tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 20, 2011 15:45:29 GMT -5
That will happen shortly after the NEA and it's members quit whining about being underpaid. When was the last time that you saw an engineer, a lawyer, or an accountant complaining about their pay in the media? When teachers start acting like professionals, rather than blue collar laborers, they might get treated like professionals. Nobody does more damage to the regard that the public has for teachers than the NEA and teachers, themselves.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 20, 2011 15:51:26 GMT -5
"Dang, I thought most people, even non-teachers, got a few paid holidays off, too." Yeah, 6 paid holidays. I know a lot of places get more, but that is pretty standard in my industry unless you work for the government. I do know a second job would be hard for my SIL since she is a music teacher. There is a lot of after school stuff with that. I am flabbergasted by her financial choices that put her in a position that with a $50k a year job (yes she has given me that number, I'm not making it up), no car payment and no house payment with one teenage child that she is freaking out about this. Yes she has student loans for a PhD she just received, but what else that eats up $50k or $30k after taxes? My BIL's words are "she should be rolling in it" with her situation and I tend to agree with him. rob - I don't feel bad. I've spent too much time on the Babycenter Debate team boards after having my son. Those woman eat other posters for breakfast. They are brutal
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 20, 2011 15:57:11 GMT -5
I agree that a 3% pay cut by a government employee who has picked up a newspaper just once in the past 3 years should not come as a shock. There are tens of thousands of government employees in California who would be thrilled to have had only a 3% cut.
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Post by tea4me on Apr 20, 2011 16:05:46 GMT -5
How often do teachers have parent meetings? Where I live, there are parent/teacher conferences maybe twice a year. I understand that once in a while parents want to meet outside of parent/teacher conferences, but I highly doubt it is five nights a week.
I consider myself a "professional" with an 8 to 5 job five days a week. I get three weeks of vacation a year and six or seven paid holidays. Yet, I manage two part-time jobs. One is bartending and the other is bookkeeping which I usually do on weekends. It can be done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 16:33:40 GMT -5
Parent/teacher conference days don't count. We have them pretty much every week or so. These are generally after school and include IEP meetings, parent-requests, and teacher requests. If a teacher requests a conference, every teacher who teaches that student is expected to attend (a team approach). All schools aren't alike. Mine requires a lot of its teachers. They remind us at the Opening Day of School meeting every year that they get thousands of applicants for our jobs. That was true even before the recession. Piece of trivia that illustrates how different high-performing schools may differ from other schools. I never sat down for five hours today. (Fortunately, lunch did roll around. ) A teacher seated as his/her desk isn't considered to be teaching. ETA: Our contract says we have to ask for approval to work a second job in order to make certain that it doesn't conflict with our other responsibilities. But Swamp is right: you can work summers if someone will hire you for two months. Summer school is very competitive because they may only need one or two teachers per subject.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Apr 20, 2011 16:58:59 GMT -5
Our local City and County employees are looking at pay cuts this year of 5-10% (the ones that aren't laid off, that is) ... which comes on top of cuts last year. I think California state employees, with furloughs and all that, are probably in the same boat.
Some people can absorb these reductions better than others ... but they aren't surprising given all the media coverage about budget crises, etc.
I do think people tend to "post dramatically" on Facebook (sometimes) ... just so that they trigger responses from people.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 17:38:36 GMT -5
Can't you get a job teaching at day camps or day care centers in the summer? Where do the school kids go in the summer time when teachers are off? I would imagine that someone still needs to watch them,.,,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 18:10:38 GMT -5
Lol, Audreyalyce. McDonald's is also hiring. I'm not looking for another job. I actually already have a second and maybe third or fourth job. I give standardized tests like the ACT or SAT when they need me. I also do Saturday School when they need me as well. I teach online for the state when they need me. None of these are regular employment that I can count on, but they made it possible for me to quit my retail job several years ago. I got married, too, which also helped the budget somewhat. If you are talking about the OP's SIL, she may have children. That would eat into what you could earn with minimum wage. It probably wouldn't be worth it. I know if you are "hungry," you should be willing to work for 50 cents an hour, but most people aren't. For the record, day camps and day care centers in our area hire high school students (and sometimes college students) as their part-time workers. I know this because this is where my students work.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 18:42:57 GMT -5
"For the record, day camps and day care centers in our area hire high school students (and sometimes college students) as their part-time workers. I know this because this is where my students work. "
Good to know Susana.. I don't currently have kids so I wasn't sure. I figured that the kids had to go somewhere but I wasn't sure what the requirements were for employment at a day care/day camp...
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Post by dragonfly7 on Apr 20, 2011 20:46:14 GMT -5
It's a simple fact that when you look at teachers work schedule, it adds up to about 1,100 hours a year, not the 2,000 hours that we consider a "normal" full time job, assuming two weeks of vacation a year. Even if you add 10% to the teacher work schedule to allow for grading papers, lesson planning, etc. outside the scheduled work day, a teacher would spend 1,210 hours a year on work. This is still nearly 40% less than a "full time job" outside education. I laughed when I saw this. DH just started teaching three months ago, and including the planning, parent/teacher conferences (avg. 2 per week), and grading he does at home, he averages 10.5-11 hours per day, or 1974 hours per school year. He also has two weeks of unpaid required continuing education classes this summer. Between needing approval and the schedule, I think it is very difficult for a teacher to maintain a part-time position during the school year, but summer provides many employment opportunities depending on what you are willing to do. DH is being actively recruited to teach children's science workshops at a local community college as well as be a counselor at summer sleep-away camps affiliated with our church. He would personally rather see a move to year-round school but realizes that is not likely to happen for financial reasons.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Apr 20, 2011 21:45:11 GMT -5
I was just catching up on some emails from the past few days. The following was in my inbox. It gave me a chuckle:
"Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah. I don't, either."
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 21, 2011 0:12:42 GMT -5
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Post by commentator on Apr 21, 2011 1:32:33 GMT -5
Seeing as how she is a teacher, her work schedule should allow for time to pick up a side job to cover the income decrease. This isn't meant to be a slam against teachers. It's a simple fact that when you look at teachers work schedule, it adds up to about 1,100 hours a year, not the 2,000 hours that we consider a "normal" full time job, assuming two weeks of vacation a year. Even if you add 10% to the teacher work schedule to allow for grading papers, lesson planning, etc. outside the scheduled work day, a teacher would spend 1,210 hours a year on work. This is still nearly 40% less than a "full time job" outside education. tskeeter, you obviously don't know what is required of public school teachers. First, using your numbers your claim means teachers work 6.1 hours per day for 180 classroom days. You add nothing for in-service, parent conferences, club sponsorship or anything else. Second, based on your 6.1 hour day, your 10% guess would mean teachers spend 36 minutes per night grading papers, lesson planning, etc. No one rational could believe that all the time it takes per day for those tasks. Third, teachers are hired to work about 9 months. Since that is 3/4 of a work year, reasonable expectations would be 1,500 hours of work. Most teachers I know would love only having to work 1,500 hours from late August to early June. The other almost three months is spend decompressing, taking college courses to remain certified and competing with high school students for jobs needed to balance the family budget. The fact is, this society does not value education. That's why school teachers get screwed and that's why every time a self-serving politician wants to win points with his/her know-nothing constituents, the education budget gets slashed.
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daisylu
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Post by daisylu on Apr 21, 2011 5:05:28 GMT -5
Something else to remember (though maybe not relevant in SIL's situation) is that many school systems operate year round - the "summer break" is then split up into smaller segments throughout the year.
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Post by tea4me on Apr 21, 2011 8:57:40 GMT -5
The other almost three months is spend decompressing, taking college courses to remain certified and competing with high school students for jobs needed to balance the family budget. I am taking one week of vacation next month to decompress.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 21, 2011 10:16:56 GMT -5
The fact is, this society does not value education. That's why school teachers get screwed and that's why every time a self-serving politician wants to win points with his/her know-nothing constituents, the education budget gets slashed.
The problem with this theory is that EVERY budget is getting slashed. Infrastructure funding is down, social programs are being cut, education funding is getting cut. This isn't a slam on teachers; this is the way the US is right now. With 9% unemployment across the country, cuts in standards of living are going to be made. It happens. This shouldn't be unexpected.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 21, 2011 10:22:28 GMT -5
"The other almost three months is spend decompressing, taking college courses to remain certified and competing with high school students for jobs needed to balance the family budget."
Interesting, the rest of us manage to fit these things into our regular year without 3 months off.
"The fact is, this society does not value education. "
Society values education, and when teachers spend their time and effort educating rather than babysitting and complaining, perhaps society will value them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 21, 2011 10:24:18 GMT -5
The problem with this theory is that EVERY budget is getting slashed. Infrastructure funding is down, social programs are being cut, education funding is getting cut. This isn't a slam on teachers; this is the way the US is right now.
I haven't faced a cut but my salary has been frozen for the past two years, I haven't even recieved a cost of living raise.
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 21, 2011 10:38:05 GMT -5
If you want to stir the pot, you could post back that it sounds more like a 3% increase in expenses, not a 3% reduction in pay. Yes, boo-hoo, insurance costs more this year than last. The governor has the option to have you pay for your own increase or have everyone else pay for your increase (in addition to their own).
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 21, 2011 11:12:09 GMT -5
I'll play the devil's advocate. A 3% cut in pay or an equivalent increase in employee-paid health insurance can terrifying if your cash inflows and non-discretionary cash outflows are close enough to each each other. I once turned down a chance to move to a much better shift because it would mean giving up shift premiums and OT that were 3.5% of the previous year's gross pay. At the time, my fixed expenses were eating up about 80% of my net pay and irregular and non-cash expenses were probably another 10%. I just could not rationalize giving up roughly a third of my discretionary income under those circumstances.
Maybe there's something about your SIL's finances or future plans that you don't know about. Maybe she's just greedy but she's also acting like a broke person.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 21, 2011 11:36:17 GMT -5
I'm in Washington as well and while 3% is a legitimate hit to a few goals I'm not going to be homeless or anything. I'm just going to take those furlough days in stride and try to read a book and better myself. Sleep in and then make breakfast. Maybe go for a walk or something. Call up a relative I haven't talked to in awhile. It's a hit to my pay but I'll readjust. Hopefully I can take a furlough day on a Monday or Friday for a 3 day weekend.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 21, 2011 11:52:23 GMT -5
<< Society values education, and when teachers spend their time and effort educating rather than babysitting and complaining, perhaps society will value them. >>
It's not fair to blame teachers that they must spend so much time on activities other than teaching. Mandates are issued from on high, and they have no choice but to comply.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 21, 2011 14:21:40 GMT -5
Wrong assumption, commentator. Although I'm not a teacher, I'm actually pretty familiar with what is required of public school teachers. Dad's background is BS - Secondary Education, MS - Education, EDD (Doctor of Education), 30 years as an educator. Mom's background is BS - Elementary Education, MS - Special Learning and Behavioral Problems, 15 years in the class room. Cousin's background is BS - Learning and Behavioral Problems, MS - Learning and Behavioral Problems, about 15 years in the class room, so far. Mom's cousin's background is BS - Secondary Education, 30 years in the class room. An uncle was a university professor. BIL's background is BS - Secondary Education, 25 years in the class room. Several friends and several long time family friends have spent their careers teaching at the elementary and secondary levels. I have spent my entire life surrounded by educators, all of whom work in the public system. Based on 55 years of first hand observation of educators, much of this time on a day to day basis, I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the hours, expectations, and demands placed on teachers. (Note degrees could be BA/MA depending on area of emphasis and which school awarded the degree)
In my opinion, some teachers try to lead the general public to believe that teachers are underpaid and overworked. Based on my personal observations, I don't agree.
Teachers grade papers, prepare lesson plans, and are involved on parent conferences in addition to their class room time. True. And a 45 - 50 hour work week is pretty much the standard for most jobs requiring an education similar to a teacher's education (a salaried exempt job). Neither group is paid overtime for work over and above their scheduled work day, unless the teacher is coaching or adviser for an extra curricular activity, which results in additional compensation.
Teachers have to participate in continuing education classes. True. Accountants, lawyers, and a host of other occupations require continuing education also. The difference is that in education, additional education guarantees a pay raise. This isn't true in any job outside of education, that I am aware of. In the private sector, additional education is obtained with no guarantee of any benefit.
Teachers do continuing education on their own time. True. When I take a continuing education class, it may take place during the work day. Since I have a range of duties I am expected to complete, I work nights or weekends to get the work done that I didn't do while I was in continuing education classes. If I take classes toward an advanced degree, or an additional certification, that is also done on my own time or results in more night and weekend work.
Teachers have to attend the school's extra curricular activities. Can't prove it by me. As a member of the high school band, I attended every home football and basketball game and every band concert. Unless they had a child participating, very few teachers attended these activities.
Teacher don't get paid much. The teacher compensation numbers I have seen quoted are in line with the pay of a first year teacher in our local school district. A rookie teacher, fresh out of school, with a Bachelor's degree is paid $34,300 plus benefits (which includes a pension contribution = 21% of base salary) for a 185 day contract year. The starting salary of a first year auditor in this area is about $40,200 plus benefits (which may include an employer match on 401K contributions up to 3% of salary (this varies widely, but 3% is fairly common), but no pension) for a work year of about 240 days. So, a starting teacher in this area makes about $185 a day, while a starting accountant/auditor makes about $168 a day. Looks like teachers do OK, to me.
Teachers have in-service days, etc. that they work in addition to the days they are actually teaching students. Correct. However, as confirmed by dear old Dad, the 30 year educator, those days are included in the number of days a teacher is contracted to work (185 days in the local school system).
We can argue about how many hours a day teachers work all we want. However, my personal observation is that the tales of 8, 10, and 11 hour work days are the exception, and more common for new teachers just starting out, rather than the rule, for public school teachers as a whole.
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Post by tea4me on Apr 21, 2011 15:15:46 GMT -5
Thanks tskeeter! I exalted you. Teachers want us to think they work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2011 15:23:11 GMT -5
I wonder about the exact amount of her student loans. At one point I owed so much I was paying around 1k a month on them.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 21, 2011 16:26:16 GMT -5
Tea, thanks for the atta boy.
While I think that teaching is one of the most important jobs there is, I really dislike the way the NEA and some teachers misrepresent their situation. How about the teacher who used a political rally to complain to NJ Gov. Christy that her $80K pay check was inadequate recompense for her services? I realize that NJ is a HCOL area, but something around $66 an hour seems like a pretty good pay rate to me, even for a HCOL area..
In many cases, I think that teachers have come to actually believe the propaganda about how overworked and underpaid they are. If the NEA can't convince teachers that they are being taken advantage of by the school administration and the public at large, why would a teacher need the NEA to act as their advocate?
Overall, I've come to question more and more how many teachers have any understanding of how the people who fund teacher salaries earn a living and what effort the salary providers put into funding the salaries. When I hear teachers complaining about low pay and I know they are making twice the hourly rate of the average taxpayer, I get a bit incensed. Maybe it would be more reasonable to set teacher pay at between 100% and 125% of the average pay rate of the people who fund their pay checks. Isn't a 25% earnings premium adequate to recognize the significant contribution that well qualified teachers make to our society? I, for one, don't object to teachers earning the same hourly rate that I earn as a fellow "professional". I do object to the idea that teachers should earn the same annual income while working significantly fewer hours, though. For most of us, if we don't earn the annual income we desire, the answer is to switch to a more lucrative career, or to work harder to justify a promotion and a higher compensation level, not complain to the media about not getting paid enough.
It's time for educators to get in touch with what happens in the rest of the world and get realistic about their compensation and working conditions. If you want more money, you gotta add more value to the goods or services you provide.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 21, 2011 17:20:55 GMT -5
tbird, I should have taken more time to elaborate on the 100% to 125% of average pay rate idea. What I envisioned was that a new teacher would start at somewhere around 100% and as their experience and education level increased their compensation would increase also. I don't believe that there is a significant change in job demands for a teacher over their career so did not consider that. Basically teaching 7th grade history is teaching 7th grade history, regardless of whether it's your first year or your 10th year. For changes like taking on an AP class, a 50% increase in class size, etc., my perspective would be different. I'm obviously shooting from the hip in picking these rates. My though was that 100% of average pay rate would recognize the contribution that teachers make to our society and the amount of education that career requires by paying them a premium to the average hourly rate of all people just entering the job market in the field that will be their career. This premium would continue throughout a teacher's career. Regardless of the percentages I picked, what do you think of the concept that teacher compensation should be tied to the incomes of the people who fund teacher pay checks? Probably wouldn't want to do this on a school district by school district basis as it would probably make it hard for poor school districts to attract teachers, but do you think it has merit on a more macro level?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2011 18:33:43 GMT -5
I was going to retire from this thread, Skeeter, but I will now bite.
If the average salary is $18,000 (and there are a lot of poor districts with that income or less), do you think a worker with a college degree should also earn that? Are you willing for a lawyer in that community to also be paid as a percentage (maybe 125%), and a cpa, and a business owner, etc.?
I am in my twilight years. I have nine years to retiring . . . not because I am counting them, but because I am 57 years old. Retiring at age 66 is not a luxury based on my pension benefits, etc., but a realistic time frame that perhaps I should leave the work force. I started teaching in 1974 at age 20 so it will be a career that spanned 46 years although I took some years off to raise children.
Please remember that the model for teachers is shifting. You still have people like me for the next 10 or 15 years. But you have a new wave of teachers coming in. We were of the generation where if you were smart, you got either a teaching or a nursing degree. This assumes you were female. That has shifted.
Your next generation of teachers may not be as tolerant of the lack of respect that teachers now see. I am not talking about kids. My students respect me because I respect them. But when I read, as in another thread, about stuff like "why should I agree to let the school read my kid's text messages just because my kid broke the rule?", then I recognize this is territory I don't want to go in.
What will happen if there are no teachers? I know that's hard to imagine, and it probably won't ever happen because there will always be someone willing to teach for whatever you guys pay them, even if it's minimum wage. But what if it gets to that quality . . . because that's what your community earns?
It's scary, but maybe teaching has always been a scary profession. It used to be women couldn't be married and teach. Then they couldn't be pregnant and teach. (Believe it or not, I got hurt by that in 1976.) I know a band director turned assistant superintendent said the main reason why he loved his new job was that he could order a glass of wine without the community judging him.
I hope I live long enough to see how the teaching profession turns out. It may be really interesting . . .
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 21, 2011 18:54:34 GMT -5
Yes. The day they start acting like professionals. Could be awhile...
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Post by robbase on Apr 22, 2011 7:49:59 GMT -5
nope - education, job requirements, col, just like everyone.....
also supply and demand of the labor force
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