GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Nov 15, 2020 14:31:16 GMT -5
Thank you. Your post detailing your own plans was really helpful. (Is DD2 the med student?) I have no concerns that ODS and his DGF will be out and about while here. They haven't been while SIP. ODS caught Epstein-Barr Mono several years ago and that virus devastated him. He spent 5 days in the hospital with severe dehydration and jaundice as the virus attacked his liver. It was a year and a half before he felt and looked like his usual self. He is rightfully respectful of the Covid virus as a result. And he cannot get a flu shot due to concerns about Guillain Barre. So, he'll hang out at home and/or hike the many trails near our house when he's not sleeping, eating, or working out. It's really just the integration into the bubble that DH and I have formed that I am concerned about. I know there are no certainties in life, nor with respect to Covid, but I am curious what steps others will take to merge college kids back into their own bubbles. OMG! Is this why when I had a flu shot I got seriously ill? I had a severe case of mono when I was 19. I had it so bad my throat nearly completely closed and they had to give me some unusual drugs to help me be able to swallow and breathe. I was in bed for nearly a month. I'll go read about this. Thanks for posting it. At this point, the connection has only been linked to Epstein Barr Mono. Many other viruses cause Mono, so don't assume the worst.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 15, 2020 14:33:45 GMT -5
I had mono twice (I know the virus stays with you but I had it at 19 and then when my body revolted at 22 the virus worked itself back up to full mono and symptoms again) as well as some autoimmune and my doctor insists pretty hard that I get the flu shot.
From what I know it's only if you got Guillain-Barré that you shouldn't take the flu shot. Which is not just a bad case of mono.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 15, 2020 14:35:13 GMT -5
I had mono when I was in 4th grade. I haven't had any problems with the flu shot, but haven't gotten it that often either. Should I stop getting it in the future, I wonder? Research is ongoing, but it appears, at this time, that the connection between Guillain-Barre and Epstein-Barr Mono is based upon the severity of the case of Mono AND whether it was Epstein-Barr Mono (many viruses can cause Mono). Folks who had serious bouts of Epstein-Barr Mono are thought to have hyper-sensitive Epstein-Barr T cells which, when exposed to the flu vaccine, can lead to Guillain-Barre. Epstein-Barr is also thought to be a cause of some autoimmune diseases such as MS. It is a nasty, nasty, virus. But, again, you can have Mono causes by many other viruses other than Epstein Barr. I see. Thank you for the information. I have no idea what kind of mono it was, since I was so young. I only knew I was sick for a while, and my dad mentioned some years later that it was mono.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 15, 2020 14:35:22 GMT -5
Reality needs to factor into this. My son lives off campus. If he stayed there, he runs the risk of being exposed to any roommate who went home, then returns to their apartment. Bringing all these kids back to the area of the school after they have been exposed to all these other people is potentially a disaster. So, now what is less risk. Have him come home and SIP with us, or have him now be exposed after Thanksgiving. In addition, does he then stay there for Christmas and through the New Year? That would not be good mentally for him, so it is a risk/benefit calculation. If he comes to his hometown, do you make him stay at a hotel for 2 weeks? Where is he eating? He stays in the hotel room without leaving? Or, he can be home helping us do what we need to do, and potentially doing some things to keep our risk down. Since the virus is basically widespread, it is difficult to manage. There is a difference between having 4 people and 20. Some kind of common sense needs to apply here. Which is, in part, why the colleges are wisely closing up before Thanksgiving. But that still means millions of kids are about to fan out across the country in the next 10 days. I agree that there is a risk/benefit calculation. I just feel like all of the "official" guidance is that "your brother-in-law's sister will infect everyone on Thanksgiving so don't celebrate with folks outside your household" with no consideration being given how to merge your own kid back into your bubble. Trust me, I do understand the mental and emotional health aspect of it all. I hadn't seem ODS since February when I managed to successfully and safely visit him outdoors at the end of October. And it wasn't so much the lost 8 months, but I was driven to make the trip to see him because I didn't know when I would see him again as we move into "dark winter" (or, if ever). He was definitely feeling the isolation and asked us to please come visit. When a young, relatively independent, adult asks to see his parents, you go. I understand that nothing is foolproof. But for the safest possible outcome, do we just open the door? Does everyone get tested even though the test is only determinative in that moment? Do we wear masks? Do we isolate inside the house for 2 weeks. Some combination? Hope for the best? I'm thinking some length of quarantine inside the house (they can have the living room, den, and their own bathroom and relatively direct access to the outdoors), masks inside for the first few days, opening doors and windows (in New England!) from time to time to freshen the air, washing hands, washing hands, washing hands, eating at a distance will give us the best possible chance. Am I missing anything? I think we all have to do what we can live with. We normally have 8-12 for Thanksgiving. We will have 4. Testing can help in that they test positive, you can do all that. Negative tests are a snapshot in time, and are frequently a false negative early on in the infection, and offer a false sense of security. Limiting exposure 7-14 days before travel is helpful. Since the virus aerosolizes, and can linger in the air, people do not sleep with masks on, and few of us have negative pressure rooms in our house, and the likelihood that you or I are going to be able to open enough windows to ensure adequate airflow given the weather up here, there will be inherent risk allowing anyone you are not consistently exposed to in your house. All of what you outlined decreases your risk, but does not eliminate it. I just do not know how practical it is. You need to decide the lengths you wish to d go to keep everyone safe. Somewhere between none and everyone wears masks 24 hours a day, and stays in their own room is where everyone will land. I have no data driven advice that could tell you how much each added action you take decreases your risk. I think the reason no one is giving advice except for don't do it is because the people who were supposed to look out for us and come up with guidance have given up. FYI, I do not believe we will be as good as you are planning
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Nov 15, 2020 14:44:42 GMT -5
I had mono twice (I know the virus stays with you but I had it at 19 and then when my body revolted at 22 the virus worked itself back up to full mono and symptoms again) as well as some autoimmune and my doctor insists pretty hard that I get the flu shot. From what I know it's only if you got Guillain-Barré that you shouldn't take the flu shot. Which is not just a bad case of mono. Might depend upon where you live, but, here, before you get a flu shot, you fill out a questionnaire that specifically asks if you had Epstein-Barr Mono and, if the answer is yes, most providers won't administer it. Because my family's luck is just that bad, YDS also had Epstein-Barr Mono, and, like you, had it twice (documented, ER visits, medical leave from college X 2) and also cannot get the flu shot because of Guillain-Barre concerns. They could get blood tests to look for the current presence of Epstein-Barr so that their doctor could safely recommend the flu shot, but both kids (in their 20s) decided against pursuing that route. We're generally a healthy bunch, but when we get sick, we get really, really, sick. I think they've decided to chance the flu over Guillain-Barre.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Nov 15, 2020 14:45:57 GMT -5
Which is, in part, why the colleges are wisely closing up before Thanksgiving. But that still means millions of kids are about to fan out across the country in the next 10 days. I agree that there is a risk/benefit calculation. I just feel like all of the "official" guidance is that "your brother-in-law's sister will infect everyone on Thanksgiving so don't celebrate with folks outside your household" with no consideration being given how to merge your own kid back into your bubble. Trust me, I do understand the mental and emotional health aspect of it all. I hadn't seem ODS since February when I managed to successfully and safely visit him outdoors at the end of October. And it wasn't so much the lost 8 months, but I was driven to make the trip to see him because I didn't know when I would see him again as we move into "dark winter" (or, if ever). He was definitely feeling the isolation and asked us to please come visit. When a young, relatively independent, adult asks to see his parents, you go. I understand that nothing is foolproof. But for the safest possible outcome, do we just open the door? Does everyone get tested even though the test is only determinative in that moment? Do we wear masks? Do we isolate inside the house for 2 weeks. Some combination? Hope for the best? I'm thinking some length of quarantine inside the house (they can have the living room, den, and their own bathroom and relatively direct access to the outdoors), masks inside for the first few days, opening doors and windows (in New England!) from time to time to freshen the air, washing hands, washing hands, washing hands, eating at a distance will give us the best possible chance. Am I missing anything? I think we all have to do what we can live with. We normally have 8-12 for Thanksgiving. We will have 4. Testing can help in that they test positive, you can do all that. Negative tests are a snapshot in time, and are frequently a false negative early on in the infection, and offer a false sense of security. Limiting exposure 7-14 days before travel is helpful. Since the virus aerosolizes, and can linger in the air, people do not sleep with masks on, and few of us have negative pressure rooms in our house, and the likelihood that you or I are going to be able to open enough windows to ensure adequate airflow given the weather up here, there will be inherent risk allowing anyone you are not consistently exposed to in your house. All of what you outlined decreases your risk, but does not eliminate it. I just do not know how practical it is. You need to decide the lengths you wish to d go to keep everyone safe. Somewhere between none and everyone wears masks 24 hours a day, and stays in their own room is where everyone will land. I have no data driven advice that could tell you how much each added action you take decreases your risk. I think the reason no one is giving advice except for don't do it is because the people who were supposed to look out for us and come up with guidance have given up. FYI, I do not believe we will be as good as you are planning This. So much this. Fauci has been silenced.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 15:03:59 GMT -5
I had no idea. I did have Epstein-Barr mono. I was tested for it at the time and warned it could have future implications.
Interestingly, I wonder if it has anything to do with my polycythemia. It appears from some quick research that it sometimes does.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Nov 15, 2020 16:29:47 GMT -5
I agree with Rukh. My DD2 is in college and coming home for the holiday season even though she has an apartment there. She's isolating in her room (shared house) for the most part for 2 weeks and will take a covid test 4 days before coming home. With a negative test, she'll come home, be careful, and we'll assume the best. Spread out in the house and limited physical contact . She won't leave again until the new year. All the kids have been told that there is no leaving the house except to hike with household members. If you do, don't come back. So she knows she could end up back in apartment for the holidays. I'm hoping no one challenges me. We have to be very careful as I'm on immunosuppresants. It is what it is. I'd like to be here next year for them. Thank you. Your post detailing your own plans was really helpful. (Is DD2 the med student?) I have no concerns that ODS and his DGF will be out and about while here. They haven't been while SIP. ODS caught Epstein-Barr Mono several years ago and that virus devastated him. He spent 5 days in the hospital with severe dehydration and jaundice as the virus attacked his liver. It was a year and a half before he felt and looked like his usual self. He is rightfully respectful of the Covid virus as a result. And he cannot get a flu shot due to concerns about Guillain Barre. So, he'll hang out at home and/or hike the many trails near our house when he's not sleeping, eating, or working out. It's really just the integration into the bubble that DH and I have formed that I am concerned about. I know there are no certainties in life, nor with respect to Covid, but I am curious what steps others will take to merge college kids back into their own bubbles. No, the student doctor is DD1. I have 4 kids. DS1 is well launched and not coming home, DD1 is the student doctor who was exposed via a patient and is now in quarantine in her room and pissed she may have exposed me (patient lied about exposure because she didn't want the hassle of going to a different clinic that is set up for possible exposure patients), DS2 lives at home and is trying to get his act together, and DD2 who is the one coming home from college. Oh, and gramma and DH are in the mix too
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 15, 2020 16:34:04 GMT -5
I had mono twice (I know the virus stays with you but I had it at 19 and then when my body revolted at 22 the virus worked itself back up to full mono and symptoms again) as well as some autoimmune and my doctor insists pretty hard that I get the flu shot. From what I know it's only if you got Guillain-Barré that you shouldn't take the flu shot. Which is not just a bad case of mono. Might depend upon where you live, but, here, before you get a flu shot, you fill out a questionnaire that specifically asks if you had Epstein-Barr Mono and, if the answer is yes, most providers won't administer it. Because my family's luck is just that bad, YDS also had Epstein-Barr Mono, and, like you, had it twice (documented, ER visits, medical leave from college X 2) and also cannot get the flu shot because of Guillain-Barre concerns. They could get blood tests to look for the current presence of Epstein-Barr so that their doctor could safely recommend the flu shot, but both kids (in their 20s) decided against pursuing that route. We're generally a healthy bunch, but when we get sick, we get really, really, sick. I think they've decided to chance the flu over Guillain-Barre. It was the EBV version for me, but for flu shots it only asks if you've been diagnosed with Guillain-Barre here.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 15, 2020 20:33:04 GMT -5
Most people have EB virus antibodies, which means that once upon a time they were exposed to the virus. We did a research project years ago where we needed to use an EB infected cell line and everyone in the lab got tested to see who got to deal with the cell line. Everyone was positive in the lab, so it wasn’t a problem of trying to keep those who had not been exposed unexposed.
None of us in the lab remembered having mono either.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 16, 2020 6:42:42 GMT -5
You do realize the flu can cause guillemot barre syndrome?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 16, 2020 12:24:11 GMT -5
Is the college doing waste water testing? In a lot of ways I feel like the colleges are pretty insular and controlling the spread really well in difficult settings.
I'd want to make sure their dorm isnt showing traces of the virus from the waste water testing, sip at college for 2 weeks, rapid test before coming home, sip at home with minimal family contact and another rapid test 1 week after arrival.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 16, 2020 12:54:13 GMT -5
Is the college doing waste water testing? In a lot of ways I feel like the colleges are pretty insular and controlling the spread really well in difficult settings. I'd want to make sure their dorm isnt showing traces of the virus from the waste water testing, sip at college for 2 weeks, rapid test before coming home, sip at home with minimal family contact and another rapid test 1 week after arrival. If you're going to go to that degree - it should be a PCR test. Rapids have a high rate of false negatives that I wouldn't rely on if you were are the type to require weeks of quarantine.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 16, 2020 13:21:22 GMT -5
Is the college doing waste water testing? In a lot of ways I feel like the colleges are pretty insular and controlling the spread really well in difficult settings. I'd want to make sure their dorm isnt showing traces of the virus from the waste water testing, sip at college for 2 weeks, rapid test before coming home, sip at home with minimal family contact and another rapid test 1 week after arrival. If you're going to go to that degree - it should be a PCR test. Rapids have a high rate of false negatives that I wouldn't rely on if you were are the type to require weeks of quarantine. I know the rapids have faults, but I think its similar to the issue of waiting days for results. When dh was tested they gave both at the same visit so we had rapid results and then waited 4 days for the swab results. I also wouldnt limit the kid to their bedroom, but stay distanced as possible for the first week to 10 days at home, more cleaning, etc. Otherwise, sip whether at school or at home shouldnt change much, just a little extra cautios as their circle of people transitions.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 16, 2020 13:29:23 GMT -5
If you're going to go to that degree - it should be a PCR test. Rapids have a high rate of false negatives that I wouldn't rely on if you were are the type to require weeks of quarantine. I know the rapids have faults, but I think its similar to the issue of waiting days for results. When dh was tested they gave both at the same visit so we had rapid results and then waited 4 days for the swab results. I also wouldnt limit the kid to their bedroom, but stay distanced as possible for the first week to 10 days at home, more cleaning, etc. Otherwise, sip whether at school or at home shouldnt change much, just a little extra cautios as their circle of people transitions. Just stumbled upon this graph. Didn't dig into sources - but assuming it's true shines some light into the different tests.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 16, 2020 13:45:09 GMT -5
Rapid tests pick up about 30% of asymptomatic infections. Much more accurate when the person being tested is symptomatic. Can be useful in a test every day scenario, as you can isolate people as soon as they test positive, and limit the spread. But a onetime screening? Would not put that much faith in one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 14:41:31 GMT -5
Elon Musk - attention whore just like the Trump. IMHO
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 16, 2020 16:19:45 GMT -5
Difference is that Musk actually is smart, and has a company that makes some impressive things. Trump is a snake oil salesman
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 19:45:10 GMT -5
He's smart, but he's also a narcissist and an attention whore.
His post about positive COVID tests being fake was very irresponsible.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 16, 2020 22:10:47 GMT -5
True, but genius is frequently accompanied by assholery. Musk will at least contribute to the betterment of society in some way, despite his warts. Trump has just been a waste of humanity without any redeeming qualities
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Nov 16, 2020 22:25:57 GMT -5
That was irresponsible but it does illustrate the limitations of the rapid test. That is an issue if people continue to rely on them as this ramps up again. What if someone only got one and continued to spread it? That is a big problem for the country.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 16, 2020 22:36:01 GMT -5
That was irresponsible but it does illustrate the limitations of the rapid test. That is an issue if people continue to rely on them as this ramps up again. What if someone only got one and continued to spread it? That is a big problem for the country. Isn't that pretty much happened with the White House? They relied on rapid tests I believe.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 17, 2020 8:16:35 GMT -5
Supposedly. There is doubt that they were really testing as vigorously as they should have
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 17, 2020 8:28:47 GMT -5
Isn't the rapid test what college and pro football are using?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 11:44:49 GMT -5
That was irresponsible but it does illustrate the limitations of the rapid test. That is an issue if people continue to rely on them as this ramps up again. What if someone only got one and continued to spread it? That is a big problem for the country. In rural OR counties, when there are too many cases and the state decides COVID is community spread, then they send in the rapid tests and do a testing event where anyone who wants a test can get one. Otherwise, you have to have active symptoms or a confirmed contact with someone who tested positive. Without one or the other, you still can't get tested here. If you are ill, you are to stay home unless you can't breathe. They had a community event here last week and tested 160 people with the rapid tests. Four were positive. They re-test the positives with the other tests to confirm them. People who tested negative are left believing they aren't/can't be positive. There was no mention of the failure rate. They touted the percentage of negatives as "great for our area" because it warps the statistics so they can keep the schools open. It's all a numbers game at this point.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Nov 17, 2020 17:18:49 GMT -5
That was irresponsible but it does illustrate the limitations of the rapid test. That is an issue if people continue to rely on them as this ramps up again. What if someone only got one and continued to spread it? That is a big problem for the country. In rural OR counties, when there are too many cases and the state decides COVID is community spread, then they send in the rapid tests and do a testing event where anyone who wants a test can get one. Otherwise, you have to have active symptoms or a confirmed contact with someone who tested positive. Without one or the other, you still can't get tested here. If you are ill, you are to stay home unless you can't breathe. They had a community event here last week and tested 160 people with the rapid tests. Four were positive. They re-test the positives with the other tests to confirm them. People who tested negative are left believing they aren't/can't be positive. There was no mention of the failure rate. They touted the percentage of negatives as "great for our area" because it warps the statistics so they can keep the schools open. It's all a numbers game at this point. That sounds awful. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with us. At this point there’s really no excuse for not being able to get tested. And how the hell is someone supposed to get proper treatment for COVID if they wait until they have a foot in the grave to start treatment? if I had kids in college, I would’ve been pushing hard for them to just do online school this year, even if it means they would be mostly taking a gap year. If your kid got into Harvard, that would be one thing, but I really don’t understand those parents that send their kids after some generic college that hasn’t done much online instruction when there’s so many other colleges that have been doing online teaching for years. Thankfully, DH’s college and department are experts at online instruction, so he hasn’t gone in for a month, and was barely there before that. And they had said at the beginning of the semester that there was no way in hell they were going to have any in person classes after Thanksgiving, which makes sense. Too many people traveling and going to large gatherings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 18:53:26 GMT -5
As far as I know, the stay home unless you can't breathe is the standard recommendation.
There isn't a ton they can/will do for you unless/until you need ventilation.
They are trying to protect the health care workers from contact with the virus and keep it out of their ERs as much as possible.
I've seen studies that talk about the reason so many people in the US are dying is due to the fact you can't see a doctor until you have too much virus and your symptoms have gotten too bad.
I bought a pulse-ox and was told if it read under 90 then I could go to the covid ER tent but had to call and get approval first. If you show up to the tent and your O2 is higher than that, then they send you home.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 17, 2020 19:59:06 GMT -5
You get sent home because there is no treatment. There is no conspiracy, and there is no nefarious plan. Unless you need oxygen, all you would be doing in a hospital is take up space
ETA: since there is no treatment for mild cases, it does not matter if you get sent home, as it makes no difference
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Nov 17, 2020 20:18:26 GMT -5
Back to the original point of the thread - DS5's very large university said today that despite it being obvious that they would exceed 100 positive cases on campus before the end of the week, they would not be changing to remote earlier than the planned Thanksgiving break.
The reasoning - dropping to remote would mean students might leave early, and not get the mandatory Covid test before going home.
They were always planning for no in person classes after Thanksgiving, and spring semester is delayed until February with no spring break. DS5 has been fully remote and living at home, so moot point for him.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 19, 2020 14:00:21 GMT -5
As far as I know, the stay home unless you can't breathe is the standard recommendation. There isn't a ton they can/will do for you unless/until you need ventilation. They are trying to protect the health care workers from contact with the virus and keep it out of their ERs as much as possible. I've seen studies that talk about the reason so many people in the US are dying is due to the fact you can't see a doctor until you have too much virus and your symptoms have gotten too bad. I bought a pulse-ox and was told if it read under 90 then I could go to the covid ER tent but had to call and get approval first. If you show up to the tent and your O2 is higher than that, then they send you home. But what do you expect to be done? At this point, I know about 20-25 people that have had Covid. One died, three of us were hospitalized and the rest recovered (or are recovering) at home. Do you suggest we clog up the healthcare system with people who will recover with nothing more than a mild cold? My daughter wouldn't have know she had it if she didn't have to get tested for work. She had a very mild summer cold we thought. My friend's mother got tested because she is in a nursing home and they had positive cases (she never got anythign more than tired and a slight sore throat). One cousin refused to get tested (he is one of "its fake news" idiots) but his wife was positive and they both lost their sense of taste and smell (I'm counting him as positive even though he never got tested). A large majority of people will need to stay home, hydrated and rested. We need to keep the hospitals and doctors free to take care of those who do become severe. I can't speak to every state but I can say that I was followed closely by the Pa Dept of Health, the hospital that performed my test and my insurance company. I had all three calling me on a daily basis. They wanted to know my temp, how I was breathing, other symptoms, etc. It was one of them that made me go to the ER because my fever spiked to 104. So just because a person isn't sitting in the doctor's office doesn't mean they aren't being monitored closely.
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