Seattle proposes to ban natural gas in new construction

[ripvanwinkle]

Not sure if this is the right forum to post this - www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-to-consider-ban-on-natural-gas-for-new-buildings/

It would prohibit new construction from using natural gas and force the use of electricity to heat and cook in homes and commercial/governmental bldgs. And maybe a tax on those who use fuel oil in their homes. I have gas heat. It's cheap. Winter time $50 month. I lived in Spokane once and had electric heat. It got cold there. My bill sometimes in winter was $200 or more a month.

And some studies say there won't be enough electricity to power the grid in years to come if states ban coal or gas electric generating plants. In my area I heard, natural gas plants provide up to 60% of the power. Coal plants 30% and other sources the rest. They say possibility of 30% chance of rolling blackouts in peak times or emergency situations.

This is lunacy. 

[phil5185]

Time to build a reactor?   Clean, zero carbon. Runs 24 hours a day, rain or shine or wind.    The new mega-reactors, the ones that China is building, are using new safer technology, the uranium is nearly all reused.

[thyme4change]

I thought natural gas was "clean"-ish? No?

[gs11rmb]

Jan 10, 2020 9:30:08 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I thought natural gas was "clean"-ish? No?

Not really.  The public issue appears to be fracking that may pollute water supplies but a hugely unreported problem is that the process allows for the very cheap production of plastic. That means the market for recyclables is very weak and there's no incentive for petrochemical companies to stop producing virgin plastic. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Yeah.....there has been talk of banning natural gas altogether where I live, not just new construction by 2030.  That would mean retrofitting most houses in the city.  It has not gone over well, as many don’t have that kind of $$$.

BC has proposed all cars be electric by 2030. This is going to be interesting.

[TheOtherMe]

Nuclear reactor would be the absolute worst thing to do.  

Nothing safe about nuclear energy.  

[thyme4change]

I like cooking with gas.

I'm ready for electric cars, but need more super-chargers for road trips.

[busymom]

I clicked into your article, and got a virus warning from my computer security system.  Just so you know, ripvanwinkle.



I can't help but wonder if moving away from natural gas will be cheaper for cities.  Whenever the infrastructure for natural gas gets leaks, the results are explosive.  

[MN-Investor]

If a storm knocks out the electricity where I live, I can use a generator to provide power to my gas-powered furnace and keep my house warm. If I heat the house with electricity, I can't imagine that a backup generator would be capable of providing sufficient power to the electric heaters.

[thyme4change]

I see a future where we all die from windmill cancer.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 10, 2020 10:39:43 GMT -5 busymom said:

I clicked into your article, and got a virus warning from my computer security system.  Just so you know, ripvanwinkle .



I can't help but wonder if moving away from natural gas will be cheaper for cities.  Whenever the infrastructure for natural gas gets leaks, the results are explosive.   

When I was in KY, I lost my power for a week due to an ice storm.  Never again.  I moved to a hotel after 3 days because I was seriously worried about hypothermia.  It isn’t the electricity for lights and the minor stuff, but furnace and ability to cook.

I figure the cost of a power outage for a week cost me personally well over $2000. That included a hotel, eating out, and the entire loss of my freezer and fridge. I was just a single person.....and I was only out of my home 4/7 days. There were some without power for 10+ days.

In WA, we were without power for a week.  Still had hot water, but the furnace motor didn’t blow warm air out.  A generator took care of that.  We still didn’t have access to the stove, but smaller wattage appliances worked.  We also had a gas grill, so could cook.   

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Another thing.....the local power companies in WA do not have the infrastructure to handle this.  I forget the numbers in the paper, but it was considerable.  Who is going to pay for this?  Lemme guess....consumers.

[alabamagal]

When we were looking to buy a house in KY, one oh the high on our list desirable items was gas heat. I read about all the benefits of electric heat pumps using renewable electricity, and how wonderful it was for the environment. But gas is cheaper!

Less than 25% of houses here have gas heat, but we found one that does. Also gas water heater. We removed wood burning stove in fireplace and soon will get ventless gas fireplace. I would even consider gas stove for kitchen when we get to replacement.

[NastyWoman]

Jan 10, 2020 11:19:28 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I see a future where we all die from windmill cancer.

I am Dutch → windmills all over the place. I have already joined a certain politician who has "died" from Parkinson's  

[hoops902]

I wonder if this will lead to bigger residential heat pumps.  The house we're building only has electric at the moment, it's out in the country and the propane tank was removed years ago.  The new house has to be geothermal because it would take 3-4 very large heat pumps to provide enough heat for the home.  

[HoneyBBQ]

They can pry my gas stove from my cold dead hands.
We even have a pipe that supplies gas to our BBQ on the porch.

[souldoubt]

A friend of mine works for the gas company and part of NorCal is trying to do the same thing or ban natural gas all together.  He finds it amusing because one of the primary ways of generating electricity is through the use of natural gas which produces less CO2 than the burning of coal.  I'm not an engineer or science guy and maybe Phil or someone else can point out the flaws in this understanding said but it sounds like a feel good move that would have less of an environmental impact than some people think.  One thing I know for sure in CA is it costs more being 100% electric than having gas/electric and when the rolling blackouts hit or we get reamed by rising costs being 100% electric will backfire.   

[jerseygirl]

We have oil heat and hoping gas lines will extend to our neighborhood in 1 to 2 years. Investigated heat pumps but would need an auxiliary heating system for very cold winter nights. So not cost effective to keep 2 systems in running order.
NJ has some nuclear plants and wish there would be more built. New plants are very safe, no pollution and nuclear waste isn’t a problem for the new plants. But there’s a big perception/emotional negativity towards nuclear. ‘Environmentalists ‘ are already ramping up complaints against very large multi acre solar facilities and windmills, and continuing against pipelines, trains and trucks carrying gas or oil.
A new term - BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.

I like living in a warm house in winter, cool house in summer and lights and electricity. Get a grip people, we’re not going back to cavemen times

[phil5185]

Jan 10, 2020 13:08:31 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

We have oil heat and hoping gas lines will extend to our neighborhood in 1 to 2 years. Investigated heat pumps but would need an auxiliary heating system for very cold winter nights. So not cost effective to keep 2 systems in running order.
NJ has some nuclear plants and wish there would be more built. New plants are very safe, no pollution and nuclear waste isn’t a problem for the new plants. But there’s a big perception/emotional negativity towards nuclear. ‘Environmentalists ‘ are already ramping up complaints against very large multi acre solar facilities and windmills, and continuing against pipelines, trains and trucks carrying gas or oil.
A new term - BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.

I like living in a warm house in winter, cool house in summer and lights and electricity. Get a grip people, we’re not going back to cavemen times

[ripvanwinkle]

Also a while back, I watched a news story related to this. The story was about the projected electrical usage over the next decade. Right the power utilities in the NW have enough power in emergencies to predict just a 3% chance of rolling black outs. If all the coal, gas and nuclear power plants are shuttered, the black out chance goes up to over 30%. And over the next few years 20 coal generating plants will be decommissioned.

If the utilities have to supplement/buy electricity on the open market, prices would skyrocket. I heard it's now about $30 megawatt (or kilowatt, I get them confused). If they have to buy it could go up to $700 megawatt like it did about ten yrs ago due to a drought and low hydro producing capabilities at the dams.

The "Green Plans" don't work out. We barely have enough electricity to sustain what we use now.

[sesfw]

Just a thought.  Are they trying to get more people using individual solar energy?  Especially on new homes that can be build in?

We live in the Phx area and we have whole house solar, including water heater.  No natural gas in this area, although propane is available for people who prefer gas.  Our cooling bill last summer was less than half what previous years have been, and our winter heating ditto.

Something to think about.

[ripvanwinkle]

Jan 11, 2020 12:06:57 GMT -5 sesfw said:

Just a thought.  Are they trying to get more people using individual solar energy?  Especially on new homes that can be build in?

We live in the Phx area and we have whole house solar, including water heater.  No natural gas in this area, although propane is available for people who prefer gas.  Our cooling bill last summer was less than half what previous years have been, and our winter heating ditto.

Something to think about.

I'm glad for you. You live in a area where solar power is feasible. The rest of the country is not as lucky. The greenies in my area are trying to get everybody to use anything but fossil fuels regardless of the costs. Even though current studies show that it's not possible with the current electrical grid and would take billions of dollars and cost the consumers high rate hikes.

The utility stock holders are not going to pay for this. Since most utilities are a regulated monopoly by the state, they can pass the cost on to the consumers. About 20 or 30yrs ago my power company decommissioned a nuclear plant. We had to pay through higher bills. But the gleeful irony in all this is that they also will be paying high electrical bills. I wonder if they have thought this through. Be careful what you ask for.

[happyhoix]

Jan 11, 2020 17:20:43 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Jan 11, 2020 12:06:57 GMT -5 sesfw said:

Just a thought.  Are they trying to get more people using individual solar energy?  Especially on new homes that can be build in?

We live in the Phx area and we have whole house solar, including water heater.  No natural gas in this area, although propane is available for people who prefer gas.  Our cooling bill last summer was less than half what previous years have been, and our winter heating ditto.

Something to think about.

I'm glad for you. You live in a area where solar power is feasible. The rest of the country is not as lucky. The greenies in my area are trying to get everybody to use anything but fossil fuels regardless of the costs. Even though current studies show that it's not possible with the current electrical grid and would take billions of dollars and cost the consumers high rate hikes.

The utility stock holders are not going to pay for this. Since most utilities are a regulated monopoly by the state, they can pass the cost on to the consumers. About 20 or 30yrs ago my power company decommissioned a nuclear plant. We had to pay through higher bills. But the gleeful irony in all this is that they also will be paying high electrical bills. I wonder if they have thought this through. Be careful what you ask for.

NW has a high risk for earthquakes. Nuclear power is fine, until a catastrophe like a tsunami or earthquake hits it. Look at what happened to Japan. 

[schildi]

Jan 10, 2020 12:21:02 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

I wonder if this will lead to bigger residential heat pumps.  The house we're building only has electric at the moment, it's out in the country and the propane tank was removed years ago.  The new house has to be geothermal because it would take 3-4 very large heat pumps to provide enough heat for the home.  

What kind of a home is that? How many sq ft?

[teen persuasion]

They just decommissioned the last coal-fired electric plant in the state (locals are a bit miffed because of the people put out of work - at its peak it employed > 200, recently about 50). The governor has been pushing to get all of the new electric plants on natural gas.

There's just not enough hydro to supply everyone, and they shift our local hydro to downstate businesses! Not cool, guys - that hydro power is one of OUR region's few remaining advantages, you shouldn't get to shunt it away from our region to benefit yours! And you wonder why many want to divide the state up into 2 (or three!) new states?

[hoops902]

Jan 12, 2020 14:58:09 GMT -5 schildi said:

Jan 10, 2020 12:21:02 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

I wonder if this will lead to bigger residential heat pumps.  The house we're building only has electric at the moment, it's out in the country and the propane tank was removed years ago.  The new house has to be geothermal because it would take 3-4 very large heat pumps to provide enough heat for the home.  

What kind of a home is that? How many sq ft?

total square feet is about 4300 (2300 main floor, 2000 basement).  It's in a cold zone climate.  And I say "very large" meaning "very large readily available residential (I'm sure they make bigger commercial ones)".  

My parents have one today running for about 800 square feet main floor and 1500 square feet basement...and it runs constantly and can't hold a temperature at all unless they turn the heat off to the main floor and just heat the 1500 square foot basement.  

[OldCoyote]

Using electric is about four times the cost of N.G.

[iono1]

Where I live in the northeast (Upstate NYS specifically), electric generation plants use natural gas to generate electricity.  Some still use coal & oil.  There hasn't been a nuclear plant built in decades & in NYS the odds are pretty good there never will be again.  Hydro production varies per year and you never can be sure how much you can produce other than using multi-year averages to project future production.  There aren't enough wind farms to satisfy energy needs.  

Basically, banning natural gas use in new construction for electricity doesn't stop the use of natural gas, which is cleaner to burn to produce electricity than coal or oil.  

[Deleted]

Jan 10, 2020 12:56:56 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

They can pry my gas stove from my cold dead hands.

I know- DH and I even paid to have a gas line put in so we could replace the electric cooktop when we bought this house. I hate having to go back to electric at DS and DDIL’s when I visit.

I suppose induction is an option but I love my cast-iron cookware.

[Apple]

The powers that be in WA state have already decided that cheap, easy, highly available hydro-power is not "renewable energy".  Because they are idiots.  Wind energy is very highly subsidized, and is now being subsidized at a cost to hydro (even more so than in the past, this year is severe, cutting funds to generation plants that could easily self-fund, but aren't allowed to).  I see electric prices getting even higher in areas that should have very cheap electricity expenses.  Getting rid of natural gas is going to make this even worse.