How far should I go?

[thyme4change]

There is a person at work who will be retiring next year. This person might be the lowest paid person in our division. If not, they would definitely be close to the bottom. They have worked for the company for decades. I just got word from corporate that since they are retiring anyway, we will give them zero raise. I think that is a pretty shitty thing to do. I'm guessing it would be around $1,000. Technically, this person reports to me, although I do almost zero to manage them. I am considering asking to reduce my raise to cover the raise for this person. Is that crazy? My base would be lower for all future raises, but, as I said, maybe a grand-ish.

Would management think I'm a sucker and hold it against me? Should I even care about that since I'm not on the fast track here anyway?

[Deleted]

When are they retiring?  Are you offering up to reduce your raise for potentially years to give them a little extra for a few months? 

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 14:05:33 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

When are they retiring?  Are you offering up to reduce your raise for potentially years to give them a little extra for a few months? 

Yes. I believe my lack of raise would become part of my new base, so I would never really recover the money. My only hope would be that if I offered, someone would feel like an asshole, and find such a small sum of money to cover everyone with the normal adjustment.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 18, 2019 13:53:17 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

There is a person at work who will be retiring next year. This person might be the lowest paid person in our division. If not, they would definitely be close to the bottom. They have worked for the company for decades. I just got word from corporate that since they are retiring anyway, we will give them zero raise. I think that is a pretty shitty thing to do. I'm guessing it would be around $1,000. Technically, this person reports to me, although I do almost zero to manage them. I am considering asking to reduce my raise to cover the raise for this person. Is that crazy? My base would be lower for all future raises, but, as I said, maybe a grand-ish.

Would management think I'm a sucker and hold it against me? Should I even care about that since I'm not on the fast track here anyway?

push for this person's raise without offering up your money and see how far you can get.

This is essentially age discrimination. Approach with higher ups as this is opening the company up to a lawsuit.



#thisissupershitty

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 14:13:42 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Don't do it.   if you want, send her $1000,    Leave her $1000 in cash in her coat pocket.  Have $1000 in visa gift cards mailed to her house.  Make up a fake raffle for $1000 that she wins.  Just don't look like a chump in front of all of upper management by asking for a raise swap.  

I have thought about just giving them $500 upon retirement. It wouldn't cover it all, but it also wouldn't be subject to taxes. I think it would be weird to give such a gift, but I could probably make it happen.

[justme]

Do you really have any reason to have faith that they would do it? My dept just lost the 4th analyst (out of a total of 7) since July and even after bringing up my pay is low compared to market they just confirmed today only a 3% raise for me - and they were happy about it because 3% is greater than I've ever got here. They're likely going to have just a bunch of newbies soon - other current analysts are under 3 years, just over a year, and two under a month. 

[Deleted]

Call a meeting with the finance/HR decision makers and point out how shitty it is and how that doesn’t match the company values.

That’s what I did earlier this year when it appeared one of my employees was going to be snubbed a couple grand.

They paid.

[gs11rmb]

Nov 18, 2019 14:19:17 GMT -5 @aj said:

Call a meeting with the finance/HR decision makers and point out how shitty it is and how that doesn’t match the company values.

That’s what I did earlier this year when it appeared one of my employees was going to be snubbed a couple grand.

They paid.

  perhaps you could also mention that it "seems" discriminatory.  I don't know if it is or is not discriminatory but I do know that companies are very reluctant to do anything that could be perceived in that way.

[NastyWoman]

and now we know why you should never tell your boss too early that you intend to retire. If you do you assume that they are going to treat you fairly, but that is not always the case: it is better to keep in mind that the only one that will look out for your best interest is you. If I worked at this place and caught wind of what they were doing to this person, they would get exactly one day notice from me when I would be ready to retire. 

Taking another job would be different since you might need them for future reference, but retiring...

[souldoubt]

To echo what MPL said when is this person retiring?  I've seen situations where people give notice that they're leaving early in the following year and they don't end up getting raises.  I've always looked at base raises as a way to entice people to stay on but when you give notice you're leaving then you have no leverage.  I'd go with Archie's suggestion because then that money is yours going forward.  I'd probably speak my mind to the person above me and let him/her know I think that person should get a raise but that's about it.  That's not something I'm going to bring in HR/management and so on when I'm the one who will be sticking around and continuing their career.  

[Miss Tequila]

I would definitely not reduce my base compensation.  That is not just a one-off for next year.  You will lose thousands of dollars.

I'm not sure how your raise structure works.  My last company, we were given a pool of dollars and we had to sit in the room and determine who got what.  We were given 3% of compensation to work with but it was up to us to divvy it up.  Some people got nothing, some people got 10%.  But there was a basis for what we did and it was signed off by HR.  Performance appraisals were a big part of it.  But it was also not just me and the VP of HR making the decisions.  That was the beauty in it.

Report your concerns and ask how it was determined that this person gets nothing.  Are her/his performance appraisals where they should be?  If you still disagree, then bring up how it smells of age discrimination and you want to protect the company.  I have found that it always works best to look like you are acting on behalf of the company interests then to tell them they are being assholes

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 14:31:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

and now we know why you should never tell your boss too early that you intend to retire. If you do you assume that they are going to treat you fairly, but that is not always the case: it is better to keep in mind that the only one that will look out for your best interest is you. If I worked at this place and caught wind of what they were doing to this person, they would get exactly one day notice from me when I would be ready to retire. 

Taking another job would be different since you might need them for future reference, but retiring...

I have seen a dozen cases of people trying to be "nice" by informing their bosses ahead of time that they will leave the company in x number of months. I think every one of those people got screwed. I'm kinda pissed at the guy who told corporate. There was no gain there for him either. He just can't keep his mouth shut. I think he expected them to throw flowers at his feet for announcing that he wasn't planning on replacing the person. He could have waited and gotten the flowers next year, when it actually happened.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why employees give 2 weeks notice. Companies don't care.

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 14:26:19 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Nov 18, 2019 14:19:17 GMT -5 @aj said:

Call a meeting with the finance/HR decision makers and point out how shitty it is and how that doesn’t match the company values.

That’s what I did earlier this year when it appeared one of my employees was going to be snubbed a couple grand.

They paid.

  perhaps you could also mention that it "seems" discriminatory.  I don't know if it is or is not discriminatory but I do know that companies are very reluctant to do anything that could be perceived in that way.

Reading this thread, I do recall a similar thing that happened at my old company, so I just pinged back with a two sentence story about how costly the decision was for my old company and reiterated that the amount of money we are discussing is very small. I haven't heard back, and don't expect to. But I will eventually find out.

[NastyWoman]

Nov 18, 2019 15:38:40 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 18, 2019 14:31:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

and now we know why you should never tell your boss too early that you intend to retire. If you do you assume that they are going to treat you fairly, but that is not always the case: it is better to keep in mind that the only one that will look out for your best interest is you. If I worked at this place and caught wind of what they were doing to this person, they would get exactly one day notice from me when I would be ready to retire. 

Taking another job would be different since you might need them for future reference, but retiring...

I have seen a dozen cases of people trying to be "nice" by informing their bosses ahead of time that they will leave the company in x number of months. I think every one of those people got screwed. I'm kinda pissed at the guy who told corporate. There was no gain there for him either. He just can't keep his mouth shut. I think he expected them to throw flowers at his feet for announcing that he wasn't planning on replacing the person. He could have waited and gotten the flowers next year, when it actually happened.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why employees give 2 weeks notice. Companies don't care.

I am the only one in my company of 6000+ employees that does the work I do.  And in general I have been treated quite well. I plan to retire sometime within the next two years and my original plan was to give 2 months notice. Well, they started to tick me off (different "they"s) so I put a sticky note on my wall and each time I was really, really PO's I took a day off the 2 months warning. Now we are at the point that I might tell them at 5pm that today was my last day or if we have hit a period of relative peace I might give them a few weeks to figure out what to do. It's up to them even though they have not been informed of that fact

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 15:44:16 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Nov 18, 2019 15:38:40 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have seen a dozen cases of people trying to be "nice" by informing their bosses ahead of time that they will leave the company in x number of months. I think every one of those people got screwed. I'm kinda pissed at the guy who told corporate. There was no gain there for him either. He just can't keep his mouth shut. I think he expected them to throw flowers at his feet for announcing that he wasn't planning on replacing the person. He could have waited and gotten the flowers next year, when it actually happened.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why employees give 2 weeks notice. Companies don't care.

I am the only one in my company of 6000+ employees that does the work I do.  And in general I have been treated quite well. I plan to retire sometime within the next two years and my original plan was to give 2 months notice. Well, they started to tick me off (different "they"s) so I put a sticky note on my wall and each time I was really, really PO's I took a day off the 2 months warning. Now we are at the point that I might tell them at 5pm that today was my last day or if we have hit a period of relative peace I might give them a few weeks to figure out what to do. It's up to them even though they have not been informed of that fact

It will be inconvenient, but the company won't crumble. I have also watched people at all levels of the organization disappear quickly (illness, laid off or quit) and every company seems to move forward without their wisdom and labor.

[NastyWoman]

Nov 18, 2019 15:46:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 18, 2019 15:44:16 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am the only one in my company of 6000+ employees that does the work I do.  And in general I have been treated quite well. I plan to retire sometime within the next two years and my original plan was to give 2 months notice. Well, they started to tick me off (different "they"s) so I put a sticky note on my wall and each time I was really, really PO's I took a day off the 2 months warning. Now we are at the point that I might tell them at 5pm that today was my last day or if we have hit a period of relative peace I might give them a few weeks to figure out what to do. It's up to them even though they have not been informed of that fact

It will be inconvenient, but the company won't crumble. I have also watched people at all levels of the organization disappear quickly (illness, laid off or quit) and every company seems to move forward without their wisdom and labor.

I am 100% sure they won't - if I thought they would I would not be so cavalier about it. Still it will take quite a lot of time to fix without input. This company has mostly government contracts but still several $B in commercial and knowing the people is as important as knowing the contract.  Handover is relatively easy, but without handover you need to figure out who to ask and with all our turnover that is much, much harder

[Miss Tequila]

Nov 18, 2019 15:46:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 18, 2019 15:44:16 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am the only one in my company of 6000+ employees that does the work I do.  And in general I have been treated quite well. I plan to retire sometime within the next two years and my original plan was to give 2 months notice. Well, they started to tick me off (different "they"s) so I put a sticky note on my wall and each time I was really, really PO's I took a day off the 2 months warning. Now we are at the point that I might tell them at 5pm that today was my last day or if we have hit a period of relative peace I might give them a few weeks to figure out what to do. It's up to them even though they have not been informed of that fact

It will be inconvenient, but the company won't crumble. I have also watched people at all levels of the organization disappear quickly (illness, laid off or quit) and every company seems to move forward without their wisdom and labor.

I've learned over the  years that everyone is replaceable.  it is painful for awhile but eventually the person who was "indispensable" is forgotten.  

[Rukh O'Rorke]

2 weeks is professional norms, so if you skip it, you could get labeled unprofessional and it could follow you. Never give more because it can and usually does bite you.

oldcompany lost my biggest client when I left, they didn't hire in at my level and paid the price - so damage can occur. But - when companies are shitty or act stupid like individual employees don't matter/bring value - they run that risk. Not saying oldcompany was shitty, they were just a bit clueless and not focused on our division as we were such a small percentage of their revenue.

In thyme's case - everyone will know if you give a lot of notice, this company will screw you. Thyme knows it, and will act accordingly when she plans to leave. Others may find out that if you give the company the courtesy of this info - it will cost you money. 

Good for you Thyme for trying to make things right. 

[tskeeter]

Nov 18, 2019 16:12:25 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

2 weeks is professional norms, so if you skip it, you could get labeled unprofessional and it could follow you. Never give more because it can and usually does bite you.

oldcompany lost my biggest client when I left, they didn't hire in at my level and paid the price - so damage can occur. But - when companies are shitty or act stupid like individual employees don't matter/bring value - they run that risk. Not saying oldcompany was shitty, they were just a bit clueless and not focused on our division as we were such a small percentage of their revenue.

In thyme's case - everyone will know if you give a lot of notice, this company will screw you. Thyme knows it, and will act accordingly when she plans to leave. Others may find out that if you give the company the courtesy of this info - it will cost you money. 

Good for you Thyme for trying to make things right. 

The idea of two weeks notice is promoted by employers because it makes their life more convenient.  How many employers kick people to the curb without the courtesy of two weeks notice?

And yes, if you give more than minimal notice, you can expect that someone in the company will think it’s a great idea to save a few bucks and shortchange you on merit increases, bonuses, and the like.  Few companies of any size demonstrate the class to resist the opportunity to save a couple of bucks at the expense to a soon to be former employee.

Ironic that HR departments spend tens of thousands of dollars conducting employee engagement surveys and developing and implementing programs to improve employee engagement.  Then they shoot themselves in the foot by screwing a departing employee.  When will the C Suite folks figure out that loyalty is not a one way street?

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2019 16:12:25 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

2 weeks is professional norms, so if you skip it, you could get labeled unprofessional and it could follow you.

But if you're quitting to retire, who cares?

I kind of like the idea of just saying, "You know what?  Not today." and walking out when someone pisses me off.   But, the reality is, here the norm is letting everyone know waaaaay ahead of time your retirement intentions.  I gave my notice a few years ago already. 

[thyme4change]

Even if you are not retiring, you can judge the situation. If I came in in a Tuesday and announced Friday would be my last day, HR wouldn't divulge that in future employment checks, and anyone who worked with me would talk about who I was during my 10 year stint. If they wanted to bash me, giving short notice wouldn't be the best place to do so. My field is broad, so I rarely run into the same person twice. The network isn't tight enough that it would get around that after years and years of success at company A, she didn't give two weeks notice.

Also, as an employer, that wouldn't change my mind. The right person is hard to find. But they can only quit once. Maybe I will get 3 or 5 great years, and have a few weeks of pain. Worth it. I've worked with enough people that had sudden departures and we got through it.

[hoops902]

Nov 19, 2019 9:58:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Even if you are not retiring, you can judge the situation. If I came in in a Tuesday and announced Friday would be my last day, HR wouldn't divulge that in future employment checks, and anyone who worked with me would talk about who I was during my 10 year stint. If they wanted to bash me, giving short notice wouldn't be the best place to do so. My field is broad, so I rarely run into the same person twice. The network isn't tight enough that it would get around that after years and years of success at company A, she didn't give two weeks notice.

Also, as an employer, that wouldn't change my mind. The right person is hard to find. But they can only quit once. Maybe I will get 3 or 5 great years, and have a few weeks of pain. Worth it. I've worked with enough people that had sudden departures and we got through it.

Actually, that's the problem, they wouldn't divulge it in future employment checks.  And future employers know that past employers are scared to divulge anything useful, so instead they ask generic questions like "Are they eligible for rehire?" to which the answer if giving less than 2 weeks might be "No".  So now they've indicated you aren't eligible for rehire, but probably won't say anything else...so your potential future employer now doesn't know if the reason is giving less than 2 weeks, stealing from the company, or a big HR violation.  

That's the risk, that you're going to end up with a generic "we wouldn't take them back" which could mean anything (and the reason for not being eligible for rehire in this case would be super minor, but the future potential employer doesn't know that).  

You'd be a lot better off if they DID divulge that kind of info.  If the biggest problem I had at a company was not giving 2 weeks notice...I'd rather they told potential future employers about that rather than giving me a super generic negative that poses itself as a potential risk for a future employer given the former employer won't divulge the details.

[thyme4change]

Nov 19, 2019 10:07:25 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Nov 19, 2019 9:58:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Even if you are not retiring, you can judge the situation. If I came in in a Tuesday and announced Friday would be my last day, HR wouldn't divulge that in future employment checks, and anyone who worked with me would talk about who I was during my 10 year stint. If they wanted to bash me, giving short notice wouldn't be the best place to do so. My field is broad, so I rarely run into the same person twice. The network isn't tight enough that it would get around that after years and years of success at company A, she didn't give two weeks notice.

Also, as an employer, that wouldn't change my mind. The right person is hard to find. But they can only quit once. Maybe I will get 3 or 5 great years, and have a few weeks of pain. Worth it. I've worked with enough people that had sudden departures and we got through it.

Actually, that's the problem, they wouldn't divulge it in future employment checks.  And future employers know that past employers are scared to divulge anything useful, so instead they ask generic questions like "Are they eligible for rehire?" to which the answer if giving less than 2 weeks might be "No".  So now they've indicated you aren't eligible for rehire, but probably won't say anything else...so your potential future employer now doesn't know if the reason is giving less than 2 weeks, stealing from the company, or a big HR violation.  

That's the risk, that you're going to end up with a generic "we wouldn't take them back" which could mean anything (and the reason for not being eligible for rehire in this case would be super minor, but the future potential employer doesn't know that).  

You'd be a lot better off if they DID divulge that kind of info.  If the biggest problem I had at a company was not giving 2 weeks notice...I'd rather they told potential future employers about that rather than giving me a super generic negative that poses itself as a potential risk for a future employer given the former employer won't divulge the details.

Every company I have asked if the employee was eligible for rehire, their answer was that they do not divulge that info. I have never gotten anything other than employment dates and title. Maybe salary.

[thyme4change]

Nov 18, 2019 15:52:14 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Nov 18, 2019 15:46:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

It will be inconvenient, but the company won't crumble. I have also watched people at all levels of the organization disappear quickly (illness, laid off or quit) and every company seems to move forward without their wisdom and labor.

I am 100% sure they won't - if I thought they would I would not be so cavalier about it. Still it will take quite a lot of time to fix without input. This company has mostly government contracts but still several $B in commercial and knowing the people is as important as knowing the contract.  Handover is relatively easy, but without handover you need to figure out who to ask and with all our turnover that is much, much harder

Leave a list of situations, names and contact info on your desk.

[NastyWoman]

Nov 19, 2019 11:47:47 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 18, 2019 15:52:14 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am 100% sure they won't - if I thought they would I would not be so cavalier about it. Still it will take quite a lot of time to fix without input. This company has mostly government contracts but still several $B in commercial and knowing the people is as important as knowing the contract.  Handover is relatively easy, but without handover you need to figure out who to ask and with all our turnover that is much, much harder

Leave a list of situations, names and contact info on your desk.

Oh, under normal circumstances I will and I will hand everything over but if they really, really tick me off... not a chance