How to Fix Public Education

[geenamercile]

Jul 25, 2022 15:14:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 14:44:56 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I think there might be a large segment of wealthy people who would rather not pay to educate other people's kids. 
(that's the voucher and charter schools and basically any scheme that pulls money away from America's public schools.) 

So... schools that receive vouchers and charter schools don't educate other people's kids?  What do they do in there all day?

And if the state was paying $X,000 to educate a kid in the public (non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private- gotta be careful with my language since I'm only a clueless taxpayer and not an Educator) but instead the student no longer attends the non-charter, non-home-schooled, non-private school, and the parents get a voucher or credit for 50% of $X,000, doesn't the school system have more per student to spend on the remaining kids?

Well I guess that depends on what you are using as X, the amount to educate that one child or the amount that is the average for all the children in the district.  link  
¨According to 2019 estimates by the California Legislative Analyst Office (LAO), the average annual cost of educating a student with disabilities — $27,000 — is almost triple the cost to educate a student without disabilities — about $10,000.¨ 

I had one kiddo that I worked with that I call the Million dollar kid, because in all honesty with the services he received being placed outside of normal school from 3rd grade to when he finished high school, he probably cost the district around a million to educate him, or close to 100K a year.  He and kids like him certainly influence that per student spending number that people see.     

The kids who struggle who are not sped also receive supports with remediation classes.  These kids would not have as much of a difference with cost to educate, but there would be some for the teachers for these specialized classes and materials, but they would still be grouped in the average of non disable children to educate.  Kids in the gifted classes as well would have a higher cost to educate for the same reason, teachers and materials, but be in that average.         

This article looks at the cost of dual enrollment for school systems link  ¨While doing this math, we found that it costs Ohio over twice as much for a high schooler to take a class at a community college via dual enrollment than for a student to simply complete high school and take the same class after graduation via direct enrollment in that same community college. In Georgia, the state costs for a dual enrollment course were 60 percent higher than if the student took the community college course via direct enrollment after completing high school.¨ And it is the states/districts that pay these cost. 

So figuring out what to use as your X is tricky in itself.  Because honestly half of what the per student spending that districts give for simplicity, may still be more than what it actually costs to educate that 1 kid who does not receive any extras services.  Also the per student amount can greatly vary between districts as well in the same state.      

I will also say I do not think our school system is broken.  But I also do think it could not be improved, and yes if money wasn´t an issue there are lots of things I think everyone could agree with.  However, money is a thing and look at where it goes and how it is spent is important.  I speak more towards the SPED part because that is what I work and the area I have the most experience in.  One conversation that we have often in SPED, is that SPED is not suppose to even the playing field for students, not create an utopia learning experience for the student.  Every kid could benefit from one on one instruction, it does not mean every kid needs it.  There isn´t the money or people wanting to be teachers to do that. 

School no matter what isn´t going to be able to close the difference between different lives at home either.  I had one student who´s mom emailed us letting us know that she did not have the time to initial the student´s math log once a week that he studied his math notes.  She didn´t even half to study the math with him, just put pen to paper, nope couldn´t be bothered with it.  The teacher was just going to waive that as a homework completion for the student, but the student instead came in during homeroom time to study with me and I ended up signing it, he didn´t want to be different then others.  Student also had 4 younger siblings at home they helped take care of. 

I do not know how much these thoughts add or do not add to the conversation, but they are the ones that I have in my head right now.         

[formerroomate99]

Jul 25, 2022 16:26:10 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:21:00 GMT -5 cyanne said:

My understanding is that state funding for public schools is based on student count. You remove students you remove state funding so there is less money not more.

In Iowa, they publicize the day the student count is taken and beg parents to send their kids to school.  

I think we all agree that basing funding on nothing more than head count is a special kind of stupid. But choosing to keep a stupid funding structure so you can justify a one size fits few approach to education isn’t helpful. Your problem is the funding structure, not the existence of alternative schools.

My state and my school district both have some of the lowest per pupil spending in the country. We also have a ton of charter schools. I’ve been told that special ed is a district within a district, which would explain why the neighborhood schools my autistic son has been attending seem just as nice as the charter school that my other two are attending.

[formerroomate99]

Jul 25, 2022 16:14:05 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 15:57:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

In general, inner city public schools are a disaster . Lots of money spent but poor results. Thinking more vouchers to follow students might help the kids escape the government schools.

I do think we need to address the underlying issues.  One study I read concluded that the biggest underlying factor in a kid's success in school is- surprise!- parental involvement and engagement.  If parents are ill-equipped to support their kids' learning (reading to them and talking to them early on,  helping with homework, getting them the necessary supplies, addressing performance issues early) we need to address that.  They may not have had any support themselves or they may be overwhelmed by poverty or other stressors.  I never take it for granted that my parents "just knew" that you read to babies, helped them explore the world, taught them letters and numbers early.  And I still remember my Dad standing there watching me do tiresome computational Math, checking it with his slide rule and saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Do it again."

Here's an example of the difference between kids who are read to before they start school and kids who are not.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404074947.htm

This doesn't just affect the number of words in their vocabulary.  It means their brains are getting more stimulation during an important phase in their brain development.  Is the Parents as Teachers program still being used?  I didn't read much about it but it sounded beneficial for those parents who needed help in that area.

May I remind you that it is not Republicans who created and defended a welfare system that made children their parents meal ticket, which dramatically increased the number of children being raised by parents who suck. Two of my grandparents had trash for parents, but because the trash that spawned them didn’t have a financial incentive to keep them, they were sent away to orphanages and extended family where they got to spend time with people who actually had their heads screwed on straight. As a result, they learned how to be productive adults.

My cousin wasn’t so lucky. Because of the. welfare system you Dems created, she was left with her entitled brat of a mother and a father who abandoned her, despite the fact that there were relatives who wanted to take her and give her a better life. Being left with her twit of a mother ruined my cousin’s life, something you guys think is just awesome. And it’s easy to see why. Leaving her to be raised by a child in a grown woman’s body pretty much guarantee that she and her children would be in the gutter reliably voting Democrat. Compassion had nothing to do with this.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 18:21:27 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:26:10 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

In Iowa, they publicize the day the student count is taken and beg parents to send their kids to school.  

I think we all agree that basing funding on nothing more than head count is a special kind of stupid. But choosing to keep a stupid funding structure so you can justify a one size fits few approach to education isn’t helpful. Your problem is the funding structure, not the existence of alternative schools.

In KS, they have an absolutely Byzantine funding formula that adds all kinds of weights for kids with IEPs, kids on free lunches (no wonder they try to sign everybody up), kids in ESL classes, etc. It does make more sense to me that kids who need extra resources should get more funding from the state- although sometimes I'd like to leave the state out of it completely, rather than add yet another layer of bureaucracy that collects tax money, doles it out again and adds another layer of cost in the process.

Jul 25, 2022 18:51:41 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

May I remind you that it is not Republicans who created and defended a welfare system that made children their parents meal ticket, which dramatically increased the number of children being raised by parents who suck.

Your language is harsher than I'd use but you've addressed some major concerns I have with our current system. If you're relying on the government to feed and house your kids, another baby is cash-flow positive in the short run. WIC, more SNAP benefits, more welfare payments- what do they call it now- Temporary Assistance to Needy Families? We've also created a system where the family gets more if the so-called father isn't on the scene. That, of course, lets guys reproduce irresponsibly knowing they're not going to have to actually pay to raise the kid.

I wish I knew how to fix it. There have been attempts to limit payments for more than X kids but of course the kids suffer and it's not their fault.

[TheOtherMe]

Why am I not surprised that the topic of WIC, SNAP, etc. has come up.  I knew it would lead to this.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 25, 2022 20:40:47 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Why am I not surprised that the topic of WIC, SNAP, etc. has come up.  I knew it would lead to this.

And the Supreme Court decision just made this worse. I can’t wait to see republicans pay for the increase in birth. Oh, who am I kidding, they will just do more of the sdd as me they are now. Crueltseems yo be the point nowadays

[NastyWoman]

Jul 25, 2022 18:51:41 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:14:05 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I do think we need to address the underlying issues.  One study I read concluded that the biggest underlying factor in a kid's success in school is- surprise!- parental involvement and engagement.  If parents are ill-equipped to support their kids' learning (reading to them and talking to them early on,  helping with homework, getting them the necessary supplies, addressing performance issues early) we need to address that.  They may not have had any support themselves or they may be overwhelmed by poverty or other stressors.  I never take it for granted that my parents "just knew" that you read to babies, helped them explore the world, taught them letters and numbers early.  And I still remember my Dad standing there watching me do tiresome computational Math, checking it with his slide rule and saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Do it again."

Here's an example of the difference between kids who are read to before they start school and kids who are not.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404074947.htm

This doesn't just affect the number of words in their vocabulary.  It means their brains are getting more stimulation during an important phase in their brain development.  Is the Parents as Teachers program still being used?  I didn't read much about it but it sounded beneficial for those parents who needed help in that area.

May I remind you that it is not Republicans who created and defended a welfare system that made children their parents meal ticket, which dramatically increased the number of children being raised by parents who suck. Two of my grandparents had trash for parents, but because the trash that spawned them didn’t have a financial incentive to keep them, they were sent away to orphanages and extended family where they got to spend time with people who actually had their heads screwed on straight. As a result, they learned how to be productive adults.

My cousin wasn’t so lucky. Because of the. welfare system you Dems created, she was left with her entitled brat of a mother and a father who abandoned her, despite the fact that there were relatives who wanted to take her and give her a better life. Being left with her twit of a mother ruined my cousin’s life, something you guys think is just awesome. And it’s easy to see why. Leaving her to be raised by a child in a grown woman’s body pretty much guarantee that she and her children would be in the gutter reliably voting Democrat. Compassion had nothing to do with this.

WOW, just WOW!  SMH

[djAdvocate]

Jul 25, 2022 16:15:18 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Why Homework?

Completion of homework assignments demonstrate a willingness to work "off the clock". It indicates who should advance in schooling towards jobs, generally better paying ones, that have such expectations. Those unwilling to do such work should fail to advance and be slotted for hourly wage jobs.

it helps a person adopt an attitude toward voluntary servitude, to not value their time, and to comply to social norms.

no positives in there.

the best school systems basically have no homework.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 25, 2022 17:36:13 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Jul 25, 2022 15:57:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

In general, inner city public schools are a disaster . Lots of money spent but poor results. Thinking more vouchers to follow students might help the kids escape the government schools
Agree with not pushing most kids to college. Education that includes Trades would be an asset for many kids and society

I think the dismantling of the vocational programs is one big reason why the inner-city schools are a disaster. If you’re a very poor kid who isn’t a genius,, your chances of succeeding in college are not very high. So whether you pay attention in school or not, you’re going to end up working at McDonald’s anyway. But if paying attention in school means that you leave high school with a certification that will let you walk into a job making real money, then you’ve got reason to pay attention in school.

it might surprise you that i agree with this.  but keep in mind that this is a byproduct of the destruction of unions, who formed the backbone of these programs.

are you pro-union?  and if not, what do you suggest to replace them in this respect?

[djAdvocate]

Jul 25, 2022 20:40:47 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Why am I not surprised that the topic of WIC, SNAP, etc. has come up.  I knew it would lead to this.

of course it will.

but in defense of those programs, how can we expect people to take chances with their education if there is no social safety net?  i mean, rich people will do just fine with that, but what if you have NO personal wealth to back up your decisions?  will you take chances?

of course not.  you will put your nose to the grind stone for minimum wages, working 80 hours a week in multiple jobs, so you can have SOME standard of living.  you will skip school, and that will limit your opportunities.

that is the reality in the US.

[finnime]

The degree of elitism and entitlement expressed in this thread leaves me breathless.

At core, the attitude seems to be that there's something wrong with people who are poor. Proof that there's something wrong is that they are poor, not like me. Poor people don't deserve food (WIC or SNAP), or adequate schools for their kids, or to have kids at all. Poor kids are disruptive in school. They interfere with the education of the "regular" kids and divert teachers and other resources. Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families.

Do I have that right? Because that belief system is sick.

You are well off, due in part to your hard work but also due to a huge amount of pure luck. The luck allowed you to benefit from your hard work. YOu were healthy enough and well enough fed to take advantage of the schooling offered to you. You were able to work, and privileged enough to get jobs that rewarded your efforts and background. And you were lucky enough to avoid the disasters that can suck a person or family down. You did not suffer a ruinous illness or accident. You did not work for a company that Enron bought and sucked dry leaving you with nothing. There are thousands of other unrecoverable misfortunes that you did not suffer. Problems you encountered had solutions. You have been lucky.

I myself believe in public schools and schooling. I have been privileged enough in my life to choose places to live that offered excellent public schools for my off-the-charts kids. I wish that all children had enough food and stability in their lives to take advantage of very good schools, and that very good schools were available to them freely. I have lived in high-tax, high-service areas.

[finnime]

It was the Democrat Bill Clinton who solidified the "workfare" programs that require parents to work before they can get TANF. Welfare as it was ended. For the third or subsequent children in many states no more benefits are payable. The result of workfare is that much larger numbers of kids are under- or unfed and a larger number are homeless. THe myth that Regan promulgated of the welfare queen is a myth, nothing more.

[finnime]

Two very good things arising from the Covid pandemic in the U.S.: free breakfasts and lunches for everyone in public school, regardless of income, and the extension of EITC for families. Childhood poverty took a huge hit. Unfortunately the continuation of the EITC enlargement is up in the air.

[giramomma]

Jul 26, 2022 0:50:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:15:18 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Why Homework?

Completion of homework assignments demonstrate a willingness to work "off the clock". It indicates who should advance in schooling towards jobs, generally better paying ones, that have such expectations. Those unwilling to do such work should fail to advance and be slotted for hourly wage jobs.

it helps a person adopt an attitude toward voluntary servitude, to not value their time, and to comply to social norms.

no positives in there.

the best school systems basically have no homework.

There have also been studies done that show busywork isn't useful.https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/03/homework

It's an interesting correlation...

I'm watching my supervisor choose to do non-valued added busy work. Sure, my supervisor is finding a way to fill 8 hours a day. Much of the work is pointless. I am actually astounded, because I'm pretty drowning right now, with work assignments. There are three of us, and I have been assigned about half the workload for one side of our business. I'm also doing about 75% of the work for another side of the business. To say I get resentful is an understatement.

Homework is one of the reasons we went private. Our school subscribes to the 10 minutes a day/grade. I can't imagine trying to get a kindergartner to do 45 minutes of homework a night. My supervisor had to do that right before the pandemic hit.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2022 6:57:17 GMT -5 giramomma said:

the best school systems basically have no homework. There have also been studies done that show busywork isn't useful.https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/03/homework

Ya know what I remember from 3rd grade? We had a sub when my teacher was out for a long period after surgery. The sub REPEATEDLY assigned the following Math homework- only the numbers varied. Start on your worksheet with 144. Keep subtracting 6, showing each interim result, till you get to zero. Then she'd say she wouldn't do that assignment anymore- and she'd do it again. It bored me to tears and even though I went on to get a Math degree, I still don't do well without a calculator. I don't even remember he ever asking us to count the number of subtractions we had to make, to introduce the concept of division. Pure busywork. This was a faith-based school so they're not immune to it.

The only assignments that I felt really enhanced my learning was writing papers. Even now in my seminary classes, I love taking a topic I want to explore further and going hog-wild with it.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Half the reason I sent my kids to the Montessori was the no homework policy.  Pre-K through 8th grade, nothing.  No homework, no tests.  It was wonderful.  I was worried my oldest would struggle with going to a traditional high school afterwards, but he was fine. 

I moved Carrot from the Montessori to private in 5th grade due to covid and even though they don't do a lot of homework, I still thought it sucked.  Sometimes I wish we would have just stuck it out in 2020. 

[billisonboard]

Schools were originally designed to be "sorting machines" for capitalist America. Can't sit still at a desk? Out the schoolhouse door and into the fields you go. Willing/able to handle rote tasks but not more? Do we have nice factory job for you. Etc, etc. While we have moved on to some degree, we no longer attempt to synchronize bladders for assembly line work, the basic structure of schools has not changed much. I see, to a large degree, that the current problems flow from the difficulty of "re-purposing" a tool not designed to do what we wish it would do today.

[TheOtherMe]

Jul 26, 2022 4:40:01 GMT -5 finnime said:

The degree of elitism and entitlement expressed in this thread leaves me breathless.

At core, the attitude seems to be that there's something wrong with people who are poor. Proof that there's something wrong is that they are poor, not like me. Poor people don't deserve food (WIC or SNAP), or adequate schools for their kids, or to have kids at all. Poor kids are disruptive in school. They interfere with the education of the "regular" kids and divert teachers and other resources. Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families.

Do I have that right? Because that belief system is sick.

You are well off, due in part to your hard work but also due to a huge amount of pure luck. The luck allowed you to benefit from your hard work. YOu were healthy enough and well enough fed to take advantage of the schooling offered to you. You were able to work, and privileged enough to get jobs that rewarded your efforts and background. And you were lucky enough to avoid the disasters that can suck a person or family down. You did not suffer a ruinous illness or accident. You did not work for a company that Enron bought and sucked dry leaving you with nothing. There are thousands of other unrecoverable misfortunes that you did not suffer. Problems you encountered had solutions. You have been lucky.

I myself believe in public schools and schooling. I have been privileged enough in my life to choose places to live that offered excellent public schools for my off-the-charts kids. I wish that all children had enough food and stability in their lives to take advantage of very good schools, and that very good schools were available to them freely. I have lived in high-tax, high-service areas.

You stated much more eloquently than I did.  

I have the privilege of being white, but I grew up poor.  Not poor to the point I wondered if I was going to eat but poor enough that, at times, we received commodities.  Some of the best cheese I have eaten.  

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2022 4:40:01 GMT -5 finnime said:

The degree of elitism and entitlement expressed in this thread leaves me breathless.

At core, the attitude seems to be that there's something wrong with people who are poor. Proof that there's something wrong is that they are poor, not like me. Poor people don't deserve food (WIC or SNAP), or adequate schools for their kids, or to have kids at all. Poor kids are disruptive in school. They interfere with the education of the "regular" kids and divert teachers and other resources. Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families.

Do I have that right? Because that belief system is sick.

Please provide a quote from any of my posts which said any of the above.

1. "Poor people don't deserve food (WIC or SNAP), or adequate schools for their kids, or to have kids at all."

I never said that poor people didn't deserve to be fed, nor that they didn't deserve to have children- but how many people do you know who are NOT reliant on needs-based government programs who have more than 3 kids? Not many, I'll bet. No matter how much we love children, we stop at 2 or 3 because we realize we don't have the resources to feed, clothe and educate more.

2. "Poor kids are disruptive in school. They interfere with the education of the "regular" kids and divert teachers and other resources."

Huh? Every school has disruptive kids and yes, there should be a way to keep them from interfering with the education of other kids in the classroom. As noted in the discussion on the article you posted, the schools in wealthier areas generally have kids with wider access to drugs and alcohol.

3. "Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families."

Well, you're describing the current situation, minus the voucher part. If you're poor and would do better in a non-taxpayer supported school but your parents cant afford it, well, too bad, so sad. Id like to change that.

ETA:  I believe in empowering people.  Period.  I know there will always be a segment that needs a basic safety net- lack of marketable skills or the ability to acquire them, mental illness that can't be treated effectively, there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I health issues.  I would rather help people who can improve their lives and income potential do so rather than continue to provide disincentives to work and keep them dependent for generations.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 26, 2022 4:59:18 GMT -5 finnime said:

Two very good things arising from the Covid pandemic in the U.S.: free breakfasts and lunches for everyone in public school, regardless of income, and the extension of EITC for families. Childhood poverty took a huge hit. Unfortunately the continuation of the EITC enlargement is up in the air.

that program cut child poverty FIFTY PERCENT.  you read that right.

that put us in line with most other western nations, where child poverty is half what it is in the US.  continuation of those programs would mean that we can rank ourselves as average in this category.

count on the GOP overturning this, and sending us to the basement, again.

[anciana]

Jul 26, 2022 12:21:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 26, 2022 4:59:18 GMT -5 finnime said:

Two very good things arising from the Covid pandemic in the U.S.: free breakfasts and lunches for everyone in public school, regardless of income, and the extension of EITC for families. Childhood poverty took a huge hit. Unfortunately the continuation of the EITC enlargement is up in the air.

that program cut child poverty FIFTY PERCENT.  you read that right.

that put us in line with most other western nations, where child poverty is half what it is in the US.  continuation of those programs would mean that we can rank ourselves as average in this category.

count on the GOP overturning this, and sending us to the basement, again.

We heard from our kids' school that breakfast and lunch will not be free any more; back to pre-covid times we go

[djAdvocate]

Jul 26, 2022 12:37:45 GMT -5 anciana said:

Jul 26, 2022 12:21:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that program cut child poverty FIFTY PERCENT.  you read that right.

that put us in line with most other western nations, where child poverty is half what it is in the US.  continuation of those programs would mean that we can rank ourselves as average in this category.

count on the GOP overturning this, and sending us to the basement, again.

We heard from our kids' school that breakfast and lunch will not be free any more; back to pre-covid times we go

i guess that our "pro-family" party only cares about THEIR families.

[swamp]

Jul 26, 2022 4:40:01 GMT -5 finnime said:

The degree of elitism and entitlement expressed in this thread leaves me breathless.

At core, the attitude seems to be that there's something wrong with people who are poor. Proof that there's something wrong is that they are poor, not like me. Poor people don't deserve food (WIC or SNAP), or adequate schools for their kids, or to have kids at all. Poor kids are disruptive in school. They interfere with the education of the "regular" kids and divert teachers and other resources. Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families.

Do I have that right? Because that belief system is sick.

You are well off, due in part to your hard work but also due to a huge amount of pure luck. The luck allowed you to benefit from your hard work. YOu were healthy enough and well enough fed to take advantage of the schooling offered to you. You were able to work, and privileged enough to get jobs that rewarded your efforts and background. And you were lucky enough to avoid the disasters that can suck a person or family down. You did not suffer a ruinous illness or accident. You did not work for a company that Enron bought and sucked dry leaving you with nothing. There are thousands of other unrecoverable misfortunes that you did not suffer. Problems you encountered had solutions. You have been lucky.

I myself believe in public schools and schooling. I have been privileged enough in my life to choose places to live that offered excellent public schools for my off-the-charts kids. I wish that all children had enough food and stability in their lives to take advantage of very good schools, and that very good schools were available to them freely. I have lived in high-tax, high-service areas.

The best predictor of a child's success is a parent's success.     

[teen persuasion]

Jul 26, 2022 10:04:10 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

3. "Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families."

Well, you're describing the current situation, minus the voucher part. If you're poor and would do better in a non-taxpayer supported school but your parents cant afford it, well, too bad, so sad. Id like to change that.

ETA:  I believe in empowering people.  Period.  I know there will always be a segment that needs a basic safety net- lack of marketable skills or the ability to acquire them, mental illness that can't be treated effectively, there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I health issues.  I would rather help people who can improve their lives and income potential do so rather than continue to provide disincentives to work and keep them dependent for generations.

The problem with the voucher idea is that it sucks a giant amount of funds out of an already tight budget, exacerbating cuts to educational programs for the students who are left in the public system. Simultaneously, it sucks off the students with a stronger support system, leaving the students with more middling or actually weak support systems and skills. There's now a lower percentage of "good" students to present competent learning examples to peers, and a higher percentage of students with more challenging issues (learning, behavior, etc).

Despite a now lower absolute number of students, the base costs of running a school district remains the same (building costs, utilities, contracted services, etc) and the variable costs may decrease little due to the higher cost of educating the remaining students. If you then transfer half (or any percentage) of the AVERAGE per capita cost (not actual cost per student - averages include both special ed and "regular" students) - that public school budget is now in a hole, and a death spiral.


The public schools will be stronger if they are responsible for educating the majority of a locale's children, not just those who can't escape to a "better" school. There's an incentive to make "your" school the best it can be, for everyone.

DH and I both went to private schools, ES, HS, college. We opted for public schools for our kids because of the drawbacks we noticed in our experiences - lack of extracurriculars (music, sports, AP classes, dual enrollment, etc) due to limited school size. Catholic schools are shrinking, challenged by dropping enrollments and widespread closures by the diocese, so things are only likely to be worse than in our childhoods. The larger size of a public system is advantageous, they can offer more choice. But -- some smaller nearby districts are cutting things like music programs. If a voucher program allowed a private school to siphon off a proportion of that district's students, AND a proportion of its budget, will things be better or worse for the remaining students in that district?

[djAdvocate]

Jul 26, 2022 19:27:32 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Jul 26, 2022 10:04:10 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

3. "Involved, deserving, not-poor parents should have a (subsidized) choice of schools so their kids can get good educations. Other kids should not have been born into poor and undeserving families."

Well, you're describing the current situation, minus the voucher part. If you're poor and would do better in a non-taxpayer supported school but your parents cant afford it, well, too bad, so sad. Id like to change that.

ETA:  I believe in empowering people.  Period.  I know there will always be a segment that needs a basic safety net- lack of marketable skills or the ability to acquire them, mental illness that can't be treated effectively, there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I health issues.  I would rather help people who can improve their lives and income potential do so rather than continue to provide disincentives to work and keep them dependent for generations.

The problem with the voucher idea is that it sucks a giant amount of funds out of an already tight budget, exacerbating cuts to educational programs for the students who are left in the public system. Simultaneously, it sucks off the students with a stronger support system, leaving the students with more middling or actually weak support systems and skills. There's now a lower percentage of "good" students to present competent learning examples to peers, and a higher percentage of students with more challenging issues (learning, behavior, etc).

Despite a now lower absolute number of students, the base costs of running a school district remains the same (building costs, utilities, contracted services, etc) and the variable costs may decrease little due to the higher cost of educating the remaining students. If you then transfer half (or any percentage) of the AVERAGE per capita cost (not actual cost per student - averages include both special ed and "regular" students) - that public school budget is now in a hole, and a death spiral.


The public schools will be stronger if they are responsible for educating the majority of a locale's children, not just those who can't escape to a "better" school. There's an incentive to make "your" school the best it can be, for everyone.

DH and I both went to private schools, ES, HS, college. We opted for public schools for our kids because of the drawbacks we noticed in our experiences - lack of extracurriculars (music, sports, AP classes, dual enrollment, etc) due to limited school size. Catholic schools are shrinking, challenged by dropping enrollments and widespread closures by the diocese, so things are only likely to be worse than in our childhoods. The larger size of a public system is advantageous, they can offer more choice. But -- some smaller nearby districts are cutting things like music programs. If a voucher program allowed a private school to siphon off a proportion of that district's students, AND a proportion of its budget, will things be better or worse for the remaining students in that district?

it also tends to reward those that have no intention of using the public school system, and can afford the private system WITHOUT vouchers.

there was talk about "means testing" the system, but that, ttbomk, was never done.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jul 26, 2022 0:50:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:15:18 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Why Homework?

Completion of homework assignments demonstrate a willingness to work "off the clock". It indicates who should advance in schooling towards jobs, generally better paying ones, that have such expectations. Those unwilling to do such work should fail to advance and be slotted for hourly wage jobs.

it helps a person adopt an attitude toward voluntary servitude, to not value their time, and to comply to social norms.

no positives in there.

the best school systems basically have no homework.

agree completely!

So much to unpack.

Homework unfairly shifts the burder of teaching onto the parent. Some parents may be unwilling or unable to do so. Some may not know how to do it and can't help even if they want to. Or it is busywork the kid didn't need. 

Teachers who value homework were kids who were good at doing homework. Not all students who struggled with homework struggle with the content. The real world frequently values and rewards talent - which has nothing to do with homework.

Valueing or instilling a willingness to work off the clock makes me nauseaus. And the new generations of workers are less and less inclined to do it. While I think it is a good trend, it does make me a bit bitter about how many companies took advantage of my talent and dedication without rewarding it. Nothing should be expected "off the clock". 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jul 25, 2022 18:51:41 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Jul 25, 2022 16:14:05 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I do think we need to address the underlying issues.  One study I read concluded that the biggest underlying factor in a kid's success in school is- surprise!- parental involvement and engagement.  If parents are ill-equipped to support their kids' learning (reading to them and talking to them early on,  helping with homework, getting them the necessary supplies, addressing performance issues early) we need to address that.  They may not have had any support themselves or they may be overwhelmed by poverty or other stressors.  I never take it for granted that my parents "just knew" that you read to babies, helped them explore the world, taught them letters and numbers early.  And I still remember my Dad standing there watching me do tiresome computational Math, checking it with his slide rule and saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Do it again."

Here's an example of the difference between kids who are read to before they start school and kids who are not.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404074947.htm

This doesn't just affect the number of words in their vocabulary.  It means their brains are getting more stimulation during an important phase in their brain development.  Is the Parents as Teachers program still being used?  I didn't read much about it but it sounded beneficial for those parents who needed help in that area.

May I remind you that it is not Republicans who created and defended a welfare system that made children their parents meal ticket, which dramatically increased the number of children being raised by parents who suck. Two of my grandparents had trash for parents, but because the trash that spawned them didn’t have a financial incentive to keep them, they were sent away to orphanages and extended family where they got to spend time with people who actually had their heads screwed on straight. As a result, they learned how to be productive adults.

My cousin wasn’t so lucky. Because of the. welfare system you Dems created, she was left with her entitled brat of a mother and a father who abandoned her, despite the fact that there were relatives who wanted to take her and give her a better life. Being left with her twit of a mother ruined my cousin’s life, something you guys think is just awesome. And it’s easy to see why. Leaving her to be raised by a child in a grown woman’s body pretty much guarantee that she and her children would be in the gutter reliably voting Democrat. Compassion had nothing to do with this.

this is.....rather incredible. Aside from a lot of hyperbole and generic insults the only actual events or behaviors you describe are a father who left and that she votes democratic.

Is it your contention that voting democratic is what make her life "ruined"? Because, it certainly sounds that way.

And it is both very sad and hilarious that this word salad was put together this way as ......an attempt at evidence? of......what?

[djAdvocate]

Jul 27, 2022 13:15:22 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Jul 26, 2022 0:50:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it helps a person adopt an attitude toward voluntary servitude, to not value their time, and to comply to social norms.

no positives in there.

the best school systems basically have no homework.

agree completely!

So much to unpack.

Homework unfairly shifts the burder of teaching onto the parent. Some parents may be unwilling or unable to do so. Some may not know how to do it and can't help even if they want to. Or it is busywork the kid didn't need. 

Teachers who value homework were kids who were good at doing homework. Not all students who struggled with homework struggle with the content. The real world frequently values and rewards talent - which has nothing to do with homework.

Valueing or instilling a willingness to work off the clock makes me nauseaus. And the new generations of workers are less and less inclined to do it. While I think it is a good trend, it does make me a bit bitter about how many companies took advantage of my talent and dedication without rewarding it. Nothing should be expected "off the clock". 

the most brutal transition i had in my adult life was drawing a line between my work and my home life.  it was REALLY HARD.  took years.  #sad

[Rukh O'Rorke]

I'm also a little confused on why prevention of violence, school shootings, bullying, other assaults, etc. aren't at the top of the list for fixing education.

[cronewitch]

I think we need to separate kids into how easy they are to teach. Respectful children who listen and try from harder to educate children. Mainstreaming special needs kids only if they are able to pay attention. Kids with bad parents who demand the little angel doesn't have to behave need their kids separate.

I love that special needs kids get educated but if they are disruptive and violent, they need to be in small classes with specialist and aids. Special needs like mobility or vision or hearing can be mainstreamed and learning disabilities that don't cause problems. 

Those not good in classrooms can be in tiny class sizes like 8 kids with a teacher and an aid and held to the same academic standards. They would get individual education plans whatever was best for them.

From what I hear dealing with the political stuff is what makes teachers quit.