justme
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Post by justme on Dec 9, 2019 11:47:25 GMT -5
One f the things I remember was the tools that I need to buy for work. A Estwing hammer was like $7.50, So more than a half a day work, that same hammer today is $16. A Stanley tape measure, was like $5.00. today you can buy a better one for $8.00. A 16oz Coke was like .25 to day at Mickey D's a super giant 44 oz. Coke is on the dollar menu. Gas for years was 32.9 cents for regular. Today a little over $3.00 here. In 1977 I bought a wheelbarrow, $49.95. today it cost less than that. In 1974, I bought my first roto hammer drill, $212.00,, today, a Bosch Roto hammer of the same size $199.00 In 1973, I bought my first new truck Ford F250, V-8 4 speed, 3325.00 in 2017 I bought a very nice Toyota 1/2 ton truck, all the bells and whistles, $56,000.00 A new GMC 1/2 ton Denali was 65000. before tax dealer prep, delivery charges. In 1966 the year we were married, the house we lived in was $35 a month. Excellent and lengthy deflection giving a 40+ year history of tool prices. Now how about that wage inflation scenario. Ready to put that together? I'm sure he never will, but I was curious. $1.25 in 1996 is now $9.93. Less than the $15/hour he was quoting - but higher than the current min wage and plenty are working under $15. What I think is the more telling story is the $35/month for a house. In today's dollars that would be $278. So while if one uses straight inflation on the dollars per hour people used to work, it doesn't seem like *that* bad of a story. But comparatively, there is no house that you can rent in the US for $278/month. The average rent in the US is $1405/month. That's 5 times higher than what OC was paying for his rent. For it to still be "equal" and "similar pay" the currently hourly wage OC should compare to his $1.25 isn't $9.93 but instead $50.15!!! Yes I'm well aware this a simplistic view and you can't just use one comparison, like housing, to accurately show the relativism of what a dollar could buy now vs then. But it is magnitudes better than OC's comparison of the cost of a fucking hammer that 1) not everyone buys and 2) is not a recurring monthly cost one needs to live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 11:59:52 GMT -5
i'm curious who here actually thinks that you should live good on minimum wage? What does "good" mean? And how does America address the problem that many many people will spend their lifetime working and remain at an income level at or a bit above the "minimum wage"? Think about that. "minimum wage jobs" are no longer "entry level" or "temporary" or jobs for wives who need "pin money" once their kids are in school. There are an awful lot of people who won't go on to higher paying jobs - because there AREN"T any higher paying jobs they can move up into. Interesting concept, especially the underlined. I would more ask, whatever happened to self responsibility, and the drive to succeed on your own. As in an equal opportunity type of response. Or has the safety net approach become ingrained, and become 'why bother', no need to take care of myself, some one else will pay. Or just raise the wages as in a command economy.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 9, 2019 13:09:29 GMT -5
In 1966 the year we were married, the house we lived in was $35 a month. How much would it be now? At least 20 or 30 times more? People don't really care about the price of wheelbarrows and hammers. They care about shelter. I would not have had that job with out those tools!
I would say my in my youth, things were harder than they are today, Here is a story from when I lived in Moon's country, My wife and I with a brand new baby( who turned 53 yesterday)lived in the back of an old house across from the railroad tracks and grain elevator. Out of work (fired, one of two times in my entire life) walked to the Tenneco station, to see if I could do a couple of hour work for them, like cleaning up or something! Happen to be a man the looking for some one to help unload a truck, I jumped at the chance, It was unloading 40,000 of crushed marble, one bag at a time 90# each! When you first start, the bags are right at the back of the trailer, when you and are really tired, you are carrying the from the front of that long trailer to the back,,
The guy helping me quit after the first hour, I unload the rest my self!,,, I made $6!! I worked thru lunch did not get paid for it,, didn't matter, I didn't have any lunch with me any way.
The owner offered me a job, I took it! I could walk to work, my car did not run. I worked there for a couple of month, the Co. was having money problems, funny thing ,the place burnt down on a friday night, all that resin for making plastic really burns good,
My paycheck burned down with the building, since I didn't get that afternoon,, matter of fact, I never got it!!
What does any of that have to do with my question? Deflect much? How much would that $35 rent be now?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 9, 2019 14:27:28 GMT -5
i'm curious who here actually thinks that you should live good on minimum wage? Perhaps you meant "live well"? There's no such thing as "live good". I suppose one can live well if you have more than one job, or if you live with another minimum wage worker and pool your resources.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Dec 9, 2019 18:36:36 GMT -5
What does "good" mean? And how does America address the problem that many many people will spend their lifetime working and remain at an income level at or a bit above the "minimum wage"? Think about that. "minimum wage jobs" are no longer "entry level" or "temporary" or jobs for wives who need "pin money" once their kids are in school. There are an awful lot of people who won't go on to higher paying jobs - because there AREN"T any higher paying jobs they can move up into. Interesting concept, especially the underlined. I would more ask, whatever happened to self responsibility, and the drive to succeed on your own. As in an equal opportunity type of response. Or has the safety net approach become ingrained, and become 'why bother', no need to take care of myself, some one else will pay. Or just raise the wages as in a command economy. Exactly, why do people think that there's no higher paying jobs out there. There are plenty of jobs if people aren't too lazy or stupid.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Dec 9, 2019 18:41:29 GMT -5
i'm curious who here actually thinks that you should live good on minimum wage? Perhaps you meant "live well"? There's no such thing as "live good". I suppose on can live well if you have more than one job, or if you live with another minimum wage worker and pool your resources. That's not what II was asking. Do you think people should live well while earning minimum wage? BTW I did mean live well, just like I suppose you ment one can live well instead of on can live. It's funny how people like to be the Grammer police but don't see their own mistakes
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Dec 9, 2019 19:14:09 GMT -5
Interesting concept, especially the underlined. I would more ask, whatever happened to self responsibility, and the drive to succeed on your own. As in an equal opportunity type of response. Or has the safety net approach become ingrained, and become 'why bother', no need to take care of myself, some one else will pay. Or just raise the wages as in a command economy. Exactly, why do people think that there's no higher paying jobs out there. There are plenty of jobs if people aren't too lazy or stupid. Why do YOU think there are no higher paying jobs out there? And considering the UE rate how many people do YOU think are too lazy or stupid.
Here is some good reading for those interested: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 9, 2019 19:59:14 GMT -5
Perhaps you meant "live well"? There's no such thing as "live good". I suppose on can live well if you have more than one job, or if you live with another minimum wage worker and pool your resources. That's not what II was asking. Do you think people should live well while earning minimum wage? BTW I did mean live well, just like I suppose you ment one can live well instead of on can live. It's funny how people like to be the Grammer police but don't see their own mistakes Mine was a typo, which is now corrected. You used the wrong word altogether.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 9, 2019 22:55:33 GMT -5
I would not have had that job with out those tools!
I would say my in my youth, things were harder than they are today, Here is a story from when I lived in Moon's country, My wife and I with a brand new baby( who turned 53 yesterday)lived in the back of an old house across from the railroad tracks and grain elevator. Out of work (fired, one of two times in my entire life) walked to the Tenneco station, to see if I could do a couple of hour work for them, like cleaning up or something! Happen to be a man the looking for some one to help unload a truck, I jumped at the chance, It was unloading 40,000 of crushed marble, one bag at a time 90# each! When you first start, the bags are right at the back of the trailer, when you and are really tired, you are carrying the from the front of that long trailer to the back,,
The guy helping me quit after the first hour, I unload the rest my self!,,, I made $6!! I worked thru lunch did not get paid for it,, didn't matter, I didn't have any lunch with me any way.
The owner offered me a job, I took it! I could walk to work, my car did not run. I worked there for a couple of month, the Co. was having money problems, funny thing ,the place burnt down on a friday night, all that resin for making plastic really burns good,
My paycheck burned down with the building, since I didn't get that afternoon,, matter of fact, I never got it!!
What does any of that have to do with my question? Deflect much? How much would that $35 rent be now? $36??
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Dec 9, 2019 23:29:59 GMT -5
What does any of that have to do with my question? Deflect much? How much would that $35 rent be now? $36?? Gosh! You are an incredible debater.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 9, 2019 23:56:10 GMT -5
Perhaps you meant "live well"? There's no such thing as "live good". I suppose on can live well if you have more than one job, or if you live with another minimum wage worker and pool your resources. That's not what II was asking. Do you think people should live well while earning minimum wage? BTW I did mean live well, just like I suppose you ment one can live well instead of on can live. It's funny how people like to be the Grammer police but don't see their own mistakes the FMW was designed to be a living wage, not a survival wage.
I agree with that concept.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Dec 10, 2019 0:12:19 GMT -5
That's not what II was asking. Do you think people should live well while earning minimum wage? BTW I did mean live well, just like I suppose you ment one can live well instead of on can live. It's funny how people like to be the Grammer police but don't see their own mistakes the FMW was designed to be a living wage, not a survival wage.
I agree with that concept.
Anyone begrudging someone making a wage that allows them to live a life of human dignity is a squeeze bag that has sold their soul to corporate profit. I once again suggest everyone read the first person account about a couple that moved to Finland from America. This past Sunday’s NY Times. Enlightened capitalism and not Venezuelan socialism that the Repo-Cons keep pretending we will get in America. I’d link it but I’m on my phone and OC still hasn’t told me how to do it.😳
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Dec 10, 2019 7:12:25 GMT -5
That's not what II was asking. Do you think people should live well while earning minimum wage? BTW I did mean live well, just like I suppose you ment one can live well instead of on can live. It's funny how people like to be the Grammer police but don't see their own mistakes the FMW was designed to be a living wage, not a survival wage.
I agree with that concept.
When it was designed the standard was what it cost to feed a person x3. It was a survival wage.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Dec 10, 2019 7:17:12 GMT -5
the FMW was designed to be a living wage, not a survival wage.
I agree with that concept.
Anyone begrudging someone making a wage that allows them to live a life of human dignity is a squeeze bag that has sold their soul to corporate profit. I once again suggest everyone read the first person account about a couple that moved to Finland from America. This past Sunday’s NY Times. Enlightened capitalism and not Venezuelan socialism that the Repo-Cons keep pretending we will get in America. I’d link it but I’m on my phone and OC still hasn’t told me how to do it.😳 I don't begrudge anyone from earning a wage...the word here is earning. You shouldn't get a higher wage just by walking in the door. You talk about corporate profit what about the Lil mom and pop businesses
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 10, 2019 10:15:36 GMT -5
Excellent and lengthy deflection giving a 40+ year history of tool prices. Now how about that wage inflation scenario. Ready to put that together? I'm sure he never will, but I was curious. $1.25 in 1996 is now $9.93. Less than the $15/hour he was quoting - but higher than the current min wage and plenty are working under $15. What I think is the more telling story is the $35/month for a house. In today's dollars that would be $278. So while if one uses straight inflation on the dollars per hour people used to work, it doesn't seem like *that* bad of a story. But comparatively, there is no house that you can rent in the US for $278/month. The average rent in the US is $1405/month. That's 5 times higher than what OC was paying for his rent. For it to still be "equal" and "similar pay" the currently hourly wage OC should compare to his $1.25 isn't $9.93 but instead $50.15!!! Yes I'm well aware this a simplistic view and you can't just use one comparison, like housing, to accurately show the relativism of what a dollar could buy now vs then. But it is magnitudes better than OC's comparison of the cost of a fucking hammer that 1) not everyone buys and 2) is not a recurring monthly cost one needs to live. Well for me in 1966, A hammer cost me at least a half a days pay, it was one of the tool required to work, By the way I now have a massive hammer collection! A hammer is something I still use every day! I still buy Estwing today, They make a great ball pein hammer, I have from the smallest to the largest! As far as $50.15 ,, I make more than that now. The also work as an attitude adjustment tool!! I happened to have one in my hand when a fired employee showed up to collect his final check. It seems he took off two weeks unannounced to visit his mother who lived in Chile, surprised that I fired him,
was upset, especially when he found out I paid him for the hours he worked not the hours he put on his time sheet.
Uhhhhh, No I am not going to pay you for taking off the job to run your girlfriend to college, using my truck, every day! This one made it to the Labor Relations Board,,I won the case,, Easy, I kept my mouth shut,, Let him hang himself.
I had too admit I was impressed with the interviewer when the employee hung himself,, never changed his expression when even I knew he was dead in the water!! A note for those of you who say Trump does not pay his bills,, Just like my ex-employee,, I am not going to pay you for your lies!!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Dec 10, 2019 11:26:51 GMT -5
One f the things I remember was the tools that I need to buy for work. A Estwing hammer was like $7.50, So more than a half a day work, that same hammer today is $16. A Stanley tape measure, was like $5.00. today you can buy a better one for $8.00. A 16oz Coke was like .25 to day at Mickey D's a super giant 44 oz. Coke is on the dollar menu. Gas for years was 32.9 cents for regular. Today a little over $3.00 here. In 1977 I bought a wheelbarrow, $49.95. today it cost less than that. In 1974, I bought my first roto hammer drill, $212.00,, today, a Bosch Roto hammer of the same size $199.00 In 1973, I bought my first new truck Ford F250, V-8 4 speed, 3325.00 in 2017 I bought a very nice Toyota 1/2 ton truck, all the bells and whistles, $56,000.00 A new GMC 1/2 ton Denali was 65000. before tax dealer prep, delivery charges. In 1966 the year we were married, the house we lived in was $35 a month. You can compare all the prices you want...however, most tools aren't made today like they were back then and many don't have the same replacement guarantees either! I'd much rather buy an older tool since they were built to last, not like many today with plastic parts in their inner workings. And I was making a whole 0.90 an hr. when I started working, so big deal...that was the going rate at that time & as a single woman, I was able to live on it...renting a furnished apartment, having a vehicle so buying gas & paying insurance & buying groceries & clothes & still had $$ for going out to party on weekends...and eating out on weekends too. My grocery bill usually was about $6-$7 & that normally lasted me for 2 weeks or more. Then in the very early 70's, I was feeding a family of 3 for a total of $10-$12 a week & that included steak one night during that week! I was also making more as a waitress in a fancy restaurant than my hubby was making as a journeyman trim carpenter. Times change, prices go up. Just try renting a furnished apt. for $30 a month now! A nice apt. & nice furnishings too, not fancy, but nice! ETA...and that apartment was a nice sized one in Ca....can you imagine renting anything in Ca. for that price today? It was in both the Santa Ana area & Inglewood area (LA).Not sure about Santa Ana/ Inglewood area now, but if you come north (where I live), and you add two zeroes to the rent (as in $3,000) you can probably find something unfurnished. Nothing fancy mind you or large, but decent
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2019 11:40:50 GMT -5
the FMW was designed to be a living wage, not a survival wage.
I agree with that concept.
When it was designed the standard was what it cost to feed a person x3. It was a survival wage. nope it was designed as a living wage. here is the designer, speaking about it:
"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
the language could not possibly be clearer.
I think that the second sentence is particularly lucid. if you can't afford to pay a living wage, you should get out of business.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Dec 11, 2019 22:23:57 GMT -5
This looks like a puff piece put out by the Union trying to organize workers. You might be on to something... Quote; A nalysis / Bias
In review, the Hartford Courant covers local news with field journalist and national news through the Associated Press. All articles are sourced to credible information and sourced. Editorially, more op-eds favor the left by a moderate amount.
mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-hartford-courant/That the Hartford Courant favors the left MODERATLY is no surprise to me...Connecticut is a heavy Blue State...less the small area close to New York City...known as the "Gold Coast"..very wealthy...populated by heads of Wall Street companies..entertainers..TV personalities...also the State has in general, a highly educated population... "Overall, we rate the Hartford Courant Left-Center biased based on editorial positions and High for factual reporting due to sourcing. Detailed Report Factual Reporting: HIGH Country: USA World Press Freedom Rank: USA 45/180 History The Hartford Courant is the largest daily newspaper in the U.S. state of Connecticut, and is often recognized as the oldest continuously published newspaper in the United States. The publisher is Andrew Julien...…"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 9:00:04 GMT -5
You might be on to something... Quote; A nalysis / Bias
In review, the Hartford Courant covers local news with field journalist and national news through the Associated Press. All articles are sourced to credible information and sourced. Editorially, more op-eds favor the left by a moderate amount.
mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-hartford-courant/ That the Hartford Courant favors the left MODERATLY is no surprise to me...Connecticut is a heavy Blue State...less the small area close to New York City...known as the "Gold Coast"..very wealthy...populated by heads of Wall Street companies..entertainers..TV personalities...also the State has in general, a highly educated population... "Overall, we rate the Hartford Courant Left-Center biased based on editorial positions and High for factual reporting due to sourcing. Detailed Report Factual Reporting: HIGH Country: USA World Press Freedom Rank: USA 45/180 History The Hartford Courant is the largest daily newspaper in the U.S. state of Connecticut, and is often recognized as the oldest continuously published newspaper in the United States. The publisher is Andrew Julien...…" Which doesn't disallow puff pieces.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 9:09:09 GMT -5
When it was designed the standard was what it cost to feed a person x3. It was a survival wage. nope it was designed as a living wage. here is the designer, speaking about it:
"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
the language could not possibly be clearer.
I think that the second sentence is particularly lucid. if you can't afford to pay a living wage, you should get out of business.
The only reason this discussion takes place, is the seemingly deliberate vagueness of the terms 'living wage' or 'decent living'. He never said in regards to what standard.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 15, 2019 1:05:27 GMT -5
nope it was designed as a living wage. here is the designer, speaking about it:
"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
the language could not possibly be clearer.
I think that the second sentence is particularly lucid. if you can't afford to pay a living wage, you should get out of business.
The only reason this discussion takes place, is the seemingly deliberate vagueness of the terms 'living wage' or 'decent living'. He never said in regards to what standard. I think he was amply clear.
if you are claiming that the idea of "living wage" is abstract, I agree, for the record.
however, within the range of that abstraction, it is clear that what it does NOT mean: wages that are barely sufficient to eek out an existence, wages that are suitable only for kids living at home with parents, etc. and that is clear because FDR made it clear. this persistent case that FMW is any of those things is either a deliberate lie or more likely a failure to properly research what the FMW was intended to do.
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