2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 9, 2011 22:22:10 GMT -5
Yes, tough, that's a 6 inch stack of Hundreds. A brown paper bag can handle that. And yes, I've counted cash in the vault. I've seen the way $20s come in shrink wrapped "bricks" from the Fed.
No, I wasn't serious that she'd want to take all 65K in cash! Geez! But, I expect she wanted "immediate cash credit" in her account, or maybe a thousand or so in cash. Most banks will put a hold on a large deposit, even Cashier's checks for a few days.
I buy and sell houses. For a living. I get cashier's checks all the time. I deposit cashier's checks. My bank will usually have some kind of thing that says, I have access to the first $5K overnight (for checks that go thru tonight) then 20K in 3 days, then the balance in 10 days or something like that. That's for Cashier's checks written on a different financial institution. If it were written on MY bank, it would be overnight. (I think.)
Of course, I prefer to have funds wired in.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 9, 2011 22:37:33 GMT -5
Tough,
The Cashier's check was written on an account at Smith-Barney. I believe they are now part of CitiBank?
The recipient takes the check to Wells Fargo. The Wells Fargo people dial a CitiBank check verification system, and the Smith-Barney check doesn't show up. Who knows why. Maybe the Citi system doesn't have the Smith-Barney checks in the system? We just don't know.
No one has presented this check to either Citi or Smith-Barney and had it refused. It has not gone thru the Fed Clearing House.
There is no evidence of fraud here. A simple misunderstanding.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 9, 2011 23:03:07 GMT -5
tough,
As I read GGs description, she said there was a preprinted check number on the Cashier's check, and the stub has a separate number on it that was typed by the clerk making out the check.
The financial guy at SB said the "real" check number was the hand typed one. Hmmm...
Maybe that's the one that was in the "check verification system", but to run thru the Fed Clearing House, the MICR numbers down at the bottom with the ABA Number and Account number are all that matter. The check numbers simply do not matter.
If Wells had accepted the check, it would have gone to their processing center where someone would have keyed in the amount of the check down at the bottom of the check in MICR, and it would have processed on thru the system.
I'm assuming, of course, that the ABA Number and Account number were valid.
As for the interest... it is not the bank's fault that no one tried to cash this check for 2 weeks.
I don't think the S-B guy said it couldn't be cashed. He did say they would re-issue a new one. He alluded to the fact there have been technology issues with the merger of City and SB. Those technology issues might have included having the SB issued Cashier checks be registered into the Citi verification system, but I still maintain that I bet that check would clear if deposited.
Look, I have accounts with Merrill-lynch. When they were merged with BoA, it was all screwed up while they had to reissue new checks and stuff. No fraud was occurring. If a clerk entered the wrong check number on the register, it was a human error. Geez.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 9, 2011 23:25:35 GMT -5
I just went and looked at post 1 and 3 where GG describes the "9 digit Number". I cannot tell from her description what number that is supposed to be. If it is a check number (which I took it to be) or the ABA number or the Account number.
Look, if the check was written on a form with bad ABA or Account numbers on it, yes, the bank has egg on it's face.
I read GGs posts and understood that there might have been confusion about the check numbers. Which do not matter a whit.
Look, let's hope that there was no fraud involved, the money gets wired on Monday, that GG's investment account grows to make up the lost $65k, that the $65k makes a difference in the life of the recipient, and we can go on to something else.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 10, 2011 6:57:29 GMT -5
The bank numbers should be pre-printed on the check. I don't understand how it could be in error? A teller typed in the RIGHT number on the copy or the original piece of paper? This gets weirder all the time.
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Post by isabella on Apr 10, 2011 7:41:34 GMT -5
GG this is awful and not acceptable IMO... call the state Attorney General, they will know if other complaints have been made for the same issue and will have suggestions/advise what to do next. As far as I am concerned this is very suspect. Good luck.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 10, 2011 7:41:36 GMT -5
We won't know exactly what the screw up was until GG goes Monday and gets it straightened out.
On my personal checks, the ABA number is 9 digits on the bottom of my checks. My account number is 10 digits, and my check numbers are 4 digits. However, I have seen checks with 5 digit check numbers, and maybe even more.
An interesting thing is the ABA number of my checking account is not the same ABA number that should be used when funds are wired into my account! It has to do with how the bank came to be what it is... Bank A merged with Bank B, and so on, and Bank B is the one that has the Correspondent relationship with the Fed, so the wires go there... it's all confusing. But it gets there.
tough, when I said I hope GGs money grows, I mean I hope her account balance grows to the point the 65K gets replaced. Do you read every word literally? I don't know how GG had her money invested. It might have been in CDs, it might have been in bonds, it might have been in stocks, options, or cattle futures!
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 10, 2011 8:38:18 GMT -5
Yeah, you're talking about the routing number that's written like a fraction up in the corner.
I don't think anyone has even looked at that in this case. But, again, I bet they're done correctly. I still don't believe there was anything wrong with the check itself. I believe that for some reason it wasn't entereed into the system that would allow someone else to verify the check using the automated voice response system. I think it said it was "Unrecognised". That means it's not in the system. It doesn't mean it is "fraud". It just says it can't verify that it is valid.
tough, I think we all agree that the "right thing" for the bank to do is wire the money over to Wells Fargo, first thing Monday morning. Once the wire hits, then the recipient can go to Wells and write checks, withdraw, transfer, roll around in it to her heart's content. And, yes, they should waive the wire fee.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 10, 2011 14:20:32 GMT -5
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I've learned quite a bit from all of you. Toughtimes and 2 kids- I'm re-reading your posts. A lot of what you said is over my head (to be honest).....but I'm learning a lot from you.
I have a copy of the check itself and my stub. It wasn't a full two weeks. I picked up the check on 3/31 (the funds were withdrawn that day) and immediately carried it to the attorney's office. The recipient was supposed to pick it up the next day (4/1), but for whatever reason, she called the attorney and said she'd pick it up on 4/4. When she did go to pick it up on 4/4, the attorney couldn't find the check (secretary was out ill) and the recipient made an appt to come back on 4/8 to pick it up, which she did.
As far as interest goes, at today's rates, it couldn't be enough to worry about. After reading all these posts, I wish that I had had the presence of mind to tell the recipient to meet me at SB (it was still only 4:30 PM and we were both near their office) to return the check and have them wire transfer the funds to her account immediately. It never even occurred to me. (Hindsight being 20-20 and all)
So now, the plan is to go to SB at 9:00 AM tomorrow (the recipient said she'd bring the check and meet me there), return the old one and get a new one. BUT, before leaving SB, I intend to call Citibank's check verification number and verify for myself that it will go through. Then I will stay around until the check is safely deposited. (Personally, I agree that a wire transfer would be better, but this reciepient is pretty naive about finances and she would probably view a wire transfer with suspicion. She does understand what a cashier's check is). And I'll post what happens.
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Post by debtheaven on Apr 10, 2011 17:38:04 GMT -5
Fingers crossed for tomorrow GG! I am sure it will be fine but I'm sorry you had to go through all this stress.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 10, 2011 17:38:06 GMT -5
I'd talk to Chuck.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Apr 10, 2011 22:49:37 GMT -5
Make sure to photocopy the old, bounced check before you give it back to them. Keep all related information regarding the bad check. Mistake? Possible. But just in case it isn't and the next one bounces, you may need to get a lawyer. Don't let them give you the run around. Make sure you call the 800 # before you leave the building, to make sure that the check is good. Mention that you want to make sure it is good this time. If it isn't, I would not only get a lawyer, but I would mention that litigation could cost them more in lawyers fees than they want to pay.
I guess we live in different times. If it happens again, pull every cent out of there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 6:35:18 GMT -5
Pull every cent out of there anyway.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 11, 2011 7:11:29 GMT -5
"I know it was out of the hands of my advisor. And, yes, I've made plenty of mistakes. But not a $65,000 one. As I've said, the most frustrating part is not being able to reach customer service during working hours."
Lets be a bit realistic though, this isn't a $65,000 mistake. It's a mistake on a $65,000 check that so far has cost you nothing more than some aggravation. The size of the mistake is measured by how much the remedy or mistake costs you. Making a mistake on a $200 check that ends up costing you thousands to remedy is much more serious than a mistake on a $200,000 check that ends up costing you an hour on the phone to resolve the issue.
"When someone takes your money upfront and gives you a bad check, it is theft and whoever signed it is in hot water unless it is remedied."
They are not in hot water anymore than in any other mistake because the legal standard in bad checks is fraud. If they gave you a check knowing it would be dishonored or otherwise not able to be cashed they would be in hot water. As it stands now it's a simple mistake and they're in no more hot water than they would be in any other situation where they made a mistake giving you your money (which can be serious, but clearly doesn't rise to the fraud standard).
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Apr 11, 2011 7:18:46 GMT -5
I would close the account as soon as possible, if for no other reason that they made you look bad. Our financial advisor, a very steady, nice younger person, almost lost our business because he forgot to draw a $2500 check for summer property taxes for one of our properties which we had asked for three weeks previous to it being due. When we hadn't received it in 2 1/2 weeks, I called him and asked him what was going on. He honestly said he had forgotten. I said, " Okay, but we're depending on you to shepherd our money as you have contracted with us, and you're making us look bad...." He aplogized and said that he was aware of it ! He's been more diligent since.
A $65,000 mistake with attitude from the company ? NO WAY ! So sorry this happened to you, and I will not transfer assets to Citi/Smith Barney ever.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 11, 2011 7:36:30 GMT -5
"Yes, but the number is not valid as the bank admitted."
So? This doesn't mean the check won't be honored. It hasn't been presented to them for payment yet. The only thing that can be proven so far is that the check doesn't match the computer system as CB/CS.
I agree that this is a mistake. I agree in holding them responsible. The idea that you're trying to use "bad check" standards in a case where no check has ever been presented makes your entire argument irrevelant though. The argument would have merit if the bank accepted the check, then came back to one of the parties later if CB/CS refused to honor the check for some reason.
I can write you a check any time I want. If the recipient of that check takes it to the bank, and the bank calls me because they're curious if I admit to writing it, I can say "I didn't write that check" all I want. That doesn't have any thing to do with passing bad checks. It has other ramifications, but I have not refused to honor that check, I have no put a stop-pay on that check, and I have not bounced that check.
In the same way that if someone writes me a starter check and I call their bank to ensure funds. The bank says "nope, not enough funds in the account", and I refuse to accept it. That does not constitute check fraud on the part of the person who wrote it, because I haven't presented it for payment. All of this check fraud talk is irrelevant until the check is presented to the issuing party for payment...which it hasn't been.
"Make sure to photocopy the old, bounced check before you give it back to them."
This is really the issue, it's not a bounced check. It hasn't even been presented to them for payment yet.
As far as what I'd do. If this is the first problem you've had with them, I wouldn't bail on one fairly easily rectifiable mistake. If they don't solve the issue quickly I'd probably leave.
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nogooddeed
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Post by nogooddeed on Apr 11, 2011 7:44:47 GMT -5
The check wasn't presented for payment. There is no fraud. If it had been presented for payment, software processing would have cross referenced the old routing and account numbers with the new, correct numbers and payment should have occurred without issue. Yes, I have over 20 years experience in bank operations, including several acquisitions/mergers. Toughtimes you may have worked as a teller for 4 years, but you don't have knowledge of behind the scenes operations.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 11:25:31 GMT -5
karma for you, nogooddeed. That's exactly what I have saying.
GG, how did it go at the bank today?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 11, 2011 12:11:23 GMT -5
OK, I've spent the last 45 minutes at Smith Barney. First they had a heck of a time finding the old check in their computer system son they could void it. It took 30 minutes to void the old check and issue a new one. I took the new one and called Citi's check verification number and got the same response "As of April 8,2011 check number xxxxxxxxx in the amount of $65000 is not available for deposit". Apparently they don't update their verification system in real time?
I told Smith Barney that this was a problem. The branch manager then called the Wells Fargo branch manager. The Wells Fargo branch manager told the SB branch manager that Wells Fargo could take the check, but that the funds would not be available until the check cleared -because of the failure to verify. When asked how long the check would be held, she said "up to 14 days"!!!!!! The Smith Barney manager assured her that the funds were there, but it made no difference.
So the decision was made to wire transfer the funds directly. The problem here is that the check reciepient did not have her account information with her. (Did I mention that she is a twit?)...... So she went home to get her account info which she will telephone to the SB branch manager who will then wire the funds. At this point I don't have a lot of confidence, but there you are. I will text her later for assurance that the funds did get transferred.....
I am not impressed with SB.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 12:31:43 GMT -5
What a freakin' nightmare.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 12:53:29 GMT -5
GG,
A phone call to Wells Fargo could get the wiring instructions. I'm assuming that she has a check or a deposit slip with her? The branch manager at Wells could tell you over the phone the wire needs to go to ABA # xyz, for credit to account number abc, and anything else that needs to go on the wire. (The check/deposit ticket would tell the Wells manager what all they need to know.)
SB would put all that info down on a piece of paper that you would sign, it would go, and the recipient would have her funds in an hour.
I KNOW it can be done. I do it two to three times a year!
By the way, the 14 day thing, is standard banking policy. That is not SB Citi's fault, the same thing happens at my bank.
Which is why I like wires.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Apr 11, 2011 12:57:24 GMT -5
GG - i'd get a suitcase, have SB fill it with hundreds and be done with it all!!
seriously, that is messed up!!
I would change brokerages as soon as i could!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 11, 2011 13:01:55 GMT -5
2kids She had no deposit slip , no check nothing on her. I had assumed that she'd go straight to the bank to deposit.....
I asked the SB manager to email me when the transfer is done.....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 13:05:03 GMT -5
Which is funny because the banks access the money right away now but still play with your deposit for several days.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 13:20:58 GMT -5
GG,
Well, if the twit had no check, deposit slip or anything, how was she going to deposit the check?
The folks at my bank know me, I can call and they can do most anything for me over the phone. The bank manager at Wells could have looked up her account number and given her the wiring instructions.
Folks, Smith-Barney is not a bank, at least I don't think they are. They are a brokerage. They can write Cashier's Checks. They can wire money. But I don't think they have a traditional teller window and keep cash on hand like a regular bank.
GrandMa,
This is exactly how I described it. The original check would have cleared, had it been deposited. It is perfectly normal for a check written for a large amount, even a Cashier's Check, to take some time go thru the Fed Clearing House.
I would bet, even if the recipient were to take this thing, written on Citi, to a Citi branch it would take a few days for her to get her money. They would probably want her to open an account to cash it. They might let her take some small portion, say, $500, as walking around money while the check moves thru the system.
Wires, on the other hand, will move money in an hour or so.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 13:31:22 GMT -5
Actually, zib, the banks DON'T have instant access to your money if you deposit checks. They'll post a credit to the system, which says they think they are owed the money from the issuing bank, but it isn't actually moved until the receiving bank gets the document, and can verify it is genuine.
This delay is used by the scammer to issue bogus "Certified Checks" which victims deposit, and then use as funds to send to someone else. Later when the bogus Certified Check is deemed to be bogus, the funds are reversed. But, it was because the bank initially gave the depositor a credit, thinking the check was real that causes the problem. For a truely large check, like $65,000 they don't want anyone to think they really have the all the money. That's why they will alloy you access to some of the funds, and only later, when the funds have actually left the issuing bank, will they let the depositor really have the money.
Wires work differently. Since there is no paper, (other than the paper authorizing the wire), the computers can verify if funds exist immediately, then extract those funds, and send them to the receiving bank. The receiving bank then can deposit them into the proper account. This process takes about an hour. Sometimes a little longer. But if done early enough during the day, it is a same day transaction.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 11, 2011 13:48:43 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for the SB manager's email that they completed the transfer.
I'm a 40 mile drive from home, so am staying around in case......
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 14:17:01 GMT -5
Hey, GG,
I have a ProBoards mobile app on my iPhone. It was free. I've never tried posting from there. I thought it was read only.
It that what you have or do you have something else?
2k10h
Uh, I know it's kinda archaeic... you could try calling your guy at SB. He could at least tell you the wire has been sent. He would not be able to tell you if it's been received. Only someone from Wells could do that.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 11, 2011 14:27:04 GMT -5
Yes, I'm using the proboards app. I can't give karma, but can post.
Just got an email from the SB manager confirming the transfer with a tracking number. Whew! I'm heading home to plant some trees wirh DH....
Long term will probably move to Vanguard or someone similar....
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Apr 11, 2011 15:21:56 GMT -5
I've got the ProBoards Lite version. I can read, but I can't post from my iPhone.
Probably a good thing!
(edited to add) I've never tried, but I could probably post if I logged on thru Safari.
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