NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 14, 2020 12:04:29 GMT -5
When I hear people crap all over the humanities, I think it's code for "We want our kids to be lazy, get trained to do one thing, and do it for 30 years. We want them to be handed a job, regardless if they are good employees and can do things like communicate properly and critically think." Because let's face it, reinventing yourself, growing, and changing as an employee, well, that takes some effort. Sadly, it's the hiring companies that are focused on the field of study and ignoring work ethic, communication skills, critical thinking, ability to flex and to learn, etc. I've used this example before, but a friend who graduated from the U. of Toronto in the 1970s with a degree in English Lit. was hired by a major NYC bank to work in their Commercial Lending department. They could see that he had the smarts and the discipline and figured they could train him in commercial lending. They were right. Would Citibank or Chase hire him for a similar job in this day and age? The STEM majors I know who had high-power careers (and yes, I know that's only one definition of success) had additional skills they wouldn't have picked up while studying Advanced Calculus- negotiation, marketing, explaining complex concepts to non-experts. Those characteristics can't be screened for in on-line job applications, though. If you don't have the degrees or experience built into the computer screening algorithm you'll never get in the door.and that is the problem IMO. The computer screening algorithms used for hiring, screen out an awful lot of really qualified candidates just because they can't meet the buzzwords of the day. I wonder if will change again in my lifetime → not in my "working life" though since that is on its last legs (2 years max)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 12:39:38 GMT -5
My younger son has a degree in Global Studies with minors in Political Science and Asian Studies. At his last job, he was promoted to supervisor. Working under him were people with Electrical Engineering Degrees and union electricians. He was hired for his foreign language abilities, but soon was promoted because: 1. He shows up for work and 2. As a former teacher he knows how to organize and communicate with groups of people. I'm pleasantly surprised that foreign language skills are valued. (I still maintain some fluency in French and German but it's very rare among Americans unless they have family whose mother tongue is not English.) Years ago a woman in a Marketing position told me her degree was in Spanish and in the NYC job market, the reaction of potential employers was, "So what if your degree was in Spanish? We could just hire Puerto Ricans". ) I did find my knowledge of French and German very useful when traveling on business.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jan 14, 2020 13:04:27 GMT -5
Sadly, it's the hiring companies that are focused on the field of study and ignoring work ethic, communication skills, critical thinking, ability to flex and to learn, etc.
Actually,, we don't ignore it, we simply can't reliably measure it. When I interview an engineer, I can size up his/her engineering, physics, math, communication, critical thinking, over a 20 minute cup of coffee. But I can't tell much about their character, work ethic, ideology, reliability - anyone can fake those for an hour or two without divulging that they have bad intents. One solution is to hire 90-day temps, then offer full-time positions to the 'keepers'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 14:07:58 GMT -5
To the original point of the post about bankruptcy. I absolutely think some student loans should be dischargeable, because it will (hopefully) mean the lending standards go up. Right now it's just ridiculous. I was offered 30K/year Parent Plus loan as financial aid at one school making 40K. How is that reasonable in any way, shape or form? But as long as you don't have a bankruptcy or foreclosure on your credit you are basically given a pre-approved stamp of acceptance by the government up to the cost of attendance at that school minus any other aid received.
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jan 14, 2020 14:35:01 GMT -5
When student loans were dischargeable in BK the lender would only loan you a few $K at a time if you did not have stellar credit. Now the sky is the limit with parent co-signing. If these loans are dischargeable, there will be a lot of students not able to attend pricey universities and things will change for the better in the long run for many.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jan 14, 2020 20:56:42 GMT -5
I keep thinking about my g-dtr and her very poor decisions. She is 30, almost 31.
Started at a local university but didn't like the class sizes and schedules. So she moved in with boyfriend and started U of Phoenix. Lousy, for profit, expensive school ......... but she is very good at poor decisions.
She is still living with BF, has a 5 yr old, 'BS degree' in child psychology, and she and BF run a pizza/bar joint close to the university. When she graduated I think she had about $20K in loans. A couple of years ago I asked about her loans and each year she gets a forbearance so her debt was more than $50K. Haven't asked since then.
Her financial life is basically ruined. I don't know what the answer is, but I would love to see UofP go out of business, and all the other poor rated schools with it.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jan 14, 2020 21:00:51 GMT -5
That both annoys me and makes me sad for his daughters. Not everyone wants a STEM degree. I have a BA in Social Sciences, a Masters in Political Science, and am gainfully employed. That is not to say that people shouldn't be very careful with the amount of money they take out for college but a blanket statement that degrees in the humanities or social sciences are 'barely-marketable' is extreme. I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this. (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June. ) And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality. Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore. Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors: Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology. It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make. DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child. She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted. Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans? (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.) This is the sad story of many of the borrowers. If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent. I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent. Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration. An interesting tidbit. It is very common for STEM types to also be musicians or otherwise engaged in the arts. Did you know that Brian May, John Deacon, and Roger Taylor, of Queen, were engineers? Only Freddie Mercury was not a STEM geek. Maybe it is the abstract of more artistic endeavors as a counterpoint to the more linear processes of STEM careers. Or that great innovation requires leaps in thinking of a more abstract nature. Tskeeter CPA/Big Band Musician Mrs Tskeeter CPA/Singer Tskeeter’s Brother Electrical Engineer/Baritone Player Tskeeter’s Uncle Accountant/Tuba Player Tskeeter’s Nephew Math Major, Data Analyst/Art History Major Tskeeter’s Niece MD/Dancer
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jan 14, 2020 22:10:48 GMT -5
I keep thinking about my g-dtr and her very poor decisions. She is 30, almost 31. Started at a local university but didn't like the class sizes and schedules. So she moved in with boyfriend and started U of Phoenix. Lousy, for profit, expensive school ......... but she is very good at poor decisions. She is still living with BF, has a 5 yr old, 'BS degree' in child psychology, and she and BF run a pizza/bar joint close to the university. When she graduated I think she had about $20K in loans. A couple of years ago I asked about her loans and each year she gets a forbearance so her debt was more than $50K. Haven't asked since then. Her financial life is basically ruined. I don't know what the answer is, but I would love to see UofP go out of business, and all the other poor rated schools with it. I didn't make all of the crappy decisions that your g-dtr did, but I still have to wonder if I could have landed up with a similar amount of debt if I had made different decisions or simply been born a little later.
I graduated in 2000 with less than $15K in student loans which was an amount far lower than just about anyone else that I had heard of anyone borrowing. When I lost my first and only real job a year after graduating, I kept on making the 10-year standard payments while on unemployment and continued making them when I got a job making $7.35 an hour. I really have to wonder how different my life would have been if I had even looked into the hardship and income-sensitive options that I had and gotten used to making much lower or no payments. I suspect that I might have been unwilling to climb back on that horse and would still be making payments.
If you never get used to making meaningful payments on your student loans or if you stumble in the early years of repayment, you may be in a lot of trouble.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 15, 2020 0:58:26 GMT -5
Five years in the Service - did he use his GI Bill?
I'm bet this won't help him with his 'relationships', his debt was a turnoff - but slacker, whiner, snowflake, issues are still there.
He would have had only the Montgomery and, in the late 90s, it was worth less than $20,000. I think it was $14,000 when I joined (and paid into it) in 1996-97. And once he started using it, he wouldn't have been able to transfer to the Post 9/11. I was thinking he could have employed the Servicemember's Civil Relief Act to his benefit but that didn't include student loan rates until just this century.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 7:29:36 GMT -5
An interesting tidbit. It is very common for STEM types to also be musicians or otherwise engaged in the arts. Did you know that Brian May, John Deacon, and Roger Taylor, of Queen, were engineers? Only Freddie Mercury was not a STEM geek. Maybe it is the abstract of more artistic endeavors as a counterpoint to the more linear processes of STEM careers. Or that great innovation requires leaps in thinking of a more abstract nature. Tskeeter CPA/Big Band Musician Mrs Tskeeter CPA/Singer Tskeeter’s Brother Electrical Engineer/Baritone Player Tskeeter’s Uncle Accountant/Tuba Player Tskeeter’s Nephew Math Major, Data Analyst/Art History Major Tskeeter’s Niece MD/Dancer My professional society, the Casualty Actuarial Society, had a big gala in NYC for its 100th anniversary in 2014. They put together a band and chorus of members who rehearsed individually before the meeting and then together the day before. The result is this one-hour performance. The intro by the former CAS President is interesting and then I skipped to about 15 minutes in where they were doing "Rhapsody in Blue". Sound quality isn't great but it looks pretty impressive. It's the great curse of my life that my singing voice is awful.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 15, 2020 10:38:51 GMT -5
That both annoys me and makes me sad for his daughters. Not everyone wants a STEM degree. I have a BA in Social Sciences, a Masters in Political Science, and am gainfully employed. That is not to say that people shouldn't be very careful with the amount of money they take out for college but a blanket statement that degrees in the humanities or social sciences are 'barely-marketable' is extreme. I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this. (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June. ) And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality. Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore. Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors: Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology. It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make. DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child. She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted. Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans? (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.) This is the sad story of many of the borrowers. If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent. I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent. Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration. You only know about your industry so you shouldn't assume and make global statements. One of my reports has an English degree - BA, and about 2-3 years experience and started with us at 55k and we've trained quite a bit to our niche. Very generous benefits. Current age is 25, we have 7% 401k match. I'm sure many STEM make more, but this person is very happy and building a solid career.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 15, 2020 10:48:43 GMT -5
I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this. (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June. ) And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality. Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore. Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors: Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology. It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make. DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child. She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted. Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans? (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.) This is the sad story of many of the borrowers. If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent. I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent. Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration. An interesting tidbit. It is very common for STEM types to also be musicians or otherwise engaged in the arts. Did you know that Brian May, John Deacon, and Roger Taylor, of Queen, were engineers? Only Freddie Mercury was not a STEM geek. Maybe it is the abstract of more artistic endeavors as a counterpoint to the more linear processes of STEM careers. Or that great innovation requires leaps in thinking of a more abstract nature. Tskeeter CPA/Big Band Musician Mrs Tskeeter CPA/Singer Tskeeter’s Brother Electrical Engineer/Baritone Player Tskeeter’s Uncle Accountant/Tuba Player Tskeeter’s Nephew Math Major, Data Analyst/Art History Major Tskeeter’s Niece MD/Dancer Brian May has a Phd in Astrophysics and occasionally publishes. The guys in Boston starting playing together at MIT. Tom Scholz has several patents for musical equipment.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 15, 2020 10:58:40 GMT -5
I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this. (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June. ) And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality. Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore. Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors: Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology. It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make. DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child. She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted. Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans? (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.) This is the sad story of many of the borrowers. If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent. I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent. Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration. You only know about your industry so you shouldn't assume and make global statements. One of my reports has an English degree - BA, and about 2-3 years experience and started with us at 55k and we've trained quite a bit to our niche. Very generous benefits. Current age is 25, we have 7% 401k match. I'm sure many STEM make more, but this person is very happy and building a solid career. I picked the wrong STEM field and didn't make squat till recently. I still only make $47k which I know is not a lot in YM world but I am comfortable with my salary. So even in the STEM world there are still degrees that aren't considered worthy. From what I recall from various threads on the subject the only two that are worth are engineering and IT. Anyone else is doomed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 11:21:55 GMT -5
I really wanted to transfer to a college for Equestrian studies after a year or so at the local university. Horses were my passion since birth it seemed and I didn't care if I made a lot of money, I figured I'd be happy working in a stable. I even found a program back in the day before computers and got myself admitted and visited the school. My parents would have nothing to do with it or helping me go to school for that, (of course, the weren't paying for school anyhow, but I did have a free place to live). They told me, "Go into something where you can make enough money to enjoy your hobbies to the fullest on the side", and "If you want a low paying job working with horses, you don't need to get a degree for that". My stepdad told me that there is no better way to ruin the enjoyment in something than to make a career out of it. I know there are a lot of exceptions, but I've seen that a lot myself with friends and family over the years.
I took half of their advice. I did get a job a show/race barn for 9 years. I wish I would have been a little more career focused with degree choice though, because stepdad was right. I got to spend every day with the horses, but it was hard physical work for low pay and I got no days off. Meanwhile, the orthodontist family that owned the place spent time in the barn when they wanted to. Nice day? Come down and spend the afternoon riding. Crappy day or you feel like doing something else? No problem MPL will make sure everyone is fed and groomed and exercised even though she's puking her guts out from the flu that day.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 15, 2020 11:52:03 GMT -5
I just read the article in it's entirety and find it encouraging... The Brummer test seems reasonable to me.
My youngest grandson is interested in attending a private, for profit (very expensive) school. He's currently attending a community college and getting A's. But the school he is interested in is not accredited with the same organization as the CC and he'd have to take 4 years. They don't accept credits earned at a CC and the credits earned there aren't transferable. Even after financial aid, the cost would be $29K/yr!! I am concerned that the school will just pitch loans as a solution. Too many of these private, for profit, schools are predatory in their approach to young people.
"Judge Morris, who applied the Brunner test to determine if student loans have caused the borrower to suffer undue hardship, which then decides if their debt will be discharged in bankruptcy, noted that the test was “fairly straight-forward and simple” for Rosenberg.
The Brunner test requires three requirements to be met:
Debtor cannot maintain, based on their current income and expenses, a “minimal” standard of living for themselves and their dependents if forced to repay their loans
Additional circumstances exist indicating that this situation is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans
Debtor has made good faith efforts to repay their student loans
In the ruling, the judge noted that Rosenberg had been out of school and struggling with student debt for years. She ruled that given all the facts presented, Rosenberg satisfied the requirements of the Brunner test: He had far more expenses than income (resulting in negative earnings each month), had no money available to repay his student debt over time, and “did not sit back for 20 years but made a good faith effort to repay his” student loans."
“For the foregoing reasons, Petitioner has satisfied the Brunner test,” Judge Morris concluded. “Based on the foregoing, it is hereby ORDERED that Student Loan imposes an undue hardship on the Petitioner and is discharged.”
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jan 15, 2020 12:08:28 GMT -5
I just read the article in it's entirety and find it encouraging... The Brummer test seems reasonable to me. My youngest grandson is interested in attending a private, for profit (very expensive) school. He's currently attending a community college and getting A's. But the school he is interested in is not accredited with the same organization as the CC and he'd have to take 4 years. They don't accept credits earned at a CC and the credits earned there aren't transferable. Even after financial aid, the cost would be $29K/yr!! I am concerned that the school will just pitch loans as a solution. Too many of these private, for profit, schools are predatory in their approach to young people. "Judge Morris, who applied the Brunner test to determine if student loans have caused the borrower to suffer undue hardship, which then decides if their debt will be discharged in bankruptcy, noted that the test was “fairly straight-forward and simple” for Rosenberg. The Brunner test requires three requirements to be met: Debtor cannot maintain, based on their current income and expenses, a “minimal” standard of living for themselves and their dependents if forced to repay their loans Additional circumstances exist indicating that this situation is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans Debtor has made good faith efforts to repay their student loans In the ruling, the judge noted that Rosenberg had been out of school and struggling with student debt for years. She ruled that given all the facts presented, Rosenberg satisfied the requirements of the Brunner test: He had far more expenses than income (resulting in negative earnings each month), had no money available to repay his student debt over time, and “did not sit back for 20 years but made a good faith effort to repay his” student loans." “For the foregoing reasons, Petitioner has satisfied the Brunner test,” Judge Morris concluded. “Based on the foregoing, it is hereby ORDERED that Student Loan imposes an undue hardship on the Petitioner and is discharged.” Yikes! Is he willing to listen to the possibility that this is a really bad idea?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 15, 2020 12:16:10 GMT -5
I just read the article in it's entirety and find it encouraging... The Brummer test seems reasonable to me. My youngest grandson is interested in attending a private, for profit (very expensive) school. He's currently attending a community college and getting A's. But the school he is interested in is not accredited with the same organization as the CC and he'd have to take 4 years. They don't accept credits earned at a CC and the credits earned there aren't transferable. Even after financial aid, the cost would be $29K/yr!! I am concerned that the school will just pitch loans as a solution. Too many of these private, for profit, schools are predatory in their approach to young people. "Judge Morris, who applied the Brunner test to determine if student loans have caused the borrower to suffer undue hardship, which then decides if their debt will be discharged in bankruptcy, noted that the test was “fairly straight-forward and simple” for Rosenberg. The Brunner test requires three requirements to be met: Debtor cannot maintain, based on their current income and expenses, a “minimal” standard of living for themselves and their dependents if forced to repay their loans Additional circumstances exist indicating that this situation is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans Debtor has made good faith efforts to repay their student loans In the ruling, the judge noted that Rosenberg had been out of school and struggling with student debt for years. She ruled that given all the facts presented, Rosenberg satisfied the requirements of the Brunner test: He had far more expenses than income (resulting in negative earnings each month), had no money available to repay his student debt over time, and “did not sit back for 20 years but made a good faith effort to repay his” student loans." “For the foregoing reasons, Petitioner has satisfied the Brunner test,” Judge Morris concluded. “Based on the foregoing, it is hereby ORDERED that Student Loan imposes an undue hardship on the Petitioner and is discharged.” Yikes! Is he willing to listen to the possibility that this is a really bad idea? I certainly hope so. He is not impulsive. I plan to call him and try and give him as much factual information without seeming like I’m trying to coerce him... I think I’ve found a good alternative: a state school that offers a BS in the area he wants. His financial aid would cover the tuition in full and I could pay for room and board
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jan 15, 2020 12:32:15 GMT -5
GG ........ I sure hope he listens to you.
The state school sounds like a good thing and if he can think beyond today, he will have a decent future.
Good luck
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tcu2003
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Post by tcu2003 on Jan 15, 2020 13:49:18 GMT -5
Yikes! Is he willing to listen to the possibility that this is a really bad idea? I certainly hope so. He is not impulsive. I plan to call him and try and give him as much factual information without seeming like I’m trying to coerce him... I think I’ve found a good alternative: a state school that offers a BS in the area he wants. His financial aid would cover the tuition in full and I could pay for room and board Hopefully the offer of $$ for a wider decision helps to sway him!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 15, 2020 15:48:36 GMT -5
I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this. (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June. ) And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality. Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore. Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors: Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology. It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make. DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child. She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted. Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans? (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.) This is the sad story of many of the borrowers. If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent. I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent. Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration. An interesting tidbit. It is very common for STEM types to also be musicians or otherwise engaged in the arts. Did you know that Brian May, John Deacon, and Roger Taylor, of Queen, were engineers? Only Freddie Mercury was not a STEM geek. Maybe it is the abstract of more artistic endeavors as a counterpoint to the more linear processes of STEM careers. Or that great innovation requires leaps in thinking of a more abstract nature. Tskeeter CPA/Big Band Musician Mrs Tskeeter CPA/Singer Tskeeter’s Brother Electrical Engineer/Baritone Player Tskeeter’s Uncle Accountant/Tuba Player Tskeeter’s Nephew Math Major, Data Analyst/Art History Major Tskeeter’s Niece MD/Dancer Brian May actually has a PhD in Astrophysics
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jan 16, 2020 14:18:37 GMT -5
An interesting tidbit. It is very common for STEM types to also be musicians or otherwise engaged in the arts. Did you know that Brian May, John Deacon, and Roger Taylor, of Queen, were engineers? Only Freddie Mercury was not a STEM geek. Maybe it is the abstract of more artistic endeavors as a counterpoint to the more linear processes of STEM careers. Or that great innovation requires leaps in thinking of a more abstract nature. Tskeeter CPA/Big Band Musician Mrs Tskeeter CPA/Singer Tskeeter’s Brother Electrical Engineer/Baritone Player Tskeeter’s Uncle Accountant/Tuba Player Tskeeter’s Nephew Math Major, Data Analyst/Art History Major Tskeeter’s Niece MD/Dancer Brian May actually has a PhD in Astrophysics I guess that qualifies May as a STEM geek. Although the biopic Bohemian Rhapsody identifies the band members as engineers, I see that Wikipedia claims May has a bachelors degree in physics and a PhD in astrophysics. I don’t know which source is really correct. In any event, the music/arts STEM connection remains.
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