zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 20, 2019 19:25:15 GMT -5
If that were the case then she would have a problem with all people in costume. Perhaps the person wearing the princess costume actually believes they are a princess. Why on earth would she expose her child to someone like that then? So I don't really believe that is the case. Because there aren't a string of people growing in society to a relatively large grouping that believe they are literal fairy tale princesses, or believe they are actually Mickey Mouse, etc. I fully believe her in this instance. She has a picture in her head of what a transgender person looks like. She can't distinguish visually between a transgender person and a drag queen. In her mind she has a reasonable belief that most people who dress up as Mickey Mouse to read to kids are doing so as a costume, rather than a genuine belief that they are actually Mickey Mouse. And honestly, whether you agree with her or not...that's probably a pretty legitimate belief in comparison of those 2 things. Out of 100 biological men dressed as women going to read books to kids at a library, there is a FAR greater chance that those individuals are actually transgendered than the chances of 100 biological men dressed as Mickey Mouse doing the same who actually believe they are Mickey Mouse. Are you trying to be rational here? Because it’s pretty useless in dealing with this nonsense.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 20, 2019 19:25:29 GMT -5
Meh, I just assume the manly men go commando and assume the beta males wear women’s panties :-p I wouldn't be too sure about that...usually the "manly men" are compensating for something. Also, going commando just means the dude is going to have shit stains in his pants rather than his drawers. Lol and ewww
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 20, 2019 19:26:43 GMT -5
Meh, I just assume the manly men go commando and assume the beta males wear women’s panties :-p I wouldn't be too sure about that...usually the "manly men" are compensating for something. Also, going commando just means the dude is going to have shit stains in his pants rather than his drawers. Ugh. That’s a visual I could go without. Hopefully they wash their own clothes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 20, 2019 19:37:33 GMT -5
I'll be interested to see reactions to this. I read a few studies a few weeks back (maybe related to this one as well I don't know) talking about this. As generations go on, men have less testosterone, and directly related to that is that men become better and better fathers (or more engaged fathers, I would say that classifies as "better"). So is it terrible that guys are having less and less testosterone? Or is it great that they're becoming better, more engaged fathers and partners? I haven't read this, but when my DH and I were trying to get pregnant, it was brought up by his doctor that modern day men and much fewer swimmers than they used to. Could be because of all the medications in the water supply these days. That’s actually scary. No wonder men are changing :-(
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 20, 2019 20:56:51 GMT -5
Now you're "skirting" the issue. (see what I did there?) I’m not skirting the issue. I don’t give a shit what you canadiens deal with. It’s your problem. You like to make our problems yours for some bizarre reason. Lol! Irrespective of the nationality of the person who commented on the issue, you failed to address it. "I understand. A person who kisses his wife in public is some kind of pervert, but a man who cheated on all three of his wives is someone to vote for."
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 20, 2019 21:25:27 GMT -5
If that were the case then she would have a problem with all people in costume. Perhaps the person wearing the princess costume actually believes they are a princess. Why on earth would she expose her child to someone like that then? So I don't really believe that is the case. That is ludicrous. How many people dress up as Superman actually believe they are Superman? Counter that with % of men dressed as women that think they are women. You just like to argue. About as ludicrous as you stating that drag queens think they are women and that their character they're playing is any different than any other character. Oh yeah, and that transgender people need mental help. Thank you for proving my point.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 20, 2019 21:28:31 GMT -5
That is ludicrous. How many people dress up as Superman actually believe they are Superman? Counter that with % of men dressed as women that think they are women. You just like to argue. About as ludicrous as you stating that drag queens think they are women and that their character they're playing is any different than any other character. Oh yeah, and that transgender people need mental help. Thank you for proving my point. I think there's a pretty large gap between "drag queens think they are women" and "I can't tell the difference by looking at someone whether they are dressed that way because they are a drag queen or transgender".
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 20, 2019 22:00:29 GMT -5
That is ludicrous. How many people dress up as Superman actually believe they are Superman? Counter that with % of men dressed as women that think they are women. You just like to argue. A lot of drag queens don't believe they're women. They just like to dress like them and go all out with the makeup and hair. Many dress "normally" most of the time. Then you have me on the other end that despises wearing skirts and dresses and Andi spends more on one makeup buying trip to the mall than I have my entire life. I really don't think you and I could be much more opposite. I think you're pretty cool anyway.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 20, 2019 22:05:22 GMT -5
About as ludicrous as you stating that drag queens think they are women and that their character they're playing is any different than any other character. Oh yeah, and that transgender people need mental help. Thank you for proving my point. I think there's a pretty large gap between "drag queens think they are women" and "I can't tell the difference by looking at someone whether they are dressed that way because they are a drag queen or transgender". True. I honestly don't care about whether someone can tell or not. The answer I was trying to get was why a drag queen is different than any other character and why is it inappropriate when the others aren't. It's a character someone is playing, nothing more.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 20, 2019 22:16:57 GMT -5
I think there's a pretty large gap between "drag queens think they are women" and "I can't tell the difference by looking at someone whether they are dressed that way because they are a drag queen or transgender". True. I honestly don't care about whether someone can tell or not. The answer I was trying to get was why a drag queen is different than any other character and why is it inappropriate when the others aren't. It's a character someone is playing, nothing more. And I answered you time and time again. The fact that you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I didn’t answer you. You continue to argue when there is zero to argue about. We disagree but you can’t just leave it at that. You insist you are right and I’m wrong even though it’s MY OPINION you are debating. Here’s a tip...you don’t get to tell someone that their own opinion isn’t good enough. My opinion doesn’t have to satisfy you. It’s mine and mine alone. You don’t like it, too bad. I didn’t prove any point you had. You are proving that you won’t let anyone have an opinion that differs from yours.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 20, 2019 22:32:52 GMT -5
I think there's a pretty large gap between "drag queens think they are women" and "I can't tell the difference by looking at someone whether they are dressed that way because they are a drag queen or transgender". True. I honestly don't care about whether someone can tell or not. The answer I was trying to get was why a drag queen is different than any other character and why is it inappropriate when the others aren't. It's a character someone is playing, nothing more. Your question pre-supposes the answer though. You're asking "why is a drag queen any different than another costume"...but the answer is "it's not, but in the scenario I don't know that it's actually a drag queen". The real question driving the argument is "How do I know the person dressed as Mickey Mouse considers it a costume?". The answer is "experience and common sense". The question of "How do I know the man dressed as a woman is a drag queen"?" The answer is "I have no idea if they are or not, and one answer is no more likely than the other really". You will know, or have a better idea, that the person is a drag queen if you go to a drag show where they are performing and it is advertised as such. If you simply see a "male" dressed as a female, you will have no idea upon looking at them whether they are a crossdresser, drag queen, or transgendered. Your question determines which of the 3 they are, then asks a question based on that determination...the other side's issue isn't in your question, it's in the ability to actually determine which of the 3 the person is.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 20, 2019 22:50:58 GMT -5
True. I honestly don't care about whether someone can tell or not. The answer I was trying to get was why a drag queen is different than any other character and why is it inappropriate when the others aren't. It's a character someone is playing, nothing more. And I answered you time and time again. The fact that you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I didn’t answer you. You continue to argue when there is zero to argue about. We disagree but you can’t just leave it at that. You insist you are right and I’m wrong even though it’s MY OPINION you are debating. Here’s a tip...you don’t get to tell someone that their own opinion isn’t good enough. My opinion doesn’t have to satisfy you. It’s mine and mine alone. You don’t like it, too bad. I didn’t prove any point you had. You are proving that you won’t let anyone have an opinion that differs from yours. No you didn't. You kept telling me that you don't know if they think they're women. That's not what I asked you. I never said whether I liked your answer or not because you never answered. And I never implied that that your opinion was good enough. If I did, please quote me and show me. Just as you said I insulted you and when asked to show me where, you didn't answer. You actually do that a lot. Either that or you deflect. You stated "facts" and when asked to back them up, you go silent. I'm not referring to this thread specifically, just you in general.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 20, 2019 22:55:41 GMT -5
True. I honestly don't care about whether someone can tell or not. The answer I was trying to get was why a drag queen is different than any other character and why is it inappropriate when the others aren't. It's a character someone is playing, nothing more. Your question pre-supposes the answer though. You're asking "why is a drag queen any different than another costume"...but the answer is "it's not, but in the scenario I don't know that it's actually a drag queen". The real question driving the argument is "How do I know the person dressed as Mickey Mouse considers it a costume?". The answer is "experience and common sense". The question of "How do I know the man dressed as a woman is a drag queen"?" The answer is "I have no idea if they are or not, and one answer is no more likely than the other really". You will know, or have a better idea, that the person is a drag queen if you go to a drag show where they are performing and it is advertised as such. If you simply see a "male" dressed as a female, you will have no idea upon looking at them whether they are a crossdresser, drag queen, or transgendered. Your question determines which of the 3 they are, then asks a question based on that determination...the other side's issue isn't in your question, it's in the ability to actually determine which of the 3 the person is. I would partly agree with you if her answer had been "it's not any different than any other character". That's not the answer I got, in fact I didn't get any answer. Just random comparisons that don't make any sense. I never asked if she could tell if they think that they're women. In fact, I'm not the only one that informed her that they don't.
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oped
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Post by oped on Nov 20, 2019 22:59:08 GMT -5
Wait. Is the argument that transgendered people are secretly hijacking Drag Queen Story Hour? Lmao.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 20, 2019 23:03:31 GMT -5
Why in the world were drag queens doing story hour? Why not? They're people just like you are. Noooo, I may dress funny,, But I don't wear high heels!
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 21, 2019 6:53:50 GMT -5
Why not? They're people just like you are. Noooo, I may dress funny,, But I don't wear high heels! That's not what I heard.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 21, 2019 6:57:30 GMT -5
And I answered you time and time again. The fact that you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I didn’t answer you. You continue to argue when there is zero to argue about. We disagree but you can’t just leave it at that. You insist you are right and I’m wrong even though it’s MY OPINION you are debating. Here’s a tip...you don’t get to tell someone that their own opinion isn’t good enough. My opinion doesn’t have to satisfy you. It’s mine and mine alone. You don’t like it, too bad. I didn’t prove any point you had. You are proving that you won’t let anyone have an opinion that differs from yours. No you didn't. You kept telling me that you don't know if they think they're women. That's not what I asked you. I never said whether I liked your answer or not because you never answered. And I never implied that that your opinion was good enough. If I did, please quote me and show me. Just as you said I insulted you and when asked to show me where, you didn't answer. You actually do that a lot. Either that or you deflect. You stated "facts" and when asked to back them up, you go silent. I'm not referring to this thread specifically, just you in general.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Nov 21, 2019 7:51:11 GMT -5
hahaha...I want to take the test to confirm my ancestory, but you've seen my picture. I need to share your SPF50!lol I'm mostly Scotch-Irish, but I tan really well. I am 1% Native and 1% Italian, so maybe that explains my skin. I would think from the results I would be translucent. My mother and most of her sisters had black hair and tanned well. My grandfather used to joke that they were Spaniards from Yoker (an area of Glasgow) . BTW... small pet peeve. We are Scots not Scotch. A Scot is a person and a Scotch is a drink .
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Nov 21, 2019 8:02:55 GMT -5
I don't really get a lot of the "crossdressing". It seems pretty straightforward in some cases I suppose...a man dresses up in a fancy dress and wears makeup and hair in a "womanly" way. If my wife and I both wear a t-shirt and jeans with some sneakers...which one of us is crossdressing to look like the opposite sex though? Can a woman ever REALLY "dress" as a man? I mean I know there are female crossdressers...but given that women seem to be able to pretty much wear anything...how can you tell (meaning specifically, how can you tell if you aren't at a show where someone is painting on facial hair or something, which isn't really crossdressing because it's not the dressing that does it)? Like what clothing a woman put on that would be a big flashing red light that they are a crossdresser and not just randomly wearing their normal clothes? It seems like in reality it's a lot of "women can just wear whatever, it's fine, but men should always look a certain way (or maybe more specifically, should NEVER look a certain way)". In general I think it's harder for women to crossdress and it's most obvious when it's part of a performance. I really wish I knew how to insert an image instead of just posting a link! Anyway, the image below is from "Babylon Berlin", which is a phenomenal series on Netflix... but definitely not one to watch with kids around. www.google.com/search?q=babylon+berlin&sxsrf=ACYBGNQDUSKR1s2LRzhcInTte56s1CO-MQ:1574341018121&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwu4-prfvlAhVxh-AKHR4sC1QQ_AUoA3oECBQQBQ&biw=1707&bih=838&dpr=1.13#imgrc=DfWEZcY47Vaj_M:
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Nov 21, 2019 8:21:05 GMT -5
Nope, my views have nothing to do with whether people look good in their clothes or not. Lord knows I see a lot of women wearing clothes that look terrible because they are trying to either dress like someone much younger or someone much smaller. And yes, if I took my child to story hour and the women reading to the children was dressed like a stripper, I would also leave. I do understand that a drag queen is a costume as part of a show. And I would go see a drag queen show and have a blast. I'm an adult and I know it is entertainment. But men wearing skirts or dresses in normal life is not normal. Tampons in the men's bathroom is not normal. Biological men competing against females on female teams is not normal. I am 100% against normalize this new trend so my children would not be attending story hour hosted by a man in a dress and heels. Kilts? One of my friends got married in a kilt. He's very proud of his Irish heritage. There's a big difference between a traditional kilt and a women's skirt. Yes, I know they look very similar but the connotation is different. Being from Scotland I have seen men wearing kilts a lot. To be frank I highly doubt that a man who is a crossdresser or a transgender woman would wear the kilt because it's association is definitely masculine and not feminine.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 21, 2019 8:30:40 GMT -5
Kilts? One of my friends got married in a kilt. He's very proud of his Irish heritage. There's a big difference between a traditional kilt and a women's skirt. Yes, I know they look very similar but the connotation is different. Being from Scotland I have seen men wearing kilts a lot. To be frank I highly doubt that a man who is a crossdresser or a transgender woman would wear the kilt because it's association is definitely masculine and not feminine. Oh, I totally understand that. But, in essence, a kilt is a skirt, just a different cut, and there goes the argument that manly men don't wear skirts.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Nov 21, 2019 8:40:26 GMT -5
There's a big difference between a traditional kilt and a women's skirt. Yes, I know they look very similar but the connotation is different. Being from Scotland I have seen men wearing kilts a lot. To be frank I highly doubt that a man who is a crossdresser or a transgender woman would wear the kilt because it's association is definitely masculine and not feminine. Oh, I totally understand that. But, in essence, a kilt is a skirt, just a different cut, and there goes the argument that manly men don't wear skirts. I guess that's a bit of cultural difference. No Scot would think of the kilt as being a skirt.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 21, 2019 8:46:17 GMT -5
Oh, I totally understand that. But, in essence, a kilt is a skirt, just a different cut, and there goes the argument that manly men don't wear skirts. I guess that's a bit of cultural difference. No Scot would think of the kilt as being a skirt. The Scot wouldn't, but in the context of a random person seeing someone wearing a skirt or kilt (random person appearing male), the random person is unlikely to know whether it's immediately a skirt or kilt. Admittedly, I'm the one who brought kilts into the discussion, the context was essentially..."You're not ok with a man wearing a womanly garment reading stories at the library...if it's a guy wearing a kilt or a skirt that looks a lot like a kilt, what's the difference?" They look (or can look) similar enough that there's little discernible difference to the random person looking, certainly most kids won't immediately know the difference. Essentially, these 2 things look pretty similar...how in the world is it ok to wear one and not the other?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 21, 2019 9:09:45 GMT -5
Oh, I totally understand that. But, in essence, a kilt is a skirt, just a different cut, and there goes the argument that manly men don't wear skirts. I guess that's a bit of cultural difference. No Scot would think of the kilt as being a skirt. And I never thought of a kilt as a skirt nor did I think of it as something feminine.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Nov 21, 2019 9:22:26 GMT -5
My wife and I talked about this recently and both came to the same answer. There is no reason for a drag queen to read at story hour. I have to ask this question why do they feel the need to dress in drag to read to children?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 21, 2019 9:59:01 GMT -5
I guess that's a bit of cultural difference. No Scot would think of the kilt as being a skirt. The Scot wouldn't, but in the context of a random person seeing someone wearing a skirt or kilt (random person appearing male), the random person is unlikely to know whether it's immediately a skirt or kilt. Admittedly, I'm the one who brought kilts into the discussion, the context was essentially..."You're not ok with a man wearing a womanly garment reading stories at the library...if it's a guy wearing a kilt or a skirt that looks a lot like a kilt, what's the difference?" They look (or can look) similar enough that there's little discernible difference to the random person looking, certainly most kids won't immediately know the difference. Essentially, these 2 things look pretty similar...how in the world is it ok to wear one and not the other? A guy in our neighborhood used to wear a kilt - like for every day stuff - the grocery store, taking the dog for a walk, etc. It was a dull khaki/olive color, but shaped like a kilt. To me, it seemed quite practical in the heat.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Nov 21, 2019 9:59:47 GMT -5
Why not? They're entertaining. This is how they dress when they entertain. It's no different than dressing as any other character. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it can't be done. If you don't like it, don't look. That an apply to any style of dress, masculine or feminine.
ETA: My response was to ednkris, not Thyme.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 21, 2019 10:02:13 GMT -5
My wife and I talked about this recently and both came to the same answer. There is no reason for a drag queen to read at story hour. I have to ask this question why do they feel the need to dress in drag to read to children? May I ask your age? People with young children right now are millennials. Many of them don't care. They want to teach their children that people are people, and sure, there are weirdos out there, but maybe they are awesome weirdos and if you meet people where they are, you may gain something from it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 10:06:01 GMT -5
My wife and I talked about this recently and both came to the same answer. There is no reason for a drag queen to read at story hour. I have to ask this question why do they feel the need to dress in drag to read to children? There's no reason for them NOT to read at story hour. I have suffered through some pretty freaking drab and boring librarians at story hour as a kid.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 21, 2019 10:27:11 GMT -5
It isn't going to make boys who don't already want to dress up like Elsa suddenly want to. Most kids won't think much if anything about it once they leave the library that day. For the (very small) number of boys out there that are getting to an age where they will start to hear it isn't okay to like pink, or have long hair, or dress up they can see that someone out there might be like them. And for the kids who don't feel that way they also have some frame of reference that it isn't a big deal. If neighbor kid Timmy comes over to play dressed up like Elsa, then we'll play real life plants vs. zombies, but Elsa Zombie has freezing powers, or whatever wacky but fun game they come up with.
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