Europe along economic fault lines.
The alternative path is only slightly less ugly and unfair. It would require the euro area, led by Germany and France, to assume much of Greece’s $495 billion (345 billion euros) in debt indefinitely and be prepared to take on the debts of Portugal and Ireland as well. The Greeks, for their part, would have to suffer deep wage and benefit cuts to restore their country’s competitiveness.
To help make such adjustments bearable, euro-area nations would have to provide money to support social-safety nets, most likely through a unified finance ministry that many voters would consider a loss of sovereignty.
Even if Europe’s leaders managed to overcome the political obstacles, there’s no guarantee that a deeper union would solve the immediate crisis. Taking on the debts of strapped governments would push up borrowing costs for major European economies. That could prove painful for countries with large debt burdens -- particularly Italy, where government debt exceeds 100 percent of GDP.
Risky as it may be, taking responsibility for Greece’s problems is the least bad option for Europe. This is no longer about saving Greece. This is about self-preservation.

...I borrowed this from a YM thread...

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=finance&action=display&thread=10678

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 30, 2011 8:22:37 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

The same thing will happen is already happening here.

...fixed...

[Phoenix84]

"And, can anyone see the same correlation is developing here in the USA today?"

I can, I can't see why anyone would be a liberal. The evidence is right there for all to see. Our fate will be like greece in 10-20 years unless we get our spending under control. Need more evidence? Just look at how bad things are in states that have been run by democrats for many years. It's unfathomonable that there's so much evidence of failure but people keep voting in liberals and thinking "they'll do it better." It's a failed experiment. Benjimen Franklin knew once the people could vote themselves money it was game over for this great social experiment called democracy.

[Bluerobin]

They spent too much. They got the credit card bill and now they are not happy.

[maui1]

If you set people up for lives of govt dependence, you wind up destroying the ability of people to provide for themselves.


the above was about greece, but apply it to all life, to get a clearer picture.

when we, as humans, try an save a wild animal from danger and place it in a protective environment, the most imperative concern, is not to make the wild animal dependent on humans for survival, so that it can be released back into the wild when it is determined to able to provide for itself.

the above is very basic, and known to everyone but, some how forgotten when it is applied to human/gov't interaction.

[bubblyandblue]

"If you set people up for lives of govt dependence, you wind up destroying the ability of people to provide for themselves."
How do you set em up? and how many are we talking about? and how much does this cost? Hope you are not talking about social security - that was paid out of peoples checks! Were some of these lazy bastards cheated out of their savings? Were these folks highjacked when they were kids? Have these folks never contributed to our nation? What do we do with them - they must be usless - do we hide them for vanaties sake?

[maui1]

i didn't get it either...........and thanks for the 'atta boy'

back at you for the good insight.