deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 13:15:47 GMT -5
There was just a short segment on CNN today, just know actually, the "Your Money " segment, which brought up what happens when austerity is enforced in a big way, extreme measures..
Using Ireland, in fact Europe in general, while not against austerity, medium and long term, if done to extremes in the short form, using the Irish and all of Europe and including the UK too, it seems that debt has increased, Ireland unemployment has risen to 15 % and still climbing in the mind of financial experts, riots have broken out in Europe, and it is suggested the draconian methods put forth by some, European and Ireland specificall in affect now, see Tea Party in the US being suggested for USA, might not be the way.
It is suggested that austerity yes, but moderation, compromise in the short term might be the better way to go.
If not sure, then look to what IS happening in the before mentioned areas of the globe. They are not third world areas with their own problems but a model similar to our own in advancement, ideas of politically, education, social issues and similar in economics.
I suggest, even though there is a group here who will deride because of who he is, their feelings toward him just because, our present POTUS may be correct, compromise , austerity and savings yes, but extreme action in the short term, No.
Possible , IMHO, he has it correct and the other side , does not.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 13:52:32 GMT -5
Politicians always want us to starve while they continue to eat their $100lb steaks. If i hear "shared sacrifice" one more time, i am going to hurl all over the screen. No, i am not "sacrificing" for you. Sorry. i work to support and provide for my family, not for you who is too lazy to get up off the sofa and i am not going to spend my life working to support the govt. If it comes to that, i will quit working and get in the bread and cheese line too. There ya go snerd..you tell em.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 14:05:30 GMT -5
I am telling them. I am not going to work to fund the govt. Screw that. I got that but what does that have to do with my post as to the suggestion that extreme austerity in the short term, if you go by what is happening in developed areas of the globe , may not be the best solution, in the long term, possible a more moderate form of austerity in the short term, no one is saying all austerity is wrong , just extreme as is happeing in the areas I identified might not be the best way to do this. I got the fact , "your not going to work to...", but unles your going to be one that is getting benefits...again, your post doesn't compute as far as my post.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 14:12:18 GMT -5
I don't think many Americans have a real grasp of what an extreme austerity program would look like.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 14:30:28 GMT -5
Why should you understand? I guess for me it comes down to my belief that knowledge is better than ignorance. I fully understand this is not a universal belief.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 14:38:04 GMT -5
I am not going to work to support you. Period. Snerds, glad to tell you, your help is not needed in any way or form... However, there are some who really could use your help. The kids with those terrible illnesses, many in hospitals getting treatment or on the waiting ist as fuinds are raised for it. The widows of our fallen heroes, even with benefits , still need help Your neighbors thrown out of work and as hard as they look, still unable to find meaningful work so family, even though breadwinner is working, still needs some help, food stamps, medical when needed.. I can fill the whole page , so hope you won't forget them. Thanks, I knew I could count on you, much appreciated.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 14:39:29 GMT -5
No, why should i accept some "austere" lifestyle for the sake of the govt? Sorry, not gonna happen. Unless your current lifestyle is supported in a significant way by government programs, a governmental austerity program would not directly effect you. There would be ramifications that would roll through the national economy which might effect you anyway. There would also be effects that are less of an economic nature that you would see and they might, or might not, effect you also.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 14:39:41 GMT -5
I don't think many Americans have a real grasp of what an extreme austerity program would look like. Agree not a clue. As far as our friend..guess we can't count on him. Oh well, it takes all kinds, got a tune to sum it up Bilis?? ;D
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 14:46:34 GMT -5
I don't think many Americans have a real grasp of what an extreme austerity program would look like. Agree not a clue. As far as our friend..guess we can't count on him. Oh well, it takes all kinds, got a tune to sum it up Bilis?? ;D Leaning towards this one: What do you think?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 28, 2011 14:52:12 GMT -5
...fwiw, I have a problem with legislated austerity measures, just as I have a problem with legislated charity...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 14:57:17 GMT -5
...fwiw, I have a problem with legislated austerity measures, just as I have a problem with legislated charity... Could you please cite one example of a "legislated austerity measure"? I am not sure what you are saying here.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 15:09:55 GMT -5
Agree not a clue. As far as our friend..guess we can't count on him. Oh well, it takes all kinds, got a tune to sum it up Bilis?? ;D Leaning towards this one: What do you think? One of my favorites..played through almost perfectly, and appropriate. You good you are, sums it up pretty good, also noticed drowned out some yadding of no consequence of which was a added benefit, didn't count on that, so double godd selection. TY
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 15:13:34 GMT -5
You don't have to know. ... Another situation in which ignorance is bliss?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 15:15:43 GMT -5
Dead is dead. Is there something unclear about that?Yes, its significance to the current conversation.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 15:32:57 GMT -5
Okay, back to the title question.
The initial answer is that if you cut spending/increase income it decreases deficit/debt so by definition it "works". My thought is that long term it depends on the willingness/ability of a government to hold the line when the effects hit and reality sets in.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 28, 2011 15:34:19 GMT -5
...fwiw, I have a problem with legislated austerity measures, just as I have a problem with legislated charity... Could you please cite one example of a "legislated austerity measure"? I am not sure what you are saying here. ...imo, the direction of the thread brought to mind any austerity measure, such as rationing, or special levies and assessments for debt reduction... I wouldn't like that...
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 28, 2011 15:46:32 GMT -5
I am not going to work to support you. Period. Snerds, glad to tell you, your help is not needed in any way or form... However, there are some who really could use your help. The kids with those terrible illnesses, many in hospitals getting treatment or on the waiting ist as fuinds are raised for it. The widows of our fallen heroes, even with benefits , still need help Your neighbors thrown out of work and as hard as they look, still unable to find meaningful work so family, even though breadwinner is working, still needs some help, food stamps, medical when needed.. I can fill the whole page , so hope you won't forget them. Thanks, I knew I could count on you, much appreciated. We do not need a big federal government to address these issues however. Indeed, Big Daddy government often just worsens this. Look at the Great Society Program: literally TRILLIONS of dollars spend to INCREASE poverty and DESTROY the inner cities and families, especially black families. We need austerity because we simply have no other choice. We can not continue to spend about 40% more than the government takes in, especially when much of that money is used to disenfranchise people from the value of work and indepedence. When this money is used to create a vast maze of rules and a tax code that incentivize corporations to send jobs overseas and keep the profits overseas to avoid double taxation. The solution is certainly not higher taxation because no matter how much we give the government, it is NEVER enough! Federal income taxes, Social Security taxes (and the raiding of the Trust Fund), Medicare taxes, etc... and the government is STILL broke because it continues to grow! And then people scream bloody murder when we try to reign it in! Remember the last time we tried to cut? Some legislator claimed that 30,000 children would die if we passed a certain measure. Well, it turned out those kids were outside of the US in Africa as part of an anti-malaria program. Not our concern, not our issue, and most certainly not a responsibility granted to the federal government by the Constitution. "But Ameiko, what about the children?!?!" What about them? Children and adults, men and women, die every day. Where does it end? When is it enough? Must we save everyone even if, in the case of Africa, they will grow up to spawn the next generation of rioting, anti-America, thugs who will continue to outstrip their nation's ability to feed and protect them from malaria and the like? Then we will need to spend even more and proprogate the cycle. The madness must stop and it must stop NOW. We must balance our budget if only to stop losing money by paying on the interest. We can not raise taxes because: 1. as noted, it is never enough 2. these taxes are being used to support unconstitutional spending that only worsens the problem 3. we are taxed enough already 4. it will hurt the economy, even Obama has acknowledged that. No, we must stop the spending and stop now. More importantly, we must rid ourselves of the following delusion which the liberals have attempted to indoctrine us with: "If the federal government does not provide, it will not be provided at all."Nonsense. Keep the federal government within its stated consitutional parameters. Whatever it does not provide, either the states, local governments, charities, or private individuals will provide. What these entities will not provide, then it will not be and both life and the nation will go on even if some get left behind because, in the end, we can not save anyone. If you believe otherwise, that we have some duty to all, then give of yourself and persuade others to do so. Stop using the government to enforce your beliefs upon others; that is what has led the US and other nations to this point: the belief that the government can and most provide even if this is simply not possible.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 15:49:09 GMT -5
I wasn't going to go here but I guess I must. The term used in the title and OP, "austerity", is being used with a very specific meaning: Austerity From Wikipedia, For other uses, see Austerity (disambiguation). For the current widespread opposition to present-day austerity measures, see Anti-austerity protests. In economics, austerity is a policy of deficit-cutting, lower spending, and a reduction in the amount of benefits and public services provided.[1] Austerity policies are often used by governments to reduce their deficit spending[2] while sometimes coupled with increases in taxes to pay back creditors to reduce debt.[3] Austerity was named the word of the year by Merriam-Webster in 2010.[4] ... Reasons for taking austerity measures Austerity measures are typically taken if there is a perceived threat that government cannot honor its debt liabilities. Such a situation may arise if a government has borrowed in foreign currencies which they have no right to issue or they have been legally forbidden from issuing their own currency. In such a situation banks may lose trust in government's ability and/or willingness to pay and refuse to roll over existing debts or demand exorbitant interest rates. In such situations, inter-governmental institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) typically come in and demand austerity measures in exchange for functioning as a lender of last resort. When the IMF requires such a policy, the terms are known as 'IMF conditionalities'.
Typical effects Development projects, welfare, and other social spending are common programs that are targeted for cuts. Taxes, port and airport fees, and train and bus fares are common sources of increased user fees.
In many cases, austerity measures have been associated with short-term declines in standard of living until economic conditions improved and fiscal balance was achieved.[citation needed]
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 15:49:11 GMT -5
again the one who says basically in the modern vernaculer "Let them eat cake " still isn't addressing the title of the thread or the OP of mine which was a idea put forth on a identified national media outlet that extremes of austerity, in the short term, not the absence of austerity , extremes, is not the way to go, and useing what is happening in certain parts of the globe, countries very similer to ourselves in standing, developement , values as a example when drastric action in austerity is taken , not in the middle or long term view but immediate view.
If not willing to discuss this part, then possible the thread has run it's course and will drop to where ever uninteresting to the readers here go, and if so, so be it.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 28, 2011 16:07:07 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. Indeed, it will probably be better in the long term to get it out of the way now since the US is running out of time: China doesn't want to buy our debt nor do many other nations.
Unless the US government forces its citizens to buy US debt, such as mandating that a certain portion of retirement funds are placed in treasury bonds, what else can it do? It must stop borrowing and thus must stop spending. We can not tax ourselves out of this but instead go to austerity, do it now, and let the pieces fall.
If that means that some people literally starve to death or die from a lack of healthcare, it will be the needed sacrifice to save the nation. We can not continue subsidizing and encouraging parasites.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 28, 2011 16:20:25 GMT -5
Snerds, glad to tell you, your help is not needed in any way or form... However, there are some who really could use your help. The kids with those terrible illnesses, many in hospitals getting treatment or on the waiting ist as fuinds are raised for it. The widows of our fallen heroes, even with benefits , still need help Your neighbors thrown out of work and as hard as they look, still unable to find meaningful work so family, even though breadwinner is working, still needs some help, food stamps, medical when needed.. I can fill the whole page , so hope you won't forget them. Thanks, I knew I could count on you, much appreciated. We do not need a big federal government to address these issues however. Indeed, Big Daddy government often just worsens this. Look at the Great Society Program: literally TRILLIONS of dollars spend to INCREASE poverty and DESTROY the inner cities and families, especially black families. We need austerity because we simply have no other choice. We can not continue to spend about 40% more than the government takes in, especially when much of that money is used to disenfranchise people from the value of work and indepedence. When this money is used to create a vast maze of rules and a tax code that incentivize corporations to send jobs overseas and keep the profits overseas to avoid double taxation. The solution is certainly not higher taxation because no matter how much we give the government, it is NEVER enough! Federal income taxes, Social Security taxes (and the raiding of the Trust Fund), Medicare taxes, etc... and the government is STILL broke because it continues to grow! And then people scream bloody murder when we try to reign it in! Remember the last time we tried to cut? Some legislator claimed that 30,000 children would die if we passed a certain measure. Well, it turned out those kids were outside of the US in Africa as part of an anti-malaria program. Not our concern, not our issue, and most certainly not a responsibility granted to the federal government by the Constitution. "But Ameiko, what about the children?!?!" What about them? Children and adults, men and women, die every day. Where does it end? When is it enough? Must we save everyone even if, in the case of Africa, they will grow up to spawn the next generation of rioting, anti-America, thugs who will continue to outstrip their nation's ability to feed and protect them from malaria and the like? Then we will need to spend even more and proprogate the cycle. The madness must stop and it must stop NOW. We must balance our budget if only to stop losing money by paying on the interest. We can not raise taxes because: 1. as noted, it is never enough 2. these taxes are being used to support unconstitutional spending that only worsens the problem 3. we are taxed enough already 4. it will hurt the economy, even Obama has acknowledged that. No, we must stop the spending and stop now. More importantly, we must rid ourselves of the following delusion which the liberals have attempted to indoctrine us with: "If the federal government does not provide, it will not be provided at all."Nonsense. Keep the federal government within its stated consitutional parameters. Whatever it does not provide, either the states, local governments, charities, or private individuals will provide. What these entities will not provide, then it will not be and both life and the nation will go on even if some get left behind because, in the end, we can not save anyone. If you believe otherwise, that we have some duty to all, then give of yourself and persuade others to do so. Stop using the government to enforce your beliefs upon others; that is what has led the US and other nations to this point: the belief that the government can and most provide even if this is simply not possible.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 16:22:45 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. Indeed, it will probably be better in the long term to get it out of the way now since the US is running out of time: China doesn't want to buy our debt nor do many other nations. Unless the US government forces its citizens to buy US debt, such as mandating that a certain portion of retirement funds are placed in treasury bonds, what else can it do? It must stop borrowing and thus must stop spending. We can not tax ourselves out of this but instead go to austerity, do it now, and let the pieces fall. If that means that some people literally starve to death or die from a lack of healthcare, it will be the needed sacrifice to save the nation. We can not continue subsidizing and encouraging parasites. ameiko, I applaud you for a clearly stated view. Too many make the claim that we need to make the cuts but that it won't actually be painful. Until we are honest about the ramifications, we can't move forward.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 28, 2011 16:26:21 GMT -5
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 28, 2011 16:27:48 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. Indeed, it will probably be better in the long term to get it out of the way now since the US is running out of time: China doesn't want to buy our debt nor do many other nations. Unless the US government forces its citizens to buy US debt, such as mandating that a certain portion of retirement funds are placed in treasury bonds, what else can it do? It must stop borrowing and thus must stop spending. We can not tax ourselves out of this but instead go to austerity, do it now, and let the pieces fall. If that means that some people literally starve to death or die from a lack of healthcare, it will be the needed sacrifice to save the nation. We can not continue subsidizing and encouraging parasites. ameiko, I applaud you for a clearly stated view. Too many make the claim that we need to make the cuts but that it won't actually be painful. Until we are honest about the ramifications, we can't move forward. Even though we often disagree, I thank you for your politeness and willingness to engage in a discussion where you consider, even if you disagree, with another's point of view. +1
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 16:30:22 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. Indeed, it will probably be better in the long term to get it out of the way now since the US is running out of time: China doesn't want to buy our debt nor do many other nations. Unless the US government forces its citizens to buy US debt, such as mandating that a certain portion of retirement funds are placed in treasury bonds, what else can it do? It must stop borrowing and thus must stop spending. We can not tax ourselves out of this but instead go to austerity, do it now, and let the pieces fall. If that means that some people literally starve to death or die from a lack of healthcare, it will be the needed sacrifice to save the nation. We can not continue subsidizing and encouraging parasites. I am a believer too, austerity has to be there, just what is bing suggested by some, here it's the Tea Party, drastic in the short term, not middle and long term, it seems is raising unmployment drastically in the areras mentioned in my op, and these are countries an societys that mirror us, their debt is increasing...and by able to study that, the commentator on the show I quoted is suggestion that drastic measures, see Tea Party here, may NOT be the answer, as the POTUS is suggesting, for ther SHORT term, and compromise and milder austerity may be the answer. I watched a ball game the other day, team was down by 6 in the first. No way to try to get all 6 back in one inning..chip away and as the innings add up, score gets closer, then take some more chances, base running, moving runners, time running out..kinda the same thing, you screwed up, dowe n 6, FIRST inning..relax and just play your game... {think they lost anyway , but made it close. ;D} In fact want to add to Bilis thoughts too. Surprisingly, some really good discussion here, I had my doubts there for a while nough said on that and why, and love to see that and a congrats to all who made it that way. If we could only have more of it and keep the dissing aside..but here it was proven what this can become, if moon is actually reading all this, I know she hates thes political discussions, but I am thinking she would applaud and karma the tone of the disussion so to all who have participated I give you all a and as time permits some , ameiko first..Bilis, you'll have to wait, gave you one before methink. oops, sorry A ..30 more minutes, hope to remeber.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 28, 2011 16:50:02 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. ... Clearly we can't go on as we are and something that will fall within the general definition of "austerity" is necessary. #devil# Now the devil will be in the details of what that effort will look like. I believe that the attitude of, "Cut everything except ..." will cause the failure of any significant effort.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 16:58:27 GMT -5
Dezil, I am simply showing that austerity is the only option because we can not go on as we are. ... Clearly we can't go on as we are and something that will fall within the general definition of "austerity" is necessary. Now the devil will be in the details of what that effort will look like. I believe that the attitude of, "Cut everything except ..." will cause the failure of any significant effort. And since moderation and compromise is more palable to politically to all but the extremest, possible here is were the two groups join together, more moderate pubs and dems, and over ride the extremist and if the commentator is correctly, possible for different reasons, not rational ones, but political ones we get what should be the correct course, a more modest short term approach which may save us from what is happening in the aformentioned states, which as Martha says , "Is a good thing." ;D Middle and long term, possible, forget possible, in fact needed , more drastic action.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 28, 2011 18:53:38 GMT -5
Why should you understand? I guess for me it comes down to my belief that knowledge is better than ignorance. I fully understand this is not a universal belief. LOL!
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on May 30, 2011 11:52:35 GMT -5
Why should you understand? I guess for me it comes down to my belief that knowledge is better than ignorance. I fully understand this is not a universal belief. LOL! I wondering how he knows it isn't an universal belief? Billis, have you been talking to aliens lately?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 30, 2011 12:06:57 GMT -5
LOL! I wondering how he knows it isn't an universal belief? Billis, have you been talking to aliens lately? universe - definition of universe by the Free Online Dictionary ...2. universe - (statistics) the entire aggregation of items from which samples can be drawn; "it is an estimate of the mean of the population" ... www.thefreedictionary.com/universe - Cached - Similar
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