Hydroxychloroqine

[djAdvocate]

so, why did I start a thread on a subject that ended about six months ago?

well, because for some folks, it clearly hasn't ended.

I belong to a public radio station and sit on the board of directors. there is a listserv within that community that unfortunately can be accessed by "outside players". one of these guys is a marketing and ad guy with some donor level connection to one of the stations. I recall that he made a heap of money in some real estate deal, and now can while away his days sending out stuff to the listserv.....but I digress.

a couple of weeks ago, he sent out this email to our local listserv about the effectiveness of HCQ.  in the letter, he cited that "medical expert" Stella Immanuel.  I happened to know a bit about her, so I replied to this chain, basically pointing out that she is nuts.  he then takes me on PRIVATELY.  we have been going at it for two weeks.

what I find interesting is that this is not a dumb guy.  but he believes this shit.  I point out to him that I have seen no PROOF that HCQ is effective, and that if he is serious about debating me, he should provide it.  so, he sends me THIS website:

c19study.com

this, and a half dozen other website are apparently run anonymously, and by the same organization or individual.  if you notice, it doesn't actually reference the original material, and provides it's own assessment.  I think that this is really weird, so I start looking into the WEBSITE, and find THIS:

www.inforweb.ch/covid-19/

this analysis of this website is surprisingly detailed.  but, since I am already in an untrusting mood, I look for verification of this website, and find another website which showed that only SEVEN of the studies cited at c19study were peer reviewed, and NONE of them showed positive results.

the reason I am bringing this up is to point out how powerful confirmation bias is on the web.  if you believe something, and someone like me questions it, you probably have the impulse to show them WHY you believe it.  but if you already believed it before you "found" your "proof", then you probably didn't bother to examine the quality of your evidence.

so- apart from that general point, I am wondering WHY that c19study site exists?  I will point out that it shows up regularly as a reference for the people who think HCQ is safe and effective as a treatment for C19 (there is no medical evidence this is true).

what do you think of all this?  I find it really amazing, which is why I felt the need to post this.  it must fit into a larger anti-government conspiracy or something.  and it must be important enough to ignore the obvious truths that are out there about this and MANY other subjects.

[pulmonarymd]

People continue to believe antibiotics work on viruses. Cancer spreads when you open up the body. Taking a multivitamin is beneficial to your health. All kinds of other nonsense too numerous to list. These sort of beliefs die hard. People want to have an easy answer to complicated problems.

They can publish all they want. Nobody is going to get these treatments from any reputable physician and hospital. The only problem is the time it takes away from real studies and ideas

[djAdvocate]

Jan 31, 2021 15:57:04 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

People continue to believe antibiotics work on viruses. Cancer spreads when you open up the body. Taking a multivitamin is beneficial to your health. All kinds of other nonsense too numerous to list. These sort of beliefs die hard. People want to have an easy answer to complicated problems.

They can publish all they want. Nobody is going to get these treatments from any reputable physician and hospital. The only problem is the time it takes away from real studies and ideas

the thing about that website is that it APPEARS convincing. and the information that they are presenting is very difficult to "drill down" in. so, unless you are NATURALLY SUSPICIOUS (which, apparently you are, if you believe in HCQ) you won't bother trying to find out what is up with that.

and, admittedly, doing the dry academic work of looking into these peer reviewed studies is DRUDGERY. so, yeah, can't blame the lazy.

in short, a combination of unfounded belief and lazy is at work, clearly. but what else, pmd? and WHY? why is someone going to the trouble of erecting half a dozen sites in support of HCQ?

I am baffled.

[pulmonarymd]

There is an interesting book called “how doctors think”. Physicians can have the same problems as everyone else. Confirmation bias, premature closure, emotional attachment to an answer, believing what you see and not other facts, and wishing simple answers to complicated issues. Changing your mind is difficult for many, but a necessary ability for knowledge to grow.

I think these sites run the gamut. Some are true believers, no amount of truth will dissuade them, and they get messianic about it. Financial for some. Some are cynical and want to take down the man. It’s a game for some. People get into conspiracy theories. The internet has made it worse. Just look at the anti-vaxxers. It is now almost a religion to them. No amount of facts will change their minds

[djAdvocate]

so, just guessing, who do you think is behind the C19study site? I really can't imagine WHY someone would fudge the findings to create a favorable view of HCQ. as I said, this debate was over six months ago, when half a dozen studies showed that HCQ was not going to work (a fact that most in the field knew prima face).

the only two groups I can think of are anti-pharma folks and pro-Trumpers. of those two, only one would risk openly lying to make their point. so I am going with some Trumpy stooge.

edit: I just remembered that none of this was done openly.  there is literally nobody associated with that site.  so, I guess it could be someone who is anti-pharma, too.

[pulmonarymd]

Jan 31, 2021 16:38:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so, just guessing, who do you think is behind the C19study site? I really can't imagine WHY someone would fudge the findings to create a favorable view of HCQ. as I said, this debate was over six months ago, when half a dozen studies showed that HCQ was not going to work (a fact that most in the field knew prima face).

the only two groups I can think of are anti-pharma folks and pro-Trumpers. of those two, only one would risk openly lying to make their point. so I am going with some Trumpy stooge.

edit: I just remembered that none of this was done openly.  there is literally nobody associated with that site.  so, I guess it could be someone who is anti-pharma, too.

I think these people are like anti-vaxxers. There is an agenda. Could be trumpets, most likely are. The medical community won’t change, but people no longer believe experts, and by putting enough information on the net, they will make it seem like there is a controversy. They may be true believers, or sick individuals who like to cause chaos. I think it is a sign of the times. We have become so distrustful of expertise, we are willing to hurt ourselves. I am not confident we can fix it

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2021 17:53:55 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jan 31, 2021 16:38:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so, just guessing, who do you think is behind the C19study site? I really can't imagine WHY someone would fudge the findings to create a favorable view of HCQ. as I said, this debate was over six months ago, when half a dozen studies showed that HCQ was not going to work (a fact that most in the field knew prima face).

the only two groups I can think of are anti-pharma folks and pro-Trumpers. of those two, only one would risk openly lying to make their point. so I am going with some Trumpy stooge.

edit: I just remembered that none of this was done openly.  there is literally nobody associated with that site.  so, I guess it could be someone who is anti-pharma, too.

I think these people are like anti-vaxxers. There is an agenda. Could be trumpets, most likely are. The medical community won’t change, but people no longer believe experts, and by putting enough information on the net, they will make it seem like there is a controversy. They may be true believers, or sick individuals who like to cause chaos. I think it is a sign of the times. We have become so distrustful of expertise, we are willing to hurt ourselves. I am not confident we can fix it

Become? From the early 1830s:

But what disturbed de Tocqueville was the way in which, in the United States, people of no distinction, in terms of education, skill, experience or talent would refuse to defer to what de Tocqueville called their ‘natural superiors’, as he put it. They were inspired – he believed – by an unwillingness to bow before any kind of authority. They refused to think that someone could be better than them just because they had trained to be a doctor, studied the law for two decades or had written some good books. link

[pulmonarymd]

Jan 31, 2021 18:07:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 31, 2021 17:53:55 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I think these people are like anti-vaxxers. There is an agenda. Could be trumpets, most likely are. The medical community won’t change, but people no longer believe experts, and by putting enough information on the net, they will make it seem like there is a controversy. They may be true believers, or sick individuals who like to cause chaos. I think it is a sign of the times. We have become so distrustful of expertise, we are willing to hurt ourselves. I am not confident we can fix it

Become? From the early 1830s:

But what disturbed de Tocqueville was the way in which, in the United States, people of no distinction, in terms of education, skill, experience or talent would refuse to defer to what de Tocqueville called their ‘natural superiors’, as he put it. They were inspired – he believed – by an unwillingness to bow before any kind of authority. They refused to think that someone could be better than them just because they had trained to be a doctor, studied the law for two decades or had written some good books. link

I agree we have always had an anti-intellectual streak. I do not believe it was as prevalent and pervasive. It has become infinitely worse, and the internet has exacerbated it. If we do not fix this, we will lose our economic advantage. As I said, I am not confident we will break this fever

[busymom]

One of my Trump-loving friends had just passed along something on Facebook claiming that Hydroxychloroqine works.  Of course, she is among those who believe Trump had nothing to do with the storming of the Capital.  Yes, she's college-educated, so there's really no excuse for believing any of Trump's lies, other than either being an ultra-Christian conservative, or just plain being anti-intellectual.  

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2021 18:17:32 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:07:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Become? From the early 1830s:

But what disturbed de Tocqueville was the way in which, in the United States, people of no distinction, in terms of education, skill, experience or talent would refuse to defer to what de Tocqueville called their ‘natural superiors’, as he put it. They were inspired – he believed – by an unwillingness to bow before any kind of authority. They refused to think that someone could be better than them just because they had trained to be a doctor, studied the law for two decades or had written some good books. link

I agree we have always had an anti-intellectual streak. I do not believe it was as prevalent and pervasive. It has become infinitely worse, and the internet has exacerbated it. If we do not fix this, we will lose our economic advantage. As I said, I am not confident we will break this fever

The internet simply allowed it to move off the stool at the end of the bar and into every home.

I was raised in a working class family environment. Both my grandfathers dropped out of elementary school and did manual labor their whole lifes. My parents made it through high school. A few relatives made it to college but then had little to nothing to do with the family. My father was a full-time enlisted clerk with a state national guard. Mother didn't work until kids (and Dad) were gone. I went to schools serving predominantly working class neighborhoods. I served over 6 years enlisted service in the Navy. I have not seen a growth in anti-intellectualism in my experiences. It was always there in strong doses.

[pulmonarymd]

Jan 31, 2021 18:44:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:17:32 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I agree we have always had an anti-intellectual streak. I do not believe it was as prevalent and pervasive. It has become infinitely worse, and the internet has exacerbated it. If we do not fix this, we will lose our economic advantage. As I said, I am not confident we will break this fever

The internet simply allowed it to move off the stool at the end of the bar and into every home.

I was raised in a working class family environment. Both my grandfathers dropped out of elementary school and did manual labor their whole lifes. My parents made it through high school. A few relatives made it to college but then had little to nothing to do with the family. My father was a full-time enlisted clerk with a state national guard. Mother didn't work until kids (and Dad) were gone. I went to schools serving predominantly working class neighborhoods. I served over 6 years enlisted service in the Navy. I have not seen a growth in anti-intellectualism in my experiences. It was always there in strong doses.

The internet allows for the like-minded to interact more easily, and for people to get information that disputes their beliefs more easily. From my viewpoint, the anti-intellectualism surrounding medicine has worsened, and people’s “beliefs” being as important as facts. I think it goes along with the general disregard of facts that is going on.

Your experience is similar to mine. I am the first person to become a physician in my family. Neither parent went to college. In my experience, there was a much greater emphasis on education and belief in expertise

[thyme4change]

Is hydroxychloriquin a generic? Is there any profit in it?

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2021 18:50:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:44:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The internet simply allowed it to move off the stool at the end of the bar and into every home.

I was raised in a working class family environment. Both my grandfathers dropped out of elementary school and did manual labor their whole lifes. My parents made it through high school. A few relatives made it to college but then had little to nothing to do with the family. My father was a full-time enlisted clerk with a state national guard. Mother didn't work until kids (and Dad) were gone. I went to schools serving predominantly working class neighborhoods. I served over 6 years enlisted service in the Navy. I have not seen a growth in anti-intellectualism in my experiences. It was always there in strong doses.

The internet allows for the like-minded to interact more easily, and for people to get information that disputes their beliefs more easily. From my viewpoint, the anti-intellectualism surrounding medicine has worsened, and people’s “beliefs” being as important as facts. I think it goes along with the general disregard of facts that is going on.

Your experience is similar to mine. I am the first person to become a physician in my family. Neither parent went to college. In my experience, there was a much greater emphasis on education and belief in expertise

More schooling More education

[laterbloomer]

I do the same thing for stuff I believe. I don't do huge research beyond the obvious. Even if I agree there are some obvious crack pot sites I don't use as a reliable source. But if it looks legit and doesn"t sound nuts I don't do a major background check.
I think they are a bunch of crack pots but not really for not questioning a legit looking site more. Didn't Trump himself prove it doesn't work? He took it and then got a bad case of Covid. Doesn't that prove it doesn't work?

[djAdvocate]

Jan 31, 2021 18:17:32 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:07:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Become? From the early 1830s:

But what disturbed de Tocqueville was the way in which, in the United States, people of no distinction, in terms of education, skill, experience or talent would refuse to defer to what de Tocqueville called their ‘natural superiors’, as he put it. They were inspired – he believed – by an unwillingness to bow before any kind of authority. They refused to think that someone could be better than them just because they had trained to be a doctor, studied the law for two decades or had written some good books. link

I agree we have always had an anti-intellectual streak. I do not believe it was as prevalent and pervasive. It has become infinitely worse, and the internet has exacerbated it. If we do not fix this, we will lose our economic advantage. As I said, I am not confident we will break this fever

I am not so sure about this.

I think it has been worse in the past, and is gradually getting better.  the difference between then and now is that in the past, people more willingly acquiesced to their leaders, and in general those leaders had better character than they do today.  I would also add that the internet has added a whole new wrinkle to the problem.  now, the ignorant can come together more easily with other ignorant people, so there is less social stigma, self analysis and isolation associated with being stone cold stupid.  other stone cold stupid people will like you on FB, and praise you on Twitter.

this is a very dangerous time, imo.  but fortunately, we are also less industrious and more sedentary than we once were.  therefore, a violent revolution is less likely than it was in frontier times, imo.

it is a very fluid situation, tho.  could get better.  could get much worse.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 31, 2021 19:09:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Is hydroxychloriquin a generic? Is there any profit in it?

yes.  and no, there is no $$ in it.

I think that is part of where this argument lies: in distrust of big pharma.  and I get that.  I really do.  but these drugs are likely to cost the vaccinated NOTHING in the final analysis, and be highly effective.  so I don't understand the anti-vaxxer position at all in this case- HCQ is vaccinated.  it is just ineffective.  if you LIKE vaccinations, then by all means, shoot yourself up.  but that is why I never mentioned anti-vaxxers before this post.

they are not talking about Covid being a hoax.  they are not REALLY even talking about the vaccines being ineffective.  but they are howling mad that we weren't all given HCQ back in July, and think it is WHY we are where we are- and that is complete rubbish, of course.  verifiable rubbish.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 31, 2021 19:30:02 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I do the same thing for stuff I believe. I don't do huge research beyond the obvious. Even if I agree there are some obvious crack pot sites I don't use as a reliable source. But if it looks legit and doesn"t sound nuts I don't do a major background check.
I think they are a bunch of crack pots but not really for not questioning a legit looking site more. Didn't Trump himself prove it doesn't work? He took it and then got a bad case of Covid. Doesn't that prove it doesn't work?

the guy I was arguing with in post 1 is looking at my link.

I am sure he will find fault with it, but he IS looking.

edit: he came back with a red herring argument about face masks.

I told him that we could go on to other subjects later, but we had

to finish our discussion about HCQ first. 

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2021 20:00:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:17:32 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I agree we have always had an anti-intellectual streak. I do not believe it was as prevalent and pervasive. It has become infinitely worse, and the internet has exacerbated it. If we do not fix this, we will lose our economic advantage. As I said, I am not confident we will break this fever

I am not so sure about this.

I think it has been worse in the past, and is gradually getting better.  the difference between then and now is that in the past, people more willingly acquiesced to their leaders, and in general those leaders had better character than they do today.  I would also add that the internet has added a whole new wrinkle to the problem.  now, the ignorant can come together more easily with other ignorant people, so there is less social stigma, self analysis and isolation associated with being stone cold stupid.  other stone cold stupid people will like you on FB, and praise you on Twitter.

this is a very dangerous time, imo.  but fortunately, we are also less industrious and more sedentary than we once were.  therefore, a violent revolution is less likely than it was in frontier times, imo.

it is a very fluid situation, tho.  could get better.  could get much worse.

I think it was the frontier which made those times less likely for revolution. Now there is no place where people can escape. I would accept the people in frontier times stood a better chance for successful revolution.

[djAdvocate]

so my little friend in NY eventually admitted that the studies don't show that HCQ is effective against Covid.

NOW his complaint is that the media has not covered it since July. I said to him "of course it hasn't. why would the media want to cover an ineffective medication for Covid19 during a pandemic of Covid19? who would that serve?"

he seems to think that because a bunch of people "believe" shit, that the MEDIA should feed those beliefs. just. fucking. no.

the media is there to inform people of breaking developments that impact their lives, not drag them into delusions that could possibly kill them. if you want that kind of media, join a death cult.

jesus. this is a fucked up country.

[laterbloomer]

Feb 2, 2021 21:17:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so my little friend in NY eventually admitted that the studies don't show that HCQ is effective against Covid.

NOW his complaint is that the media has not covered it since July. I said to him "of course it hasn't. why would the media want to cover an ineffective medication for Covid19 during a pandemic of Covid19? who would that serve?"

he seems to think that because a bunch of people "believe" shit, that the MEDIA should feed those beliefs. just. fucking. no.

the media is there to inform people of breaking developments that impact their lives, not drag them into delusions that could possibly kill them. if you want that kind of media, join a death cult.

jesus. this is a fucked up country.

The media has covered it. They informed the public that it is not a legit treatment. Him not liking what the media said is not the same as them not covering it.

[billisonboard]

"Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead" 

[dondub]

Feb 2, 2021 21:56:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead" 

Have had a lot of fun with that over the years.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

My sister posted a link as to a physician who apparently is still on board with this drug.  I don't see how they are still going on about it being a conspiracy.  It is an old drug that is cheaper than the new varieties.  Do they really think that it is as effective, that physicians wouldn't be giving it out if they thought it would save lives?  I just can't understand this illogical logic.  I'll have to go see if I can't find this clip - it's frustrating that so many people believe this.  


rumble.com/vctx45-covid-and-the-vaccine.html

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 2, 2021 21:17:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so my little friend in NY eventually admitted that the studies don't show that HCQ is effective against Covid.

NOW his complaint is that the media has not covered it since July. I said to him "of course it hasn't. why would the media want to cover an ineffective medication for Covid19 during a pandemic of Covid19? who would that serve?"

he seems to think that because a bunch of people "believe" shit, that the MEDIA should feed those beliefs. just. fucking. no.

the media is there to inform people of breaking developments that impact their lives, not drag them into delusions that could possibly kill them. if you want that kind of media, join a death cult.

jesus. this is a fucked up country.

I still see a few random Facebook posts related to HCQ. I says ask them if it was so effective, why didn’t trump receive it as a treatment? I usually get crickets

[djAdvocate]

Jan 31, 2021 18:34:35 GMT -5 busymom said:

One of my Trump-loving friends had just passed along something on Facebook claiming that Hydroxychloroqine works.  Of course, she is among those who believe Trump had nothing to do with the storming of the Capital.  Yes, she's college-educated, so there's really no excuse for believing any of Trump's lies, other than either being an ultra-Christian conservative, or just plain being anti-intellectual.  

I would bet any amount of money that they will or have referenced the site or any of half a dozen sister sites of the one in the OP.

if so, that site says that 67% of the studies show that it improves outcomes. that is a ridiculous stat for two reasons. one is that only SEVEN studies (out of over 200 on the site) are peer reviewed. and the second is that NONE of the peer reviewed studies show that it improves outcomes.

you can start off by asking them to assert whether they believe in science. if they don't, unfriend them. if they do, point out the facts, which are not in their favor.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 3, 2021 14:49:52 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

My sister posted a link as to a physician who apparently is still on board with this drug.  I don't see how they are still going on about it being a conspiracy.  It is an old drug that is cheaper than the new varieties.  Do they really think that it is as effective, that physicians wouldn't be giving it out if they thought it would save lives?  I just can't understand this illogical logic.  I'll have to go see if I can't find this clip - it's frustrating that so many people believe this.  


rumble.com/vctx45-covid-and-the-vaccine.html

what is cheaper than free?  because that is what most people can expect to pay for it.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 3, 2021 18:49:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 2, 2021 21:17:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

so my little friend in NY eventually admitted that the studies don't show that HCQ is effective against Covid.

NOW his complaint is that the media has not covered it since July. I said to him "of course it hasn't. why would the media want to cover an ineffective medication for Covid19 during a pandemic of Covid19? who would that serve?"

he seems to think that because a bunch of people "believe" shit, that the MEDIA should feed those beliefs. just. fucking. no.

the media is there to inform people of breaking developments that impact their lives, not drag them into delusions that could possibly kill them. if you want that kind of media, join a death cult.

jesus. this is a fucked up country.

I still see a few random Facebook posts related to HCQ. I says ask them if it was so effective, why didn’t trump receive it as a treatment? I usually get crickets

the other germane point is that you had the POTUS supporting this nonsense.  do you think for ONE SECOND if there were ANY basis for it (even the slightest doubt) that it would NOT have been widely distributed as a fixer for covid?

I honestly don't know how one can walk around that question.

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 3, 2021 20:57:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 3, 2021 18:49:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I still see a few random Facebook posts related to HCQ. I says ask them if it was so effective, why didn’t trump receive it as a treatment? I usually get crickets

the other germane point is that you had the POTUS supporting this nonsense.  do you think for ONE SECOND if there were ANY basis for it (even the slightest doubt) that it would NOT have been widely distributed as a fixer for covid?

I honestly don't know how one can walk around that question.

And yet, when he got Covid he had the same treatment plan that I did (except I got my antibodies from convalescent plasma). I remind people that he didn’t receive HCQ and I get crickets

[djAdvocate]

Feb 3, 2021 21:22:55 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 3, 2021 20:57:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the other germane point is that you had the POTUS supporting this nonsense.  do you think for ONE SECOND if there were ANY basis for it (even the slightest doubt) that it would NOT have been widely distributed as a fixer for covid?

I honestly don't know how one can walk around that question.

And yet, when he got Covid he had the same treatment plan that I did (except I got my antibodies from convalescent plasma). I remind people that he didn’t receive HCQ and I get crickets

I guess we could also point out that Herman Cain DID get HCQ and.....well......

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 3, 2021 21:27:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 3, 2021 21:22:55 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

And yet, when he got Covid he had the same treatment plan that I did (except I got my antibodies from convalescent plasma). I remind people that he didn’t receive HCQ and I get crickets

I guess we could also point out that Herman Cain DID get HCQ and.....well......

I didn’t know Herman Cain‘s treatment plan.

I honestly have no idea why anyone is so hellbent on HCQ. They dig their heels in and can’t let go. Yet trump got a treatment plan that actually works. Why can’t people see that??