Student loan debt *can* be discharged in bankruptcy

[nidena]

I can't imagine having student loans that are as high as a mortgage balance but I know it's not at all uncommon.

finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-bankruptcy-kevin-rosenberg-190151284.html

[resolution]

I can't imagine having a law degree and a job that paid enough to pay off the debt, and then quitting it to go find myself before actually paying off the debt.  I totally understand the people that take out student loans and then fail out of college, or something happens in their life that interrupts their course of study, or maybe they get a degree that doesn't lead to a good job; but I can't imagine having the good job and then quitting it without paying off the debt first.

[Deleted]

Bad decisions all around and now the lenders take the hit (and, indirectly, the taxpayers, since the lenders can write off loans discharged in BK).  I think he should be required to make income-based payments the rest of his life, even if small amounts.  I also agree that it was irresponsible to quit a well-paying job that might have enabled him to repay the debt just because he didn't like it.  The article includes a link to another sad story about parents who took out, or cosigned, their kids' student loans.

The government used to put out a hard-copy Occupational Outlook Handbook (now on-line at www.bls.gov/ooh/) that did a great job of describing every type of job, including physical environment (he described practicing law as "just sitting by yourself in an office"), potential income and future prospects.  Anyone looking at taking on student loan debt to attend college should do research first.  And EVERYONE should be required to learn the mechanics of compound interest.  I don't care how much you hate math.  

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jan 14, 2020 8:17:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Bad decisions all around and now the lenders take the hit (and, indirectly, the taxpayers, since the lenders can write off loans discharged in BK).  I think he should be required to make income-based payments the rest of his life, even if small amounts.  I also agree that it was irresponsible to quit a well-paying job that might have enabled him to repay the debt just because he didn't like it.  The article includes a link to another sad story about parents who took out, or cosigned, their kids' student loans.

The government used to put out a hard-copy Occupational Outlook Handbook (now on-line at www.bls.gov/ooh/) that did a great job of describing every type of job, including physical environment (he described practicing law as "just sitting by yourself in an office"), potential income and future prospects.  Anyone looking at taking on student loan debt to attend college should do research first.  And EVERYONE should be required to learn the mechanics of compound interest.  I don't care how much you hate math.  

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

Nothing that can't be said of any other debt that people routinely discharge in bankruptcy. Sometimes people make mistakes and/or hindsight is 20/20 - and the bankruptcy laws were put into the system for reasons - and there is no reason that student loans should not be included.

An important piece of the judges ruling was that this guy had been making a good faith effort on paying these loans for 20 years and that the loans were an undue hardship going forward. I don't think that this is going to motivate people to intentionally abuse student loans.

I think this is a good move for the country overall. Sometimes student loans are kind of overwhelming - but in some cases they do wreck people's lives. That shouldn't be the case. Even if they made a few mistakes along the way.

[Deleted]

After he graduated in 2004, Rosenberg consolidated his loans and held a little more than $116,000 in student debt as of April 2005. That number ballooned to about $221,000 over the next 14 years.

This is the part I don't get.  He'd already graduated from law school.  Was he not paying enough to even cover the interest after that? 

I do agree that first generation and kids whose parents won't/can't help get sucked into this the most, but being in the thick of it right now, I've been seeing some pretty crazy even among those that should know better.  One of DS's classmates last year was accepted to Princeton.  His dad is a doc and mom an engineer, so they are full pay, but because of their own hefty loan debt they're not really able to help much. The kid is brilliant (obviously) and had several nearly full ride offers at lower tier, but still great schools, but...Princeton.  So that's where he went at 70K/year.  I have no idea how much they're borrowing, but I know they went the cosigning private loans route. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jan 14, 2020 8:49:09 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

After he graduated in 2004, Rosenberg consolidated his loans and held a little more than $116,000 in student debt as of April 2005. That number ballooned to about $221,000 over the next 14 years.

This is the part I don't get.  He'd already graduated from law school.  Was he not paying enough to even cover the interest after that? 

I do agree that first generation and kids whose parents won't/can't help get sucked into this the most, but being in the thick of it right now, I've been seeing some pretty crazy even among those that should know better.  One of DS's classmates last year was accepted to Princeton.  His dad is a doc and mom an engineer, so they are full pay, but because of their own hefty loan debt they're not really able to help much. The kid is brilliant (obviously) and had several nearly full ride offers at lower tier, but still great schools, but...Princeton.  So that's where he went at 70K/year.  I have no idea how much they're borrowing, but I know they went the cosigning private loans route. 

First - there is a 6 month grace period, but my experience was it takes about 7-8 month before you first payment is due. All that time interest is accruing, so it was likely up quite a bit before he even started paying. 

If he then went into IBR and wasn't covering at least the interest - it will sure pile up over the years.

Since I am in the 6 figure student loan club, I can see how it is all working and it is really shabby. Thinking about young people starting out with a bachelor's degree and 6 figures in student loans really saddens me - and I know several of DDs friends are in that boat. DD is very grateful she only has about 30k of fed loans. I thought that was enough and she is being very responsible and on the regular 10 year repayments, and she pays extra when she can.

My minimum monthly payments are about 1450/month. I can handle that ok, but I am more advanced career-wise and a little more savvy about understanding the implications of certain things - like the private loan that keeps adjusting the minimum payment down so I can enjoy a 20 year repayment.

The 4% origination fee is what really steams me, when they start charging interest from day one. And interest is capitalized daily.

Student loans were meant to help the country become educated, with low - close to inflation level interest rates. Now - billions is being made off them. And I for one have a real problem with that.

It will be interesting to see if there is any litigation against this from the lenders.

Although I do have large student loans, I also have a pretty high salary and nothing put in place to help borrows would be likely to affect me, and I'm relatively ok with that. I do think that something need to be done about the entire system and take a lot - if not all - of that profit out of it.

[gs11rmb]

Jan 14, 2020 8:17:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Bad decisions all around and now the lenders take the hit (and, indirectly, the taxpayers, since the lenders can write off loans discharged in BK).  I think he should be required to make income-based payments the rest of his life, even if small amounts.  I also agree that it was irresponsible to quit a well-paying job that might have enabled him to repay the debt just because he didn't like it.  The article includes a link to another sad story about parents who took out, or cosigned, their kids' student loans.

The government used to put out a hard-copy Occupational Outlook Handbook (now on-line at www.bls.gov/ooh/) that did a great job of describing every type of job, including physical environment (he described practicing law as "just sitting by yourself in an office"), potential income and future prospects.  Anyone looking at taking on student loan debt to attend college should do research first.  And EVERYONE should be required to learn the mechanics of compound interest.  I don't care how much you hate math.  

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

That both annoys me and makes me sad for his daughters.  Not everyone wants a STEM degree.  I have a BA in Social Sciences, a Masters in Political Science, and am gainfully employed.

That is not to say that people shouldn't be very careful with the amount of money they take out for college but a blanket statement that degrees in the humanities or social sciences are 'barely-marketable' is extreme.

[Deleted]

I go back and forth on advising DS to take the subsidized loans.  Part of me is thinking, "free" money while he's there and now with the ability to pay some loans with 529 funds that makes that even more appealing, but I'm not sure I want to start down that rabbit hole.  We're good for 4 years, but the potential 5th makes me nervous. 

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 9:16:05 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Jan 14, 2020 8:17:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

That both annoys me and makes me sad for his daughters.  Not everyone wants a STEM degree.  I have a BA in Social Sciences, a Masters in Political Science, and am gainfully employed.

That is not to say that people shouldn't be very careful with the amount of money they take out for college but a blanket statement that degrees in the humanities or social sciences are 'barely-marketable' is extreme.

I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this.  (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June.  )  

And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality.  Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore.  Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors:  Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology.  It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make.  DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child.  She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted.  Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans?  (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.)  This is the sad story of many of the borrowers.  If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent.

I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent.  Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration.

  

[phil5185]

Five years in the Service - did he use his GI Bill?

I'm bet this won't help him with his 'relationships', his debt was a turnoff - but slacker, whiner, snowflake, issues are still there.

[stillmovingforward]

I dislike the thought of 'not allowing' certain degrees. I can easily see 'not paying for' certain degrees as it's the parents'money. But, my kids can get any degree they want, I'm just not subsidising certain ones because it's not where I want my hard earned money to go. And they know it.
Although, my kid that I wont help blew a full ride, any degree you want scholarship. THAT'S why I won't give him any money. Its time he learns how hard it is to earn the money he so easily spent (and yes, in high school he had to earn any money he wanted for extras, including gas). He's learning, slowly.

[giramomma]

Jan 14, 2020 8:17:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

Well, as a dumb ass music major, I've done well enough.

Well enough to send four kids through private school while having my husband work part time. Granted, we can't take yearly European trips on top of it .

But it's not like we've been living out of our car sucking off of the teat of gov't, either.

 

[swamp]

Jan 14, 2020 8:17:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Bad decisions all around and now the lenders take the hit (and, indirectly, the taxpayers, since the lenders can write off loans discharged in BK).  I think he should be required to make income-based payments the rest of his life, even if small amounts.  I also agree that it was irresponsible to quit a well-paying job that might have enabled him to repay the debt just because he didn't like it.  The article includes a link to another sad story about parents who took out, or cosigned, their kids' student loans.

The government used to put out a hard-copy Occupational Outlook Handbook (now on-line at www.bls.gov/ooh/) that did a great job of describing every type of job, including physical environment (he described practicing law as "just sitting by yourself in an office"), potential income and future prospects.  Anyone looking at taking on student loan debt to attend college should do research first.  And EVERYONE should be required to learn the mechanics of compound interest.  I don't care how much you hate math.  

DS is already thinking of his kids' future college education even though the oldest is only 5.  He wants them to do as much as possible in community colleges first although if one of them wants to go into a profession requiring a top-notch graduate degree that might not work.  I also suspect he won't allow majors in barely-marketable fields such as History, English Lit. or Art History.  I'm stashing money in their 529s although with the birth of the 3rd it's a challenge!  Sadly, the people who fall into the giant student loan traps are usually the first-generation college students, who can least afford to make the mistakes.

I went to a exclusive private school cheaper than it would have cost me to go to a community college.  Don't automatically discount the expensive schools.   Also, the networking/connections you can make at the exclusive school can be invaluable.   

I also like how your DS has his kids lives all planned out.  You let us know how that works out for him.    

I also think it's very short sighted to see History and Literature as "barely marketable."    It's what you make of it.  

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 9:43:18 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Well, as a dumb ass music major, I've done well enough.

Well enough to send four kids through private school while having my husband work part time. Granted, we can't take yearly European trips on top of it.

First of all, I would NEVER label a Music major as "dumb-ass". I went to the U. of Cincinnati and they had a fantastic conservatory. I attended many performances there as a student and even without much of an education in that area I appreciated the hard work and raw talent that went into their performances. I WISH I could roar through the Widor Toccata on a giant pipe organ but I have zero talent in that area.

And that's why I was careful to say, "barely marketable" instead of "unmarketable". One harpsichord major I know became a dealer in rare musical instruments. If you have a good sales personality (another talent I lack) and can bring in business, you can go far regardless of your area of study. I still would hate to see my grandchildren take on huge loans to enter fields where they have little chance of earning enough to pay off any debt they take on.

[gs11rmb]

Jan 14, 2020 9:33:09 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jan 14, 2020 9:16:05 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

That both annoys me and makes me sad for his daughters.  Not everyone wants a STEM degree.  I have a BA in Social Sciences, a Masters in Political Science, and am gainfully employed.

That is not to say that people shouldn't be very careful with the amount of money they take out for college but a blanket statement that degrees in the humanities or social sciences are 'barely-marketable' is extreme.

I'm 100% on board with him and DDIL on this.  (And, BTW, their 3rd is a boy, born last June.  )  

And I actually think it's sad that humanities degrees aren't valued in the workplace but it's reality.  Companies used to be willing to train people with a degree in History or Literature from a good school, but not anymore.  Plenty of the actuaries I know were double majors:  Math or Finance AND Music, Linguistics (she specialized in the language spoken by Inuits of Greenland!), Theology.  It's rational to sit down with your kid and ask what they want to study, what they plan to do with it, what their education will cost and what they're likely to make.  DDIL got a 2-year degree from a business college and had a good job managing inventory for a car dealership before she had their first child.  She then became a SAHM, something they both wanted.  Would that have been an option if she had $80,000 in student loans?  (DS told me she did have some student loans but I have no idea how much- not my business and I bet they're paid off by now.)  This is the sad story of many of the borrowers.  If you've got steep student loans and you're working at Starbucks, it certainly curtails many of your options for marriage, home ownership, having kids or being a stay-at-home parent.

I want my grandchildren to get the education they need to find work that will make them self-supporting and independent.  Too early to start selecting majors now but we need to take the hiring market into consideration.

  

So, if your grandchildren don't have a specific career-path that requires a STEM degree then neither you nor their parents will help with their college costs?

Of course taking out $80,000 worth of loans for an associates degree would have been a ludicrous idea.  Likewise, if my girls want to get a degree in English Literature or Sociology or Political Science then I will strongly recommend that they attend a University of Georgia school where the current cost of attendance is around $12,000 per year versus Emory University which is roughly $55,000 annually.  Regardless of which school they choose there will only be a certain amount of money available from us to offset the costs.  

[TheOtherMe]

What if the grandchildren have no interest in a STEM degree?  What if that is now where their abilities lie?  

I think I'm quite happy that I paid my own way to college and got a degree in what I wanted and in a major that I chose.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 10:03:02 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

So, if your grandchildren don't have a specific career-path that requires a STEM degree then neither you nor their parents will help with their college costs?

Of course taking out $80,000 worth of loans for an associates degree would have been a ludicrous idea.  Likewise, if my girls want to get a degree in English Literature or Sociology or Political Science then I will strongly recommend that they attend a University of Georgia school where the current cost of attendance is around $12,000 per year versus Emory University which is roughly $55,000 annually. Regardless of which school they choose there will only be a certain amount of money available from us to offset the costs.

No, their options wouldn't be limited to STEM degrees. That's a good way to ensure that your kid is a college dropout- pushing them into something they don't really like because it would pay well. DDIL's 2-year degree was a good choice given her hopes for the future; she was able to support herself (lived with her sister and another female roommate) and was able to choose the SAHM life without a giant mountain of debt. I want the same for my granddaughters and grandson- not desperately seeking someone to marry so they can live decently.

If it's child abuse to help your children/grandchildren choose an education that fits their interests and talents with a realistic view of what it will cost and what they might make, I plead guilty in advance.

[giramomma]

One of my barely marketable friends went into IT. Another one landed in marketing.

And they never thought that defaulting on student loans was an option. One of my friends was in the hole 50K. 20-something years ago.

When I hear people crap all over the humanities, I think it's code for "We want our kids to be lazy, get trained to do one thing, and do it for 30 years. We want them to be handed a job, regardless if they are good employees and can do things like communicate properly and critically think."

Because let's face it, reinventing yourself, growing, and changing as an employee, well, that takes some effort.

[bean29]

For some reason, I was unable to read the end of the story. What was the reasoning the judge used to determine the loans were dischargeable in BK?   How do they anticipate it will translate to other borrowers? 

[Deleted]

I'm not sure what I would do if one of my kids said they wanted to go to school for Art History or English Lit, but I know I would want to hear what the plan was for using that degree and for sure we would go with the lowest cost/no loan option.  I gave DS the same rundown on Chemistry when he was thinking he might want to major in that.  Just because it's STEM doesn't mean it's particularly useful in the job market (I say this as someone with a BS in Biology). 

[TheOtherMe]

Jan 14, 2020 10:13:37 GMT -5 giramomma said:

One of my barely marketable friends went into IT. Another one landed in marketing.

And they never thought that defaulting on student loans was an option. One of my friends was in the hole 50K. 20-something years ago.

When I hear people crap all over the humanities, I think it's code for "We want our kids to be lazy, get trained to do one thing, and do it for 30 years. We want them to be handed a job, regardless if they are good employees and can do things like communicate properly and critically think."

Because let's face it, reinventing yourself, growing, and changing as an employee, well, that takes some effort.

It is code.  Get a STEM degree or else.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 10:13:37 GMT -5 giramomma said:

When I hear people crap all over the humanities, I think it's code for "We want our kids to be lazy, get trained to do one thing, and do it for 30 years. We want them to be handed a job, regardless if they are good employees and can do things like communicate properly and critically think."

Because let's face it, reinventing yourself, growing, and changing as an employee, well, that takes some effort.

Sadly, it's the hiring companies that are focused on the field of study and ignoring work ethic, communication skills, critical thinking, ability to flex and to learn, etc.  I've used this example before, but a friend who graduated from the U. of Toronto in the 1970s with a degree in English Lit. was hired by a major NYC bank to work in their Commercial Lending department. They could see that he had the smarts and the discipline and figured they could train him in commercial lending.  They were right.  Would Citibank or Chase hire him for a similar job in this day and age?  

The STEM majors I know who had high-power careers (and yes, I know that's only one definition of success) had additional skills they wouldn't have picked up while studying Advanced Calculus- negotiation, marketing, explaining complex concepts to non-experts.  Those characteristics can't be screened for in on-line job applications, though.  If you don't have the degrees or experience built into the computer screening algorithm you'll never get in the door.

[gs11rmb]

Jan 14, 2020 10:12:01 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jan 14, 2020 10:03:02 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

So, if your grandchildren don't have a specific career-path that requires a STEM degree then neither you nor their parents will help with their college costs?

Of course taking out $80,000 worth of loans for an associates degree would have been a ludicrous idea.  Likewise, if my girls want to get a degree in English Literature or Sociology or Political Science then I will strongly recommend that they attend a University of Georgia school where the current cost of attendance is around $12,000 per year versus Emory University which is roughly $55,000 annually. Regardless of which school they choose there will only be a certain amount of money available from us to offset the costs.

No, their options wouldn't be limited to STEM degrees. That's a good way to ensure that your kid is a college dropout- pushing them into something they don't really like because it would pay well. DDIL's 2-year degree was a good choice given her hopes for the future; she was able to support herself (lived with her sister and another female roommate) and was able to choose the SAHM life without a giant mountain of debt. I want the same for my granddaughters and grandson- not desperately seeking someone to marry so they can live decently.

If it's child abuse to help your children/grandchildren choose an education that fits their interests and talents with a realistic view of what it will cost and what they might make, I plead guilty in advance.

I promise I'm not trying to pick on you.  I think you're a nice person with the interests of your grandchildren at heart .

That being said... your statements don't really gel.  On the one hand you recognize that pushing a kid into a STEM degree that doesn't interest them is a recipe for disaster.  On the other you seem to be under the impression that a humanities/social sciences degree leads to a mountain of debt.  Isn't it possible that there will be enough money set aside that your grandchildren can get any degree that they want from a state school and graduate with no or at least minimal debt?  In that case, why are you so concerned about the degree that they choose?  Are you and their parents trying to get a 'return on investment'?  If they don't immediately walk into a lucrative job do you think they have wasted 'your' money?

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 10:39:06 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

<snip>
That being said... your statements don't really gel. On the one hand you recognize that pushing a kid into a STEM degree that doesn't interest them is a recipe for disaster.  On the other you seem to be under the impression that a humanities/social sciences degree leads to a mountain of debt.  Isn't it possible that there will be enough money set aside that your grandchildren can get any degree that they want from a state school and graduate with no or at least minimal debt? In that case, why are you so concerned about the degree that they choose? Are you and their parents trying to get a 'return on investment'? If they don't immediately walk into a lucrative job do you think they have wasted 'your' money?

No, not thinking about "return on investment". The question would be, "what do you plan to do with this degree and will it enable you to live comfortably, according to YOUR definition of comfortable, after payments on any money you've borrowed"? Let's say one of them is able to fully fund a degree in Social Work between the 529, scholarships, PT work and preliminary credits from community college. That's vital, important work and it's a job I could not do. (Vocational testing scored my interests and abilities in "Social Services" jobs in the 2nd percentile. My brother who scored in the first percentile became an accountant.) I'd be proud of them.

[phil5185]

""" Nothing that can't be said of any other debt that people routinely discharge in bankruptcy. Sometimes people make mistakes and/or hindsight is 20/20 - and the bankruptcy laws were put into the system for reasons - and there is no reason that student loans should not be included. """

I was in college in the 1950's & 60s. That is about when student loans became common-place. And in about the 1960s student loan abuse became a problem. The recipe went like this  - a med student and hi RN wife rack up big loans for about 8 years while living on the part-time RN salary. Shortly after graduation, he files for bk, gets the student loans erased, and he starts his career. The point is, there were some very serious abuses of bk. And that was before credit scores were invented so the abusers were truly 'free' to move on with their lives, no credit checks, etc, when they bought a house, got a job, got a new job.

[bookkeeper]

My younger son has a degree in Global Studies with minors in Political Science and Asian Studies.  At his last job, he was promoted to supervisor.  Working under him were people with Electrical Engineering Degrees and union electricians.  He was hired for his foreign language abilities, but soon was promoted because: 1.  He shows up for work and   2.  As a former teacher he knows how to organize and communicate with groups of people.


Pretty good for a teacher/diplomat.  Most of the STEM degree people he worked with were very qualified for the work, but had zero people skills or common sense about how the working world gets through the day.


Lumping people into categories because of the title of their degree is short sighted.  Humans are very adaptable and those that want to continue to learn each day can become very valuable in the work place.  We don't stop learning once we have finished with our degree.  

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 11:17:22 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

The point is, there were some very serious abuses of bk. And that was before credit scores were invented so the abusers were truly 'free' to move on with their lives, no credit checks, etc, when they bought a house, got a job, got a new job.

I was also surprised to read- ages ago- that loan proceeds can be spent pretty much at the discretion of the borrower since they include living expenses.  So, you can use some of the proceeds to upgrade your sound system or put a down payment on a car. If the loans are dischargeable in BK that makes them even more subject to spending on "wants".

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2020 11:38:53 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jan 14, 2020 11:17:22 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

The point is, there were some very serious abuses of bk. And that was before credit scores were invented so the abusers were truly 'free' to move on with their lives, no credit checks, etc, when they bought a house, got a job, got a new job.

I was also surprised to read- ages ago- that loan proceeds can be spent pretty much at the discretion of the borrower since they include living expenses.  So, you can use some of the proceeds to upgrade your sound system or put a down payment on a car. If the loans are dischargeable in BK that makes them even more subject to spending on "wants".

It's still that way.  It goes towards your balance at the school first, but if you're living off campus they just cut you a check for any remainder. 

My ex had taken out a bunch of student loans he didn't need just to supplement his lifestyle.  Federal and state grants paid his tuition and he had a job to pay for his rent and food. 

[finnime]

The standard that has to be met to make the loans dischargeable in bankruptcy is stringent. I sincerely doubt this introduces much potential for abuse. I agree that making people who are effectively indentured servants to their student loans repay those loans for the rest of their lives is a real problem. Maybe having loans dischargeable will make more lenders be more conservative with dispersing those loans, so people don't end up grossly and impossibly in debt for a valueless education, such as for one of the fraudulent for-profit schools which prey on students' ambitions and ignorance.

[raeoflyte]

My husband has 2 stem degrees, but I've always supported us with just my highschool education. He works part time, and has only just recently gotten anywhere into the ballpark of what I earn per hour. I hope my kids make difference choices than I have, but there are so many paths to success that I try my best not to limit them.