dezii
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Post by dezii on Jan 12, 2020 15:43:11 GMT -5
Another untruthful statement...have any links that prove the "Most"..or just more goblegoop aka the Donald Trump? Just wondering and asking. Who can you trust in Washington?? Terry James Albury, James Comey, James McCabe, and others. These people are suppose to be Honest,, That is how far down the politicians are,
Who again are we suppose to TRUST??
Well definitely not our current Commander in chief who has not yet met a statement of his that one could call truthful....Seems to be known for that all over the world...definitely known by world leaders...and he seems to revel in that...proud as a peacock he is..
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spartyparty
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Post by spartyparty on Jan 13, 2020 10:27:54 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 13:10:30 GMT -5
If it was 176 dead Americans you guys would be flipping out. How are you going to get along in the world without Allies? Do you really think you can get along all on your lonesome? Or do you think Russia and North Korea are going to to be your new best friends?
Too dispense with this ignorant nonsense (bolded), mostly take note of the first link on my post. ymam.proboards.com/post/3080581
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Jan 13, 2020 13:18:34 GMT -5
It’s ok if you can’t handle that he wagged the dog.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 13, 2020 13:22:09 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out how any rationally thinking person thinks it is anyone's fault other than Iran that Iran shot down a plane.
I would understand it if the American military strike unintentionally shot down the plane, that's absolutely the fault of some American somewhere.
I understand completely anyone who thinks the military shouldn't be in other countries, or that this strike in particular was a bad idea, etc.
If I go shoot my neighbor's dog, and in retaliation he drives a bulldozer into your home because he is an idiot who doesn't understand how bulldozers work and he kills your kids...I don't think I'm responsible that the neighbor is a moron who killed your kids because he intended to kill me or scare me with his bulldozer. Maybe that's a fundamental difference in thinking how other people can be responsible for someone else's actions.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jan 13, 2020 13:46:53 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out how any rationally thinking person thinks it is anyone's fault other than Iran that Iran shot down a plane. I would understand it if the American military strike unintentionally shot down the plane, that's absolutely the fault of some American somewhere. I understand completely anyone who thinks the military shouldn't be in other countries, or that this strike in particular was a bad idea, etc. If I go shoot my neighbor's dog, and in retaliation he drives a bulldozer into your home because he is an idiot who doesn't understand how bulldozers work and he kills your kids...I don't think I'm responsible that the neighbor is a moron who killed your kids because he intended to kill me or scare me with his bulldozer. Maybe that's a fundamental difference in thinking how other people can be responsible for someone else's actions. If you know your neighbour is crazy and is going to go nuts if you shoot his dog you bear responsibility for the fall out. Especially if you don't tell your neighbours you are about to drive him crazy so they can take steps to protect themselves. Iran is responsible for shooting down the plane and we are not happy with them (to put it mildly) but they are not our ally. We don't expect any better from them. You are supposed to be our ally and consider our well being when taking action.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 13, 2020 14:02:07 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out how any rationally thinking person thinks it is anyone's fault other than Iran that Iran shot down a plane. I would understand it if the American military strike unintentionally shot down the plane, that's absolutely the fault of some American somewhere. I understand completely anyone who thinks the military shouldn't be in other countries, or that this strike in particular was a bad idea, etc. If I go shoot my neighbor's dog, and in retaliation he drives a bulldozer into your home because he is an idiot who doesn't understand how bulldozers work and he kills your kids...I don't think I'm responsible that the neighbor is a moron who killed your kids because he intended to kill me or scare me with his bulldozer. Maybe that's a fundamental difference in thinking how other people can be responsible for someone else's actions. If you know your neighbour is crazy and is going to go nuts if you shoot his dog you bear responsibility for the fall out. Especially if you don't tell your neighbours you are about to drive him crazy so they can take steps to protect themselves. Iran is responsible for shooting down the plane and we are not happy with them (to put it mildly) but they are not our ally. We don't expect any better from them. You are supposed to be our ally and consider our well being when taking action.I'm struggling to find what "consideration" anyone could have given in this case though. It doesn't seem like any set of rational steps leads to "maybe we should reconsider this military strike just in case Iran completely unintentionally shoots down a commercial flight that happens to have a bunch of Canadians on it". That just doesn't seem like a foreseeable thing to give consideration to. Beyond that though, let's say Trump calls Canada and gives them a heads-up so they can protect themselves. Nobody is going to be calling those commercial passengers to say "hey, heads up, the US is going to instigate a military strike against an Iranian, so don't get on that plane just in case Iran accidentally shoots it down". Nobody in Canada is going to say anything, they can't announce anything ahead of time, that's how surprise military strikes work. It would be different if Iran were holding Canadians hostage and then the US decided on their own to just initiate strikes that would get them killed. It's a lot harder to adequately predict things which even the perpetrator doesn't intend to do. There's a limitless list of actions anyone could ever take which could lead to potentially horrible unintended consequences.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jan 13, 2020 14:30:23 GMT -5
How about maybe we should reconsider this because it puts the whole region, including our allies at risk. It was well known that the Iranians would launch some kind of military retaliation. It is foreseeable that people will die in that situation.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 13, 2020 14:38:28 GMT -5
How about maybe we should reconsider this because it puts the whole region, including our allies at risk. It was well known that the Iranians would launch some kind of military retaliation. It is foreseeable that people will die in that situation. It is foreseeable that some people might die in that situation. I just don't think it's foreseeable that the actual thing which DID happen, was likely to happen. The reality is that much WORSE things could have happened, and I think that's the real discussion of consequences. The action is the action, and I just believe it's no more right or no more wrong if millions of people die in WWIII created from it, or 63 Canadians die (or whatever the number really is as I'm hearing other things as well) or if nobody dies. I think that's results-oriented, and I think a real examination of the action has to occur "as of" the time the action took place...at which time I just think this particular outcome is so unforeseeable that this specific outcome doesn't really sway whether it was a good move or not.
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 13, 2020 15:38:11 GMT -5
So when they say "death to America", we are not suppose to believe them? Yes, to the same degree of believing Merican's threatening to turn Iran into a parking lot. the threat is only real if you have the means to do it.
please explain to me how a group of desert dwellers with machine guns are going to exterminate 1/3B people half a planet away.
#idlethreats
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 13, 2020 22:18:46 GMT -5
Yes, to the same degree of believing Merican's threatening to turn Iran into a parking lot. the threat is only real if you have the means to do it.
please explain to me how a group of desert dwellers with machine guns are going to exterminate 1/3B people half a planet away.
#idlethreats
The biggest get was like 5,000 people in one day. At that rate, it will only take 192 years to extinguish the USA. Meanwhile, Russia is using the internet to break us into pieces so they can prove democracy doesn't work.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 13, 2020 23:41:50 GMT -5
the threat is only real if you have the means to do it.
please explain to me how a group of desert dwellers with machine guns are going to exterminate 1/3B people half a planet away.
#idlethreats
The biggest get was like 5,000 people in one day. At that rate, it will only take 192 years to extinguish the USA. Meanwhile, Russia is using the internet to break us into pieces so they can prove democracy doesn't work. What Russian message did you fall for?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jan 13, 2020 23:48:25 GMT -5
How about maybe we should reconsider this because it puts the whole region, including our allies at risk. It was well known that the Iranians would launch some kind of military retaliation. It is foreseeable that people will die in that situation. It is foreseeable that some people might die in that situation. I just don't think it's foreseeable that the actual thing which DID happen, was likely to happen. The reality is that much WORSE things could have happened, and I think that's the real discussion of consequences. The action is the action, and I just believe it's no more right or no more wrong if millions of people die in WWIII created from it, or 63 Canadians die (or whatever the number really is as I'm hearing other things as well) or if nobody dies. I think that's results-oriented, and I think a real examination of the action has to occur "as of" the time the action took place...at which time I just think this particular outcome is so unforeseeable that this specific outcome doesn't really sway whether it was a good move or not. I feel like you are talking in circles. Many things could have happened, this is what did happen. How exactly are you managing to dismiss it?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 14, 2020 0:55:00 GMT -5
The biggest get was like 5,000 people in one day. At that rate, it will only take 192 years to extinguish the USA. Meanwhile, Russia is using the internet to break us into pieces so they can prove democracy doesn't work. What Russian message did you fall for? The one where we aren't a good community - just disparate groups of people with irreconcilable differences.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 14, 2020 1:14:18 GMT -5
The biggest get was like 5,000 people in one day. At that rate, it will only take 192 years to extinguish the USA. Meanwhile, Russia is using the internet to break us into pieces so they can prove democracy doesn't work. What Russian message did you fall for? I didn't fall for any. That's why I didn't vote for their candidate.
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 14, 2020 1:50:54 GMT -5
What Russian message did you fall for? I didn't fall for any. That's why I didn't vote for their candidate. it's a bullshit question.
it is not a matter of who voted. it is who didn't vote, and why.
voter suppression is how the GOP has won since 2000. there has literally not been a single electoral exception.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 14, 2020 9:03:39 GMT -5
What Russian message did you fall for? The one where we aren't a good community - just disparate groups of people with irreconcilable differences. Thyme4change, unfortunately we have done it to ourselves! We didn't need any help.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 14, 2020 9:31:38 GMT -5
The one where we aren't a good community - just disparate groups of people with irreconcilable differences. Thyme4change, unfortunately we have done it to ourselves! We didn't need any help.
You and I will have to disagree on this one. I believe the intelligence community when they say that Russia absolutely has an effect. I believe in Russian bots, which aren't marked as Russian messages, but have many talking points that you do. I believe that seeds were sown, which were tended by US citizens, so we can't pinpoint their roots. I believe the people who know something about the subject, who have data and information. You denying it just because you can't understand the complexities of information flow won't deter me from listening to experts.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 14, 2020 10:03:05 GMT -5
Thyme4change, unfortunately we have done it to ourselves! We didn't need any help.
You and I will have to disagree on this one. I believe the intelligence community when they say that Russia absolutely has an effect. I believe in Russian bots, which aren't marked as Russian messages, but have many talking points that you do. I believe that seeds were sown, which were tended by US citizens, so we can't pinpoint their roots. I believe the people who know something about the subject, who have data and information. You denying it just because you can't understand the complexities of information flow won't deter me from listening to experts. OK, which Russian bot did you fall for?
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Jan 14, 2020 10:35:38 GMT -5
TRMP-X1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:06:35 GMT -5
How about maybe we should reconsider this because it puts the whole region, including our allies at risk. It was well known that the Iranians would launch some kind of military retaliation. It is foreseeable that people will die in that situation. It is foreseeable that some people might die in that situation. I just don't think it's foreseeable that the actual thing which DID happen, was likely to happen. The reality is that much WORSE things could have happened, and I think that's the real discussion of consequences. The action is the action, and I just believe it's no more right or no more wrong if millions of people die in WWIII created from it, or 63 Canadians die (or whatever the number really is as I'm hearing other things as well) or if nobody dies. I think that's results-oriented, and I think a real examination of the action has to occur "as of" the time the action took place...at which time I just think this particular outcome is so unforeseeable that this specific outcome doesn't really sway whether it was a good move or not. Well said. Hind sight is always 20/20
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:08:35 GMT -5
It is foreseeable that some people might die in that situation. I just don't think it's foreseeable that the actual thing which DID happen, was likely to happen. The reality is that much WORSE things could have happened, and I think that's the real discussion of consequences. The action is the action, and I just believe it's no more right or no more wrong if millions of people die in WWIII created from it, or 63 Canadians die (or whatever the number really is as I'm hearing other things as well) or if nobody dies. I think that's results-oriented, and I think a real examination of the action has to occur "as of" the time the action took place...at which time I just think this particular outcome is so unforeseeable that this specific outcome doesn't really sway whether it was a good move or not. I feel like you are talking in circles. Many things could have happened, this is what did happen. How exactly are you managing to dismiss it? More simply ? 'Anything' could of happened. (bolded) Hindsight is always 20/20
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thyme4change
Community Leader
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 14, 2020 17:59:00 GMT -5
You and I will have to disagree on this one. I believe the intelligence community when they say that Russia absolutely has an effect. I believe in Russian bots, which aren't marked as Russian messages, but have many talking points that you do. I believe that seeds were sown, which were tended by US citizens, so we can't pinpoint their roots. I believe the people who know something about the subject, who have data and information. You denying it just because you can't understand the complexities of information flow won't deter me from listening to experts. OK, which Russian bot did you fall for? Because they mascarade as regular people, it is impossible to tell. I believe a lot of things that likely came a source of disinformation. Just because I am willing to admit that I am vulnerable to normal persuasion doesn't mean I am cognizant enough to pinpoint every source of enlightenment that contributed to my belief system.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 15, 2020 8:47:59 GMT -5
It is foreseeable that some people might die in that situation. I just don't think it's foreseeable that the actual thing which DID happen, was likely to happen. The reality is that much WORSE things could have happened, and I think that's the real discussion of consequences. The action is the action, and I just believe it's no more right or no more wrong if millions of people die in WWIII created from it, or 63 Canadians die (or whatever the number really is as I'm hearing other things as well) or if nobody dies. I think that's results-oriented, and I think a real examination of the action has to occur "as of" the time the action took place...at which time I just think this particular outcome is so unforeseeable that this specific outcome doesn't really sway whether it was a good move or not. I feel like you are talking in circles. Many things could have happened, this is what did happen. How exactly are you managing to dismiss it? Because what could have happened, or specifically what is LIKELY to happen, is how you have to judge someone's actions in the moment. It's very difficult to judge someone's actions, or attribute blame, to a consequence which happened wholly from someone's unintended reaction (because if they didn't even intend the reaction it's pretty well impossible to predict it from the original action). Limiting yourself to actual results is just discussing random happenstance. In this case, the action at the moment can be judged regardless of the outcome. It was either a good decision or a bad decision, in the moment (every action can be easily judged with perfect 20/20 hindsight). So the action was good, or it was bad, and it was good or bad regardless of a commercial flight being unintentionally shot out of the sky which happened to have Canadians on it. If the action was 80% likely to cause WWIII, then it was bad...even if the 20% of outcomes that did NOT cause WWIII comes to pass.
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