The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 20, 2017 14:10:46 GMT -5
Dear life,
Down for a while, but not out. I'm back bitches!
Signed - The Captain
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 29, 2015 14:59:03 GMT -5
Ok peeps. I'm gonna kinda hide in here and say sorry for being offline for awhile. Most who PM'd me hang out here, or I'm tagging like taz157, alwaysbeoptimizing, and Tired Tess. Long story short - I was supposed to go out of town for a quick 3 day business trip. Wound up having a "very brittle" asthma attack and ended up spending 5 hellish days in an out of town hospital trying to remember how to breath. Another week "recouping" at the hotel (Dr wouldn't clear me to fly yet) then flew home to another 2 weeks of very restricted work duties. During which time I had two staff people resign. Right before year end. Yea me. So I had to bring in some temps and screen resumes and...yeah. Stuff. Honestly didn't have any energy for anything but work so I just got done what I needed to do and dragged my sorry butt straight to bed when I got home most nights. Year end close is going to be a major bitch so I will be on sporadically for awhile, but wanted to let everyone know I'm good and really appreciate the inquiries. And to those who have sick family or are dealing with this crap themselves, you sincerely have my best wishes.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 29, 2015 10:47:25 GMT -5
woof = nope
meow = yep
litter = done
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 14:18:33 GMT -5
(Puts fingers in ears)
lalalalalalalalalalalala
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 14:11:41 GMT -5
Don't know, but the way I'm getting pounded on another thread I could use a break right now. Geeze, it's been, like - damn over 6 months!
(Think I'm holding my own btw).
When you need to seriously chill, what is your go to ______?
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 14:08:20 GMT -5
What? Playing the game? It took me awhile to figure out that the people getting advanced were not necessarily the smartest or best workers. They were the ones who knew how to sell themselves, make themselves valuable to their employer, and took risks that got them noticed. (Remember, I'm in accounting and it is less about who you know apparently than other fields). I'm not going to bother linking studies because this has been discussed before in other threads, but women in general are more collaborative which men in general are more individually competitive. One set of characteristics get's you noticed and promoted, the other doesn't. (Now if you don't believe men and women think differently then all of my observations are faulty and my theories are bullshit - but I'm speaking in generalities I've been taught in adult psych and what I've seen in educational and business research studies - YMMV). I'm not making any judgements as to if this is right or wrong, just my observation that is the environment that I must understand in order to advance. Personally I think the sports analogies get old, but you can't join a team, refuse to learn how to play the game, and expect to get off the bench. Then this should not just be a man vs. woman thing. This is about having the capacity to observe and understand your surroundings in order to survive and thrive. Agreed but I needed to come to this realization that this is how things work. In general, to a guy who wanted to get ahead, I think it would have been more intuitive. Maybe not. I've was taught my whole life to avoid conflict and be a team player. Sorry, that's not how you get ahead in business (at least in the current environment - like I've said - I hope this changes).
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 13:57:32 GMT -5
Actually I didn't start getting ahead until I learned how to play the game. Doing good work and going the extra mile isn't enough. Being one of the top performers wasn't enough unless I made sure management knew I was one of the top performers and was willing to take risks/bigger projects. They weren't going to come to me, I had to go for it myself. These were things I observed those getting the promotions were doing (almost all men) as opposed to those who were great workers, but...stuck. Men and women. Even now, I don't play the game as well as some do. I don't want to. This is as far as I want to go, so I'm leaning back a bit and not looking for the next promotion. Yea, for the first time in my career I'm not focusing on what I need to do to get the next promotion. I'm honestly focusing on what I can do to reduce my/my functions' hours. I'd eventually like to go to 4 days and I'm trying to figure out how I can make that happen. What exactly does it mean? What? Playing the game? It took me awhile to figure out that the people getting advanced were not necessarily the smartest or best workers. They were the ones who knew how to sell themselves, make themselves valuable to their employer, and took risks that got them noticed. (Remember, I'm in accounting and it is less about who you know apparently than other fields). I'm not going to bother linking studies because this has been discussed before in other threads, but women in general are more collaborative which men in general are more individually competitive. One set of characteristics get's you noticed and promoted, the other doesn't. (Now if you don't believe men and women think differently then all of my observations are faulty and my theories are bullshit - but I'm speaking in generalities I've been taught in adult psych and what I've seen in educational and business research studies - YMMV). I'm not making any judgements as to if this is right or wrong, just my observation that is the environment that I must understand in order to advance. Personally I think the sports analogies get old, but you can't join a team, refuse to learn how to play the game, and expect to get off the bench.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 13:42:51 GMT -5
But why is that true? The woman on this thread are saying that women want to work as much, travel as much and miss out on as much with their kids as the men do. The only reason women don't get ahead is because of sexism, not because they put their children above their careers.
That is not what I am saying. I am saying that there are a lot of women that don't chose a work/life balance and are more than qualified for positions of power. More than enough to fill quotas given. Virgil and Politically Incorrect and The Captain and yourself are saying that there are not enough hard working, qualified women to fill the positions.
There you go misattributing something to me again. Cite me saying that or just admit you're bullshitting and trying to stir the pot. Archie's analogy was actually more spot on. Lots of talented people out there, but if you have one bad day or make one mistake or miss one practice there will be someone who did better ready to take your place on the Olympic team. One of those talented people was my first mentor, the lady who promoted me to supervisor. She was better than I was, but left our profession once her husband passed his specialty boards. I don't miss the irony of that, in this discussion. There are less than 100 people in my segment who have my role. Of that 100, 2 (including me) are women (at least at the last time I was surveyed two years ago). There are 1,000's of people in my industry who work in my specialty. It's so incredibly hard and competitive to get my position that it would have been very easy for the company to give it to a man. The fact that they hired a woman is an argument more against bias than for it (at least in my current case). I am one of two women here is a sea of rich old(er) white dudes. You do anything, and I mean anything, to make yourself less competitive then it's only fair that someone who didn't, advances before you. So instead of acknowledging this, we say it's not fair, and gender and gender alone is what holds women back. I say that's nonsense and we are doing ourselves and our daughters a huge disservice by making those claims. Yea, it may be harder - but in my field, trust me, you are not going to get my role just because you know someone. There's far too much risk to the company for them to do that. You have to know what you're doing and be able to demonstrate that you can take positions and hold your own against those who may disagree with you. I am not the smartest bear in the woods (and have said that many times as well) but I've done everything I can to stay in the race and have worked harder for it than the majority. I won't apologize for that and I won't allow anyone to minimize what I've accomplished by saying it should go to someone who didn't work as hard as I did. At least in my role, I can guarantee you the same would be said for anyone - man or woman.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 12:52:50 GMT -5
Don't you work for the government? I think what you experience is different than those of us in the private sector. I can say that the partners that I worked for in public accounting were all very bright and very hard working...that goes for both the men and the few women. There were instances where kids were hired out of school because of who they knew but they didn't last long if they weren't cut out for it. I do... but there are about 8 of us saying the same thing and I think the others are all in private industry. And unless I'm misunderstanding what Captain said, in your industry it took her 7-8 years longer to get where she was than she would have if she were a man -- even with "playing their game." So I don't think it's a government problem (at least, not solely a government problem). Actually I didn't start getting ahead until I learned how to play the game. Doing good work and going the extra mile isn't enough. Being one of the top performers wasn't enough unless I made sure management knew I was one of the top performers and was willing to take risks/bigger projects. They weren't going to come to me, I had to go for it myself. These were things I observed those getting the promotions were doing (almost all men) as opposed to those who were great workers, but...stuck. Men and women. Even now, I don't play the game as well as some do. I don't want to. This is as far as I want to go, so I'm leaning back a bit and not looking for the next promotion. Yea, for the first time in my career I'm not focusing on what I need to do to get the next promotion. I'm honestly focusing on what I can do to reduce my/my functions' hours. I'd eventually like to go to 4 days and I'm trying to figure out how I can make that happen.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 11:40:11 GMT -5
professionally... but is that the only real measure of success? No, good looks is also a measure Then I'm doomed
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 11:39:29 GMT -5
The Captain, I wasn't trying to insult you or any other person who had to do all those things to get ahead. I guess my issue is that being "mean" is necessary to get ahead. No, I'm not surprised. I just wish there was a way to reward people for doing a good job without them having to yell about the fact that they did a good job. I'm trying to think about what I did to get promoted. I mastered my position quickly, I trained new associates, I asked my boss for more responsibilities. I was also ready to leave after 3 years and she knew that. I don't remember being aggressive or cutthroat, but I also work with over 70% women. Our group VP is definitely cutthroat and aggressive, but the men in her position in other departments don't seem as scary as she is. I wonder why...? I have never been mean. Never backstabbed or done anything that I would be ashamed for my daughter to find out about. Honestly, being able to look myself in the mirror before I go to bed each night is still very important. Now I know this means nothing, because a lot of sociopaths are able to do the same but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I have become much more aggressive. No doubt. And I had to become much more comfortable with highlighting how my contributions made something as success,s as opposed to it being a "team win". Teams don't get promoted, individuals do. Does this make me a bit uncomfortable? Maybe - but I witnessed firsthand what happens when you don't assert yourself. However, I always give credit where it is due and take the blame when there is a fail in my function (the buck stops with me). I never throw anyone under the bus, even if they've earned it.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 11:32:07 GMT -5
Oh The Captain, I'm so sorry you are going through this. That truly sucks.
What is wrong with people who think this kind of behavior is o.k? And the lessons they are teaching their kids (and grandkids)?
I'm glad your other tenants are behaving themselves. Quite honestly? The lessons are that it's ok to steal from others that have more than you do, regardless of what you or they did to earn it.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 10:25:18 GMT -5
Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. And here, IMHO - is part of the issue. I don't consider ambition and hard work unsavory traits. In fact, I'm not sure why you would consider these unsavory. It's rather unfair to say you don't want to do what others are willing to do, to get ahead, then direct insults at them when they are successful because they are willing to do what you won't.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 9:55:54 GMT -5
On my floor we have male admins. No one thinks less of them (they actually do better work than the female admins). Both are being trained for better paying positions. One of the female admins is very bitter about this. But consider this, if you are going to invest your time in training someone will you do it for a strong producer who doesn't take a bunch of unplanned days off, or would you invest the time in the person who has to be micro-managed, often has to re-do work, and takes off without notice during critical times? It's not always about gender, but for some people that will be all they see. My profession is about 50-50 gender wise, yet women make up less than 5% of the top ranks (it's actually closer to about 1%) in my specialty. Yea, if I'd been a dude I'd probably have been at my current level about 7-8 years earlier. BUT, unlike a lot of my female peers, I didn't take time off for family, go on a work-life balanced schedule, ask for a lightened work load, or even wait for the promotions to come. I went and asked for the difficult projects, the hard assignments and pushed way outside my comfort zone. Women tend to be less aggressive then men, that also impacts how we get promoted. Is it businesses' fault if women don't sell themselves as aggressively, or take bigger risks to get that promotion? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I do know that if I weren't as aggressive as I am, I would not have the position I have today. You did all that and STILL had to wait 7-8 additional years.... Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 9:42:51 GMT -5
Amen. We're in the process of our first eviction. I'll let you know how that goes. How did it go?
And I haven't heard an update from Knee Deep in Water Chloe on the MF(*&^ing)H
(Takes deep calming breath). So I needed to send a retainer to the lawyer to start the eviction process. Ok, fine. Did so. When the check didn't clear for over three weeks I called and he claimed he never received my letter. So I send another one (about a week before the post office returns the first as undeliverable - yea the address was correct). The eviction notice needs to be served in person. The tenants dodge the server for close to a month. When they were finally served suddenly they can't speak English and refuse to sign the receipt. The server signs an affidavit stating the notice was served and the lawyer goes to set a court date (also required). Apparently things are a bit backed up because it takes 5 weeks to get a date. (All of this is second hand btw, it was super busy season and I couldn't take off work). So our lawyer shows up on our court date. Tenants show up with someone from legal aid. They claim they don't speak or read English (bullshit!) and didn't understand anything that was going on. Their lawyer tried to claim I was required to provide the lease in Spanish (no and the judge did correct him on this) and it was all a simple misunderstanding. Can they stay if they get caught up in rent over the next 4-5 months? Oh. Hell. No. (Already told my lawyer I wanted them out. Period) Judge doesn't really buy this and gives them 30 days to move out. In the meantime their lawyer immediately files for a stay because there are minors in the house (there aren't supposed to be, but they claim they have two grandchildren living in the house) and they need time to find a place within the school district. Judge gives them another 30 days and informs them the additional rent and legal costs will be added to their judgement (duh!). Like we'll ever see that. So now they have until the middle of December. Which doesn't really mean anything because the earliest we can get the actual physical evection scheduled with the Sherrif in sometime toward the end of January (at this point - we can't actually get it scheduled until the evection is finalized by the judge). Our laywer tells us to expect another extension request because the rental market is tight and yea, places with three bedrooms and decent rents are impossible to find. If it were just adults there would be no question of no additional extention, but the courts have an interest in keeping a roof over kids heads. And what kind of heartless bastard would put kids out on the street before Christmas, yadda, yadda, yadda. It didn't help our case that the tenants' lawyers found out we have a total of five rental units so we are supposedly "sophisticated commercial landlords" who should have done everything in our power to ensure the tenant understood the terms of the lease (ie - you're supposed to pay rent on time). I'm not sure if that's what was actually said, but apparently having more than one rental unit counts against you and gets the tenants more lienancy. So yea. And the city wonders why all the decent landlords are leaving. In the meantime the other 4 units are performing well. Even with one unit not performing we're cash flow positive close to $1K a month. That's building up my improvement fund so I can (hopefully) attract a better class of tennants. I don't ever want to hear another freaking word about evil landlords.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 17:41:12 GMT -5
en though I'm an "expert" in my field I still deal with self-doubt and fear all the time. I see that more with my female peer than I do with my male peers as well
And why is that? Why do women deal more with fear and self doubt when it comes to our careers? Is this a gender thing? I really don't know. But in general I see women voicing more fear and self doubt about a lot of things (am I harming my child by working, am I a good enough mother, am I really competent to do this job) while I don't see the guys in general posting similar thoughts.On the flip side are men REALLY better at managing self doubt/fear or are there underlying pressures making it more desirable as a man to be overconfident which comes with its own drawbacks? I think you are onto something here - men have higher risk tolerances than do women. Is this due to overconfidence on their part as opposed to reasonable risk assessment on the part of women? I don't know.It's not just women that butt up against gender biases in the workplace, men do as well. Both genders can benefit from the discussion. Agreed. I think both genders have general qualities that should be used to compliment each other in business. As it is now, I admit it's a man's game and if you want in you have to play by their rules. Is that any more right or wrong than saying we need to change how education/schooling is done so the advantage girls have is eliminated? I don't know the answer to that btw.A LOT of the things we percieve to be true about women AND men stem from the Victorian era when it was in the best interest of those in charge to get people to accept certain biases. Some really shitty science was done to back up those claims. Science is way ahead of society as a whole when it comes to busting a lot of the gender biases we hold as truth. Society is slowly coming around but those in charge still cling to old biases, it's going to be awhile before they die out completely. My comments and questions are in italics above.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 15:53:20 GMT -5
I was about 5 months preggers with DD. Went with DH and some friends to a roller coaster event but due to my "condition" wasn't going to ride any of the rides.
So I sat and people watched while our group went on the rides. DH came to check on me and I told him how much I enjoyed the park, clean, beautiful gardens, nice family atmosphere. "Look honey" I said, "They even hire senior citizens to help out" pointing to an older woman who was walking around with a little sweeper getting microscopic specks of debris up.
My husband looks at the lady I'm pointing to, does a double take and laughs! "Honey", he says, "That's not a senior citizen, that's the owner!".
Truth - old school I'm not going to ask anyone to do work I'm not willing to do myself - family owned park.
NOW what is the oddest thing you've ever observed at a work outing?
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 15:46:22 GMT -5
Last night - an awesome white bean and kale stoup with diced tomatoes and whole wheat orzo pasta.
Tonight - quickie chicken noodle soup.
Tomorrow - no idea yet.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 14:49:57 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this. Do I wish I didn't have to miss as much of DD's milestones as I did? Of course! But DH and I decided that I had more earning potential so it made sense for him to be the primary caregiver and me to focus more on my career. The family as a whole benefited from that decision. I doubt the discussion would even have taken place if our genders were reversed. Maybe a question is why don't more women insist that their partners take on more of the childbearing load? Because I acknowledge that my husband is exceptional in this regard based on what I see from my friends and peers. I've admitted many times that I could not have done what I did, if he didn't contribute what he did. As far as splitting the job, in my role final sign-offs (risk) is with one person so no, that part can't be split. Can the workload be lessened? Of course, but why would business want to pay two salaries, and benefits for two employees to entice minorities/women when they can get one person to do it? Business wants to attract and retain talent. Business is not going to pay more than market rate to have a talent pool that meets certain demographics. Now if we want to have a discussion about business changing to meet changing needs of future generations (millennials) I'm all for it. I think there is too much demanded and really do hope the next generation is able to change that.
That's a whole different discussion. How is the next generation going to change that? Will you say to your boss NOW that this workload is too much for one sane human and that it should change? Will you call millennials whiners when they say that to YOU as your underlings? After all, you did it, why can't they? Will the top person even care anyway? They don't want to pay more than they have to, right? Actually I'm working on that. In the time I've been in my role we've added headcount in my function and I'm very proactive in managing my staff's workload. Early in my career, I had periods during busy season where I worked 3 months straight without a day off. It was fairly common in fact. My staff doesn't do that, but we still have to do weekends every quarter to meet deadlines. There is only so much you can expand and contract headcount during the year. You will always have busy periods in the accounting/tax profession which is deadline driven. The top person right now is old school, and yes - he doesn't care. The one set to be his successor is different (he is the one to put the only two women in top roles after all) and I think we will have more success with quality of life discussions with him. Change doesn't happen overnight. I really DO hope that my DD can have a successful career and still be able to fully enjoy her family. I would wish the same for my son, if I had one. But change will only happen if we can prove it benefits the company more than it benefits the individual.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 14:34:46 GMT -5
You are posting truth, whether that truth is pretty or not. People who can't have a discussion about the way thing really are without getting all emotional and accusing others of hate and various other crap is part of the problem. Until we can sit down to the table and discuss things calmly without all the irrational bullshit, nothing is going to change. Dreams of change are great, but they are never going to become a reality unless we, as women, stop helping to perpetuate the notion that we are irrational, overly emotional beings who can't have a real discussion without getting crazy. I say "well done". You've posted what it takes, in your experience, to overcome the gender bias. If others have an issue with it, that's their problem. Yes. It took you awhile, but you did it. Change doesn't happen overnight.
No, she did not overcome the gender bias. Even doing everything her male counterparts did it still took 7-8 years longer to reach this point.
ETA - I also suspect that she is still below where she should be with her qualifications and experience. I suspect many of her male peers are higher ranking than she is.
See my post #77. Part (not all) of the reason it took me longer is tied into how men and women are in general wired differently. I had to overcome that in order to advance. It took me longer to figure out how to sell myself and be more aggressive in getting attention. Again, men are wired to succeed more in business, while women are wired to succeed more in the classroom. Now we could argue if that's the way it should be, and that's a whole different discussion. For now, to succeed in business you need to know how it operates, and work within existing parameters. As far as where I should be, in my profession I have gone as high as you can go. Honestly there's so few women in my role that if someone wanted to stalk me and out me they probably could figure out who I am in real life. To advance any higher I'd have to leave my specialty entirely, going far more outside my comfort zone than I'm willing to do (do we see a pattern here?). Or go to a much bigger company (shudder - who wants that?). Just being honest. I don't want that level of stress or exposure. Now I'm sure a lot of men make the same decision, but I can't help but think more men than women would decide to take the huge risk if the opportunity were offered to them. I almost didn't take the role I have now. Self-doubt, fear, lack of confidence all contributed to me almost declining (I know - doesn't sound like me, but it's the truth). It was a huge risk, a real stretch for me. Now many years later I'm rocking it and making constant improvements to a function that was deemed materially weak (accounting term - not a good thing) when I took on the role. And not a quarter goes by when I have my oh shit moment and wonder if I've managed to get everything right. I'm it, there is no safety net for me. So even though I'm an "expert" in my field I still deal with self-doubt and fear all the time. I see that more with my female peer than I do with my male peers as well (we bounce stuff off each other all the time). With a sample size of two I'm not sure if it's a gender thing or really is tied to the individual.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 13:41:59 GMT -5
This is why we only dress up as animals or fictional characters. thats' offensive to Cinderella. That's why I go as the witch!
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 13:38:59 GMT -5
This is why we only dress up as animals or fictional characters.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 13:31:38 GMT -5
Again, it's a load of shit. A sexist, patronizing, obnoxious load of shit. It is the same thing the captain is saying. Yep. But if you're a dude pointing out what you observe you're sexist. If you're a chick pointing out what you've observed you hate your gender. Wonder if anyone is going to call out MJ on her observation since she doesn't seem to attract the haters as much.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 13:26:27 GMT -5
No. In fact my statement was (because you must have read another poster's quote) at our yearly "state of the business" meeting, our CEO talked about how there aren't many women or minorities at the VP and higher level and that they wanted to address that. I'm certain that there are qualified female and minority individuals who would make great VP+'s. But when you factor in all of the extra hours and travel, the only people who will still be interested are people either with older kids or no kids. And the people with older kids had to have put in a shit load of hours just to get the results to make them look attractive for a VP+ position. Those people again are probably going to be people without families or people who were able to foist a lot of the childrearing load onto their partner. Can any of these VP+ positions be done by two people instead of one? Split the travel and the hours so that no one person is going insane and the job still gets done. simply wishing to address the imbalance is pointless unless the company is willing to change some long-held beliefs and practices. If you want to make positions more attractive to minorites/women, figure out what they'd want/need and see what you can do. Thank you for posting this. Do I wish I didn't have to miss as much of DD's milestones as I did? Of course! But DH and I decided that I had more earning potential so it made sense for him to be the primary caregiver and me to focus more on my career. The family as a whole benefited from that decision. I doubt the discussion would even have taken place if our genders were reversed. Maybe a question is why don't more women insist that their partners take on more of the childbearing load? Because I acknowledge that my husband is exceptional in this regard based on what I see from my friends and peers. I've admitted many times that I could not have done what I did, if he didn't contribute what he did. As far as splitting the job, in my role final sign-offs (risk) is with one person so no, that part can't be split. Can the workload be lessened? Of course, but why would business want to pay two salaries, and benefits for two employees to entice minorities/women when they can get one person to do it? Business wants to attract and retain talent. Business is not going to pay more than market rate to have a talent pool that meets certain demographics. Now if we want to have a discussion about business changing to meet changing needs of future generations (millennials) I'm all for it. I think there is too much demanded and really do hope the next generation is able to change that. That's a whole different discussion.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 12:58:40 GMT -5
On my floor we have male admins. No one thinks less of them (they actually do better work than the female admins). Both are being trained for better paying positions. One of the female admins is very bitter about this. But consider this, if you are going to invest your time in training someone will you do it for a strong producer who doesn't take a bunch of unplanned days off, or would you invest the time in the person who has to be micro-managed, often has to re-do work, and takes off without notice during critical times? It's not always about gender, but for some people that will be all they see. My profession is about 50-50 gender wise, yet women make up less than 5% of the top ranks (it's actually closer to about 1%) in my specialty. Yea, if I'd been a dude I'd probably have been at my current level about 7-8 years earlier. BUT, unlike a lot of my female peers, I didn't take time off for family, go on a work-life balanced schedule, ask for a lightened work load, or even wait for the promotions to come. I went and asked for the difficult projects, the hard assignments and pushed way outside my comfort zone. Women tend to be less aggressive then men, that also impacts how we get promoted. Is it businesses' fault if women don't sell themselves as aggressively, or take bigger risks to get that promotion? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I do know that if I weren't as aggressive as I am, I would not have the position I have today. What did those 7-8 years in earnings different cost you? That's okay based solely on your gender?!? Not to get "all emotional" on you, but does your daughter deserve to face that difference as well if she makes the same professional choices you do? Part of that 7-8 year difference was my own doing. It took me a long time to get comfortable with "selling" myself and making sure management knew I wanted the high risk projects and that I was good at my job. I actually went after my first high profile project after I was asked by my Partner why I wasn't putting my hat in the ring (didn't think I'd be considered). No, I didn't get that one, but I got the next one. Part of it was having those over me take credit for my work - yea not anymore. For too long I was 100% "team player" (which is more of a female trait) than "give me credit for what I've done". Is the above the "fault" of business? Is it really the "fault" of anyone? I don't think so but believe it needs to be recognized. The way men in general are wired, to some extent, makes them more successfull in business. We see the opposite in the classroom (where the female gender excells). And yes, I have no doubt I would have gotten a few promotions sooner had I been male. But I didn't let it stop me and I've achieved a rank few people make ever in their careers. So while there are some hurdles (both exterior and self-imposed) it's not impossible. As far as my daughter, she's smarter than me and unilke me she will have someone who functioned in business to coach her (if she wants) so I have no doubt she'll be fine if she wants to advance (OH here's another thing - maybe coaching by parents plays a role in career advancement - so I think it's a matter of a generation or two and the numbers will start going up as girls are coached more by their mothers). I just don't think it's reasonable to think you can expect similiar results from different inputs. If DD chooses to focus on family more than career I want her to be happy with that decision, instead of bitter that she didn't advance as much as she may have.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 12:36:45 GMT -5
I don't. I also don't resort to emotional all encompassing statements when something that I don't agree with is stated. I merely posted what I've observed during my career and you choose to turn it into an emotional attack. Kinda makes my point. You don't think claiming that you are the only hard working, dependable woman is an emotional, all encompassing statement? No. In fact my statement was (because you must have read another poster's quote) I didn't say I was the ONLY hard working, but I will say that my success as compared to others is due to the fact that I worked more projects, took more risks, and took less time off, and did better than my peers. Know something, I bet every man would say that is the reason for his success as well, compared to his peers, but he wouldn't be accused of hating his own gender. At one point half the women in my group at one employer were either on FMLA, fixed hours, or part-time. In the 4 years that I worked there we had one man take FMLA. One. As opposed to at least eight women who took FMLA (which again, is ok but let's be honest and admit that taking time off work is likely to impact your career). Look at the posters on these boards - we use the PC phrase SAHP, but the vast majority of the SAHP's that post here are women. Again, nothing wrong with it, but you're not going to be promoted in business if you're not employed. Workforce participation rates are lower for women, women are more likely to quite if they have a high earning spouse, women are more likely to take time off to care for family. All of which are fine, but can't be ignored when we look at why women in general aren't represented equally at top ranks.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 11:39:42 GMT -5
So if it's all women not being aggressive enough and not speaking up enough then how exactly does that explain the studies done where testers are put into a room and handed a resume with a man's generic white sounding name on it. Then they are given another resume a few minutes later where the only difference is the name has been changed to either a female name or a more ethnic sounding name. Consistently the salary offer decreases for the second resume and traits that were positive during the first half of the experiment become negative traits in the second half. They never meet the "candidates" they do not exist. The resumes are word for word the same the only thing that changes is the name at the top. So where is the bias coming from now that we can't use the excuse the female candidate simply didn't try hard enough? journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Abstract/2009/10000/Interventions_That_Affect_Gender_Bias_in_Hiring__A.36.aspxlink.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018839203698I'm not denying that some bias exists. All I can state is that in my profession (accounting) and my sub-specialty (taxes) more emphasis is placed on who can get the job done as opposed to the gender of the person doing it. In public accounting (inarguably the most driven and brutal segment of our profession) you start out at staff level with almost equal ratios. Then between the senior and manager level women take breaks to have children (say what you want, men taking FMLA is rare as opposed to women of child bearing age which is common and FMLA is available to both genders for the birth of a child). By the time most women make manager they have children. It's then that the requests start coming in to balance work/life (again - mostly from the women) and in a decent amount of cases, work part-time. Now there's nothing wrong with this, but don't blame business for women not getting promoted at the same rate as men. It's even more noticeable at the partner level. Now improvement has been made here (in big 4) where 20% of the partners are female. But when you wonder about the gender imbalance you have to consider other factors, like cutting back on hours. Lest anyone say one person's observation doesn't make it true, the attached study shows that around 80% of all part time employees in public are women, which - let's face it, means your career will not progress as far as someone who stayed full time their entire career. www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-accounting
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 11:23:02 GMT -5
BUT, unlike a lot of my female peers, Why do you hate women? I don't. I also don't resort to emotional all encompassing statements when something that I don't agree with is stated. I merely posted what I've observed during my career and you choose to turn it into an emotional attack. Kinda makes my point.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 11:08:28 GMT -5
On my floor we have male admins. No one thinks less of them (they actually do better work than the female admins). Both are being trained for better paying positions. One of the female admins is very bitter about this. But consider this, if you are going to invest your time in training someone will you do it for a strong producer who doesn't take a bunch of unplanned days off, or would you invest the time in the person who has to be micro-managed, often has to re-do work, and takes off without notice during critical times?
It's not always about gender, but for some people that will be all they see.
My profession is about 50-50 gender wise, yet women make up less than 5% of the top ranks (it's actually closer to about 1%) in my specialty. Yea, if I'd been a dude I'd probably have been at my current level about 7-8 years earlier. BUT, unlike a lot of my female peers, I didn't take time off for family, go on a work-life balanced schedule, ask for a lightened work load, or even wait for the promotions to come. I went and asked for the difficult projects, the hard assignments and pushed way outside my comfort zone.
Women tend to be less aggressive then men, that also impacts how we get promoted. Is it businesses' fault if women don't sell themselves as aggressively, or take bigger risks to get that promotion? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I do know that if I weren't as aggressive as I am, I would not have the position I have today.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 9, 2015 9:49:44 GMT -5
Wow! So sorry you're going though this.
Keep your chin up and take the high road (I know - seems odd coming from me). Don't sink to their level or let them get under your skin.
They can only irritate you if you give them the power to do so.
Simply reply back that "My family traditions are just as important to me as yours is to you, and so sorry if you don't understand that."
(Then form satisfying image of you bitchslapping every one of them).
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