NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2019 8:25:03 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is the boomer generation is so large. My parents were born in 56 and 59, they have very little in common with someone born in 1946.
I have the same problem. If you consider me to be a Gen X-er I am lumped with DH who is ten years older than me. If I am a Millenial I am lumped with my brother who is six years younger than me. The world changed A LOT in those time spans. For example DH did not use a computer till college, my brother has never known a time without computers, I straddle both worlds.
There are things DH can do by hand because the technology did not exist. That doesn't mean he is somehow smarter than me or my brother. What it is means is that technology rendered it obsolete by the time we came along.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Nov 13, 2019 9:45:09 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is the boomer generation is so large. My parents were born in 56 and 59, they have very little in common with someone born in 1946. I have the same problem. If you consider me to be a Gen X-er I am lumped with DH who is ten years older than me. If I am a Millenial I am lumped with my brother who is six years younger than me. The world changed A LOT in those time spans. For example DH did not use a computer till college, my brother has never known a time without computers, I straddle both worlds. There are things DH can do by hand because the technology did not exist. That doesn't mean he is somehow smarter than me or my brother. What it is means is that technology rendered it obsolete by the time we came along. This is me as well - I'm born in 1985 with parents who are "boomers" but born in the early-mid 50s. I have more in common with DH, who was born in 1979, than I do with someone born in 1991.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Nov 13, 2019 11:15:50 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is the boomer generation is so large. My parents were born in 56 and 59, they have very little in common with someone born in 1946. I have the same problem. If you consider me to be a Gen X-er I am lumped with DH who is ten years older than me. If I am a Millenial I am lumped with my brother who is six years younger than me. The world changed A LOT in those time spans. For example DH did not use a computer till college, my brother has never known a time without computers, I straddle both worlds. There are things DH can do by hand because the technology did not exist. That doesn't mean he is somehow smarter than me or my brother. What it is means is that technology rendered it obsolete by the time we came along. As someone born in 82 I swear at one point I was one of the youngest Gen X'ers then it changed and I was one of the oldest millennials. Regardless I have far less in common with my niece who was born in the mid 90's than I do people who are 10 years older than me. She doesn't remember a time without home computers, the internet and she's had a cell phone most of her life. Some years back we did a generations in the workplace workshop and the speaker mentioned that with how fast technology changes and how much it changes our lives about every 7 years you could break the generations up. That was probably more so her opinion but considering what I've seen in my lifetime I don't disagree. Like you I straddle both worlds and I'm glad I can say that.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 13, 2019 11:28:20 GMT -5
Different people separate the generations into different years, but I'm smack in the middle of X, so I'm always placed there. I feel a lot more kin-ship with the older end of millenials than I do with any of the boomers. Growing up, it often felt like we just missed the party. We did catch the beginning of the next party with computers coming around. I did grow up with computers, thought they were nothing like they are these days! Todays technology is the stuff that came out of our imaginations as we were playing as kids.
The big difference I see is how much higher education has increased in price. Had I not gone back relatively recently, I wouldn't have realized how insane it has gotten. Sure, there are scholarships, and gaming where you go, but why does it have to be so complicated? Same with healthcare--things have gotten so complicated. Even credit and money management has gotten more complicated. No wonder people nowadays just throw their hands in the air and give up when trying to navigate these things. Face it, back in the "olden days" things were simpler to understand.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Nov 13, 2019 12:53:51 GMT -5
Face it, back in the "olden days" things were simpler to understand. I think the basics are still understandable... it's the medium of presentation that keeps changing every 3 to 5 years that adds in a layer of difficulty. I sometimes have a heck of a time with my smart phone cause I can never figure out if I'm suppose to swipe left/right or up/down to see more info about what the screen is showing me. There's a work app that makes me want to kill someone that comes to mind- it has a screen that asks for a user id and password. (we all know how this works - you enter both and then hit enter or tab or some other thing to indicate you are done entering. I couldn't figure out how to get the damn thing to do something after I entered in my user id/password. There was NO CLUE on the screen that there was more screen - down below. you have to swipe up to get to the "DONE" button so you can complete the log in. Heck there might even be more left and right - I'll have to swipe left/right next time I'm logging in. I just hate playing "20 questions" and I Hate trial and error for something that should be easy/common. I hate when I get presented with a screen and it assumes I'm gonna play around to find the correct "path" - just SHOW ME where the fucking path is and I'll happily go down it don't make me randomly thrash around to find it. I'm beginning to assume that 80% of the time people spend on their phone is playing/thrashing around trying to find the 'path' so they can accomplish what ever it is they want to do.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 13, 2019 12:59:27 GMT -5
Face it, back in the "olden days" things were simpler to understand. I think the basics are still understandable... it's the medium of presentation that keeps changing every 3 to 5 years that adds in a layer of difficulty. I sometimes have a heck of a time with my smart phone cause I can never figure out if I'm suppose to swipe left/right or up/down to see more info about what the screen is showing me. There's a work app that makes me want to kill someone that comes to mind- it has a screen that asks for a user id and password. (we all know how this works - you enter both and then hit enter or tab or some other thing to indicate you are done entering. I couldn't figure out how to get the damn thing to do something after I entered in my user id/password. There was NO CLUE on the screen that there was more screen - down below. you have to swipe up to get to the "DONE" button so you can complete the log in. Heck there might even be more left and right - I'll have to swipe left/right next time I'm logging in. I just hate playing "20 questions" and I Hate trial and error for something that should be easy/common. I hate when I get presented with a screen and it assumes I'm gonna play around to find the correct "path" - just SHOW ME where the fucking path is and I'll happily go down it don't make me randomly thrash around to find it. I'm beginning to assume that 80% of people time on their phone is playing around trying to find the 'path' so they can accomplish what ever it is they want to do. I agree the basics are still understandable, but I also think that for many looking at it...it just looks too complex to ever understand and so they just opt-out of even trying. As things become more "do it yourself" they get potentially much more complex. Let's be honest, lots of people who went to a financial adviser in years past just said "what should I invest in?"..someone told them, and they did. Now you go online, set up an account, and just stare at the screen without knowing what to do. If you were a basic uneducated investor in years past, you probably had no idea about options or other derivative instruments...you just bought GM stock (or something similar). You weren't watching people get rich with Blockchain and not understanding how. You understood the basics, but about all that was presented to you was the basics. Today we're presenting EVERYTHING to you, which probably seems overwhelming even if you still have the option to just take the basics and learn it (and the added issue of someone deciphering which stuff IS the basics and which stuff is not).
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 13, 2019 14:20:33 GMT -5
There are many more options for investing, for example. Plus, so few jobs offering pensions, that people pretty much have to be investors these days, even if they have no aptitude for it. Used to be they could graduate high school, fall into some decent job with a pension, and retire after 40 years, or whatever. Now kids are supposed to plan their life from high school, carefully choosing the right school/major/way to pay for all of it (usually some debt), and then hope they get a good enough job to pay for it afterwards. Plus, no pensions, so they have to figure out how to invest for retirement. It works out fine for those with the discipline and talent for it, but it's not nearly as simple and easy as falling into a decent job like the option the boomers had.
I work with a lady that did just that--fell into this job right after high school. Eligible for her pension at 54 after 35 years, though the healthcare component is keeping her working.
As far as healthcare is concerned--it used to be possible to pay out of pocket. I shouldn't have, but went without insurance for a couple years in my 20's. An office visit was $35. Trust me, the cpi hasn't gone up enough to account for the much increased cost of an office visit today.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Nov 14, 2019 0:20:55 GMT -5
I think the basics are still understandable... it's the medium of presentation that keeps changing every 3 to 5 years that adds in a layer of difficulty. I sometimes have a heck of a time with my smart phone cause I can never figure out if I'm suppose to swipe left/right or up/down to see more info about what the screen is showing me. There's a work app that makes me want to kill someone that comes to mind- it has a screen that asks for a user id and password. (we all know how this works - you enter both and then hit enter or tab or some other thing to indicate you are done entering. I couldn't figure out how to get the damn thing to do something after I entered in my user id/password. There was NO CLUE on the screen that there was more screen - down below. you have to swipe up to get to the "DONE" button so you can complete the log in. Heck there might even be more left and right - I'll have to swipe left/right next time I'm logging in. I just hate playing "20 questions" and I Hate trial and error for something that should be easy/common. I hate when I get presented with a screen and it assumes I'm gonna play around to find the correct "path" - just SHOW ME where the fucking path is and I'll happily go down it don't make me randomly thrash around to find it. I'm beginning to assume that 80% of people time on their phone is playing around trying to find the 'path' so they can accomplish what ever it is they want to do. I agree the basics are still understandable, but I also think that for many looking at it...it just looks too complex to ever understand and so they just opt-out of even trying. As things become more "do it yourself" they get potentially much more complex. Let's be honest, lots of people who went to a financial adviser in years past just said "what should I invest in?"..someone told them, and they did. Now you go online, set up an account, and just stare at the screen without knowing what to do. If you were a basic uneducated investor in years past, you probably had no idea about options or other derivative instruments...you just bought GM stock (or something similar). You weren't watching people get rich with Blockchain and not understanding how. You understood the basics, but about all that was presented to you was the basics. Today we're presenting EVERYTHING to you, which probably seems overwhelming even if you still have the option to just take the basics and learn it (and the added issue of someone deciphering which stuff IS the basics and which stuff is not). Hoops, you have a good point regarding software that allows you to do it yourself. In my experience, these tools are great for the folks that use them all the time. If you are an infrequent user, what a PITA. My favorite is systems for business travelers to make travel arrangements. Limited, if any, training. Limited, if any, written instructions. Only takes the infrequent user about six hours to get a plane ticket from LA to Chicago. Yeah, that’s a real time saver.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 14, 2019 17:26:00 GMT -5
Yay! Boomer bashing! There's never enough of that! We love hearing about how worthless we are. Please feel free to hate me because of the date of my birth since, of course, it was all my fault for choosing to be born then. I'm starting to not take it seriously anymore. Most of the Boomer bashers can't even tell who are and are not Boomers. I really hate generation shit because its divisive and generally inaccurate.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 14, 2019 17:38:48 GMT -5
"Back in my day" is as old as your grandparents or great-grandparents. If I had said, "Ok boomer" or its equivalent (it is telling that there is no equivalent), I would have been slapped upside the head or something like that (my grandparents didn't slap but they would have been angry!) It is rude and disrespectful in a way that "back in my day" could never be. If you don't get that, I cannot explain. Say,Grammy, times have changed. " Don't say, "Ok boomer." I don't know...millenials have been called lazy entitled whiners for more than 10 years with no sights on letting up. Sometimes you have to give up on being polite and talk to people the way they talk to you which I think is where the "ok boomer" sentiment is coming from. Some people call Millenials that, but many do not. I do not focus on the generations like many here seem to, except when someone goes off and whines about Boomers about one person's comment who isn't even a Boomer AND didn't even single out Millenials. Much of the crap was generated by those folks who write about generational nonsense in hopes of shaping and defining marketing. Here's a thought. Stop feeding into the generational nonsense and just be you. I have commonalities with many people of various ages and I from the very end of the Boomer generation feel those on the beginning of the Millenial generation have gone through similar shit as I have simply because of timing. Because of when certain recessions fell, among other things. I try to look at people like I do cars. A car is cool because its cool. Not because of when it was made, but because of its inherent coolness.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 14, 2019 17:47:46 GMT -5
Apathetic, not lazy. We're emotionally scarred by being raised by boomers. With good reason. I was raised by the silent generation. I have been instilled with feeling like no one gives a shit about me because I'm not a boomer. I was raised by the silent generation. I was taught to keep my head down because of what happened in my parent's lives.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 14, 2019 17:59:26 GMT -5
My ex says "Ok Boomer" and he was born in 1963. I'm born in 1960, and plan to never say it. I must have been very lucky with my parents. The only back in my day stuff I had to listen to was true and also tongue in cheek.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 14, 2019 20:42:29 GMT -5
I don't know...millenials have been called lazy entitled whiners for more than 10 years with no sights on letting up. Sometimes you have to give up on being polite and talk to people the way they talk to you which I think is where the "ok boomer" sentiment is coming from. Some people call Millenials that, but many do not. I do not focus on the generations like many here seem to, except when someone goes off and whines about Boomers about one person's comment who isn't even a Boomer AND didn't even single out Millenials. Much of the crap was generated by those folks who write about generational nonsense in hopes of shaping and defining marketing. Here's a thought. Stop feeding into the generational nonsense and just be you. I have commonalities with many people of various ages and I from the very end of the Boomer generation feel those on the beginning of the Millenial generation have gone through similar shit as I have simply because of timing. Because of when certain recessions fell, among other things. I try to look at people like I do cars. A car is cool because its cool. Not because of when it was made, but because of its inherent coolness. I agree. I've known plenty of boomers who were lazy, good for nothing people, and plenty who worked hard and accomplished a lot. It so happens that all the millenials I know are very smart, hardworking and successful, so I have a warped view of them. I'm sure there are plenty of them who are wasting oxygen every minute of the day.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Nov 14, 2019 20:51:00 GMT -5
I agree too, but I still think there is more millenial bashing than boomer bashing and the uproar over a 2 word retort seems so very out of place and over dramatic.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 13:58:43 GMT -5
I agree too, but I still think there is more millenial bashing than boomer bashing and the uproar over a 2 word retort seems so very out of place and over dramatic. I honestly have not seen an uproar over it, though. I never even heard the expression until a week or so ago. I've seen it in comments on the internet, but it comes across as "I have no intelligent reply so I am going to try to be dismissive". It doesn't have any real bite, IMO.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 14:05:46 GMT -5
Some people call Millenials that, but many do not. I do not focus on the generations like many here seem to, except when someone goes off and whines about Boomers about one person's comment who isn't even a Boomer AND didn't even single out Millenials. Much of the crap was generated by those folks who write about generational nonsense in hopes of shaping and defining marketing. Here's a thought. Stop feeding into the generational nonsense and just be you. I have commonalities with many people of various ages and I from the very end of the Boomer generation feel those on the beginning of the Millenial generation have gone through similar shit as I have simply because of timing. Because of when certain recessions fell, among other things. I try to look at people like I do cars. A car is cool because its cool. Not because of when it was made, but because of its inherent coolness. I agree. I've known plenty of boomers who were lazy, good for nothing people, and plenty who worked hard and accomplished a lot. It so happens that all the millenials I know are very smart, hardworking and successful, so I have a warped view of them. I'm sure there are plenty of them who are wasting oxygen every minute of the day. There are good and bad in every generation. It does seem, though, that the millennials are looking for a lot of free stuff. The boomers didn't ask for taxpayers to pay for their college. Gen-x didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for their college. The millennials have latched onto socialism like no one's business. It is hard not to think of that generation as entitled...entitled to taxpayers money! On the flip side, I have worked with some millennials who are extremely bright and hard working. But these are not millennials embracing socialism as they have busted their ass to climb the corporate ladder.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:15:52 GMT -5
I agree. I've known plenty of boomers who were lazy, good for nothing people, and plenty who worked hard and accomplished a lot. It so happens that all the millenials I know are very smart, hardworking and successful, so I have a warped view of them. I'm sure there are plenty of them who are wasting oxygen every minute of the day. There are good and bad in every generation. It does seem, though, that the millennials are looking for a lot of free stuff. The boomers didn't ask for taxpayers to pay for their college. Gen-x didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for their college. The millennials have latched onto socialism like no one's business. It is hard not to think of that generation as entitled...entitled to taxpayers money! On the flip side, I have worked with some millennials who are extremely bright and hard working. But these are not millennials embracing socialism as they have busted their ass to climb the corporate ladder. Millenials and Zoomers are having to pay a shit ton more for college than the Gen X'ers and definitely way more than the Boomers did. Not to mention, in Boomer time you could get a good job right out of high school without college much, much easier than you can now. For comparison. I paid $38/credit for tuition in 1987, and was making $6/hour. I paid as I went. I even bought a house while in college. If my son were to go to the same school right now it's $292/credit! He's making $11/hour working at the exact same place as I was in 87 for $6/hour. Nearly 8X the tuition and not even twice the wage. There's no way in hell he could pay as he went like I did.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 15, 2019 14:23:03 GMT -5
There are good and bad in every generation. It does seem, though, that the millennials are looking for a lot of free stuff. The boomers didn't ask for taxpayers to pay for their college. Gen-x didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for their college. The millennials have latched onto socialism like no one's business. It is hard not to think of that generation as entitled...entitled to taxpayers money! On the flip side, I have worked with some millennials who are extremely bright and hard working. But these are not millennials embracing socialism as they have busted their ass to climb the corporate ladder. Millenials and Zoomers are having to pay a shit ton more for college than the Gen X'ers and definitely way more than the Boomers did. Not to mention, in Boomer time you could get a good job right out of high school without college much, much easier than you can now. For comparison. I paid $38/credit for tuition in 1987, and was making $6/hour. I paid as I went. I even bought a house while in college. If my son were to go to the same school right now it's $292/credit! He's making $11/hour working at the exact same place as I was in 87 for $6/hour. Nearly 8X the tuition and not even twice the wage. There's no way in hell he could pay as he went like I did.
I don't think taxpayers should pay for college. That said, it makes a lot more sense for people to want that when college is now FAR less affordable than it was back then, and also far more necessary to get a job in the current economy than it's ever been. Ignoring that I STILL don't think taxpayers should be forking over money for college, I think the argument is much stronger today when you take an 18 year old with no money who "needs" college and has no viable way to pay for it in the moment (I would say loans are not paying for it in the moment). But let's also not forget, boomers, and the elderly/older folks in general, ask for taxpayers to pay for LOTS of things for them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:24:05 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard to understand that the education and healthcare issues the younger generations face aren't way different now than they were even 30 years ago.
Right now the Boomers have all the power and wealth in this country, so you have a lot of frustrated younger people out there, but it's going to start to change. It's going to be interesting. From the shift of power in the political offices to the glut of housing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:29:31 GMT -5
Millenials and Zoomers are having to pay a shit ton more for college than the Gen X'ers and definitely way more than the Boomers did. Not to mention, in Boomer time you could get a good job right out of high school without college much, much easier than you can now. For comparison. I paid $38/credit for tuition in 1987, and was making $6/hour. I paid as I went. I even bought a house while in college. If my son were to go to the same school right now it's $292/credit! He's making $11/hour working at the exact same place as I was in 87 for $6/hour. Nearly 8X the tuition and not even twice the wage. There's no way in hell he could pay as he went like I did.
I don't think taxpayers should pay for college. That said, it makes a lot more sense for people to want that when college is now FAR less affordable than it was back then, and also far more necessary to get a job in the current economy than it's ever been. Ignoring that I STILL don't think taxpayers should be forking over money for college, I think the argument is much stronger today when you take an 18 year old with no money who "needs" college and has no viable way to pay for it in the moment (I would say loans are not paying for it in the moment). But let's also not forget, boomers, and the elderly/older folks in general, ask for taxpayers to pay for LOTS of things for them. I don't either. I completely blame the easy availability of loans and the pushing every kid towards college as a lot of what's behind the increase in costs. Colleges can charge whatever and people keep paying it and the government lets them borrow as much as possible. There is literally NO LIMIT on parent plus loan amounts. I got offered 35K/year in "Financial aid" in the form of a Parent Plus loan for one school for my son. I make 45K. WTH kind of messed up borrowing practices are behind that being ok? The only credit check is that you have nothing like a bankruptcy or foreclosure. They don't care what your income is or your credit score for that matter.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 14:35:43 GMT -5
There are good and bad in every generation. It does seem, though, that the millennials are looking for a lot of free stuff. The boomers didn't ask for taxpayers to pay for their college. Gen-x didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for their college. The millennials have latched onto socialism like no one's business. It is hard not to think of that generation as entitled...entitled to taxpayers money! On the flip side, I have worked with some millennials who are extremely bright and hard working. But these are not millennials embracing socialism as they have busted their ass to climb the corporate ladder. Millenials and Zoomers are having to pay a shit ton more for college than the Gen X'ers and definitely way more than the Boomers did. Not to mention, in Boomer time you could get a good job right out of high school without college much, much easier than you can now. For comparison. I paid $38/credit for tuition in 1987, and was making $6/hour. I paid as I went. I even bought a house while in college. If my son were to go to the same school right now it's $292/credit! He's making $11/hour working at the exact same place as I was in 87 for $6/hour. Nearly 8X the tuition and not even twice the wage. There's no way in hell he could pay as he went like I did.
We've had this discussion before. The tuition at my school the year I graduated (1995) was $15k. My daughter went to that school in 2017 and the tuition was $34k. That is roughly 3.8% annual inflation. That is not unreasonable. I just looked at the tuition of my local community college (I went there for 2 years). Tuition for a an in county student is $4,200 a year. The issue isn't the cost of school. The issue is that young students are making horrendous choices when selecting a school. I went to community college for two years and banged out 60 credits and then transferred. Instead of holding people accountable for their bad financial decisions, everyone cries to make it free. If we stop giving everyone loans for schools they can't afford, that would solve the issue.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 15, 2019 14:36:00 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard to understand that the education and healthcare issues the younger generations face aren't way different now than they were even 30 years ago.
Right now the Boomers have all the power and wealth in this country, so you have a lot of frustrated younger people out there, but it's going to start to change. It's going to be interesting. From the shift of power in the political offices to the glut of housing.
A lot of what I see seems to be this...and boiled down to essentially: Yes, when you were our age, things were affordable, and as soon as you got the power you took those things and made them ridiculously unaffordable because you already had them and didn't need them anymore. Throw into that the idea that those same people in charge have taken HUGE steps to ruin the planet (I don't want to debate that here, so I'm leaving it as the "idea" that they have, because many millenials certainly feel they have). I think the 2 sides of the coin are really "you're entitled work for it" vs "I just want you to leave things the way you found them". I doubt you'd be seeing a lot of the entitled attitudes (which I agree there are) if millenials were facing the same cheap college, cheap housing, and environmental situation that the boomers walked into at the same age.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 14:38:24 GMT -5
I don't think taxpayers should pay for college. That said, it makes a lot more sense for people to want that when college is now FAR less affordable than it was back then, and also far more necessary to get a job in the current economy than it's ever been. Ignoring that I STILL don't think taxpayers should be forking over money for college, I think the argument is much stronger today when you take an 18 year old with no money who "needs" college and has no viable way to pay for it in the moment (I would say loans are not paying for it in the moment). But let's also not forget, boomers, and the elderly/older folks in general, ask for taxpayers to pay for LOTS of things for them. I don't either. I completely blame the easy availability of loans and the pushing every kid towards college as a lot of what's behind the increase in costs. Colleges can charge whatever and people keep paying it and the government lets them borrow as much as possible. There is literally NO LIMIT on parent plus loan amounts. I got offered 35K/year in "Financial aid" in the form of a Parent Plus loan for one school for my son. I make 45K. WTH kind of messed up borrowing practices are behind that being ok? The only credit check is that you have nothing like a bankruptcy or foreclosure. They don't care what your income is or your credit score for that matter. I agree completely. I also think we should stop frowning at trades people. I have rentals and know what I pay my plumbers, HVAC and contractors. I have no idea why parents aren't encouraging kids to go into those fields, other than people think they can brag about Johnny going to college and having an office job versus Jimmy who comes home dirty. Except Johnny is saddled with $50k in student loan debt while making a $45k salary, while Jimmy is bringing home $75k with no debt.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:48:28 GMT -5
Millenials and Zoomers are having to pay a shit ton more for college than the Gen X'ers and definitely way more than the Boomers did. Not to mention, in Boomer time you could get a good job right out of high school without college much, much easier than you can now. For comparison. I paid $38/credit for tuition in 1987, and was making $6/hour. I paid as I went. I even bought a house while in college. If my son were to go to the same school right now it's $292/credit! He's making $11/hour working at the exact same place as I was in 87 for $6/hour. Nearly 8X the tuition and not even twice the wage. There's no way in hell he could pay as he went like I did.
We've had this discussion before. The tuition at my school the year I graduated (1995) was $15k. My daughter went to that school in 2017 and the tuition was $34k. That is roughly 3.8% annual inflation. That is not unreasonable. I just looked at the tuition of my local community college (I went there for 2 years). Tuition for a an in county student is $4,200 a year. The issue isn't the cost of school. The issue is that young students are making horrendous choices when selecting a school. I went to community college for two years and banged out 60 credits and then transferred. Instead of holding people accountable for their bad financial decisions, everyone cries to make it free. If we stop giving everyone loans for schools they can't afford, that would solve the issue. Then you went to a very expensive school back then. I thought maybe I was off and checked the historical charts for Minnesota colleges and I was right. $1600/year tuition in 1987.
But, it's not just the tuition. The FEES have increased so much. They're $42/credit now...more than I even paid for tuition in 87.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 15:00:15 GMT -5
We've had this discussion before. The tuition at my school the year I graduated (1995) was $15k. My daughter went to that school in 2017 and the tuition was $34k. That is roughly 3.8% annual inflation. That is not unreasonable. I just looked at the tuition of my local community college (I went there for 2 years). Tuition for a an in county student is $4,200 a year. The issue isn't the cost of school. The issue is that young students are making horrendous choices when selecting a school. I went to community college for two years and banged out 60 credits and then transferred. Instead of holding people accountable for their bad financial decisions, everyone cries to make it free. If we stop giving everyone loans for schools they can't afford, that would solve the issue. Then you went to a very expensive school back then. I thought maybe I was off and checked the historical charts for Minnesota colleges and I was right. $1600/year tuition in 1987.
But, it's not just the tuition. The FEES have increased so much. They're $42/credit now...more than I even paid for tuition in 87.
I didn't go to a state school. I just checked and her tuition in 2017 was only $31k. She switched schools in 2018 and the tuition at that school was $34k. She got zero grants but the school gave her very good scholarships so that it was actually a lot less for her to go there than to our state school. The tuition for our PA state schools is extremely reasonable. Problem is, you don't get bragging rights when you go to a state school. Parents are willing to take on all kinds of debt to send their kids to schools that are $30k-$40k (or more!) instead of insisting on a state school. Or a community college and then a state school. Sorry, I have zero sympathy for idiotic choices. www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/07/11/pennsylvania-system-freezes-tuition-second-time-36-years - details the in-state tution
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 15, 2019 15:02:44 GMT -5
I don't either. I completely blame the easy availability of loans and the pushing every kid towards college as a lot of what's behind the increase in costs. Colleges can charge whatever and people keep paying it and the government lets them borrow as much as possible. There is literally NO LIMIT on parent plus loan amounts. I got offered 35K/year in "Financial aid" in the form of a Parent Plus loan for one school for my son. I make 45K. WTH kind of messed up borrowing practices are behind that being ok? The only credit check is that you have nothing like a bankruptcy or foreclosure. They don't care what your income is or your credit score for that matter. I agree completely. I also think we should stop frowning at trades people. I have rentals and know what I pay my plumbers, HVAC and contractors. I have no idea why parents aren't encouraging kids to go into those fields, other than people think they can brag about Johnny going to college and having an office job versus Jimmy who comes home dirty. Except Johnny is saddled with $50k in student loan debt while making a $45k salary, while Jimmy is bringing home $75k with no debt. From the tradespeople I know (I know quite a few) they don't encourage their kids to go into the trades primarily because "it's a hard life". It can be pretty physically taxing, I know there are lots of suggestions on here about "well start a business"...but not everyone can be a business owner with employees under them, the numbers don't pan out. People on here/people who support more trades are also highly optimistic about what the average tradespeople make (at least as it compares to what the average professional makes in other areas). I can't tell you how many tradespeople I know who now work big box retail because their bodies broke down doing it. My plumber (who also happens to be my HS gf's father, which is to say he's known me for a very long time) put it to me this way (I'm not saying it's true, but it's his 40 year perspective). He knows I'm into renovation, and he was saying I could have made a ton of money in the trades because I'd be running a house-building company or something. His point of view is that decades ago you had 2 kinds of people going into the trades, and people pretty much knew which type they were going in. 1. People not inclined towards formal education who would work the trade job till their body broke down. 2. Type A smart kids who just had a lot of interest in the area and would be the eventual business owners. Today he says it's pretty much only the Type 1s he sees go in. The ONLY type 2's he sees are legacy individuals because a family member already owns the company and they're going to take it over. I tend to equate it to the military model in some ways. You have the enlisted folks, and you have the officers. And in many cases it's kind of that split right from the start. And in terms of the trades, nobody wants to be an officer because if you're a Type A entrepreneur who would succeed in building a business...you can probably find an easier way to build a business than being in the trades and learning it all and working in a physically taxing job for a decade or two before going out on your own. So there's probably an opportunity gap there for some really motivated smart kids to just forego college, join the trades with the idea of building a successful business...but for those types of people there are better options elsewhere.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 15:15:52 GMT -5
I agree completely. I also think we should stop frowning at trades people. I have rentals and know what I pay my plumbers, HVAC and contractors. I have no idea why parents aren't encouraging kids to go into those fields, other than people think they can brag about Johnny going to college and having an office job versus Jimmy who comes home dirty. Except Johnny is saddled with $50k in student loan debt while making a $45k salary, while Jimmy is bringing home $75k with no debt. From the tradespeople I know (I know quite a few) they don't encourage their kids to go into the trades primarily because "it's a hard life". It can be pretty physically taxing, I know there are lots of suggestions on here about "well start a business"...but not everyone can be a business owner with employees under them, the numbers don't pan out. People on here/people who support more trades are also highly optimistic about what the average tradespeople make (at least as it compares to what the average professional makes in other areas). I can't tell you how many tradespeople I know who now work big box retail because their bodies broke down doing it. My plumber (who also happens to be my HS gf's father, which is to say he's known me for a very long time) put it to me this way (I'm not saying it's true, but it's his 40 year perspective). He knows I'm into renovation, and he was saying I could have made a ton of money in the trades because I'd be running a house-building company or something. His point of view is that decades ago you had 2 kinds of people going into the trades, and people pretty much knew which type they were going in. 1. People not inclined towards formal education who would work the trade job till their body broke down. 2. Type A smart kids who just had a lot of interest in the area and would be the eventual business owners. Today he says it's pretty much only the Type 1s he sees go in. The ONLY type 2's he sees are legacy individuals because a family member already owns the company and they're going to take it over. I tend to equate it to the military model in some ways. You have the enlisted folks, and you have the officers. And in many cases it's kind of that split right from the start. And in terms of the trades, nobody wants to be an officer because if you're a Type A entrepreneur who would succeed in building a business...you can probably find an easier way to build a business than being in the trades and learning it all and working in a physically taxing job for a decade or two before going out on your own. So there's probably an opportunity gap there for some really motivated smart kids to just forego college, join the trades with the idea of building a successful business...but for those types of people there are better options elsewhere. Fair enough. My ex started in HVAC and after years of being outside in the brutal winters and summers, he had enough and moved on to energy management systems. We divorced 5 years ago so I do not know what he makes now (he has since been promoted to upper management) but at the time he was making $90k (that included bonuses), had a company car, 5 weeks and government holidays. Not the biggest salary out there but we live in a pretty low cost of living area so for our area that is a really good salary. His education is a one year certificate from our community college in electrical. He faired much better than my niece (his family) that has $50k in student loan debt for a completely worthless degree. She is 32 years old now and works in a billing office of a hospital. And sadly, after 10 years of making minimum student loan payments, her balance is pretty much the same. while I get how they try to make repayments easier, I do not understand why student loan repayments are amortized in such a way that people literally cannot pay them off. If I go buy a $50k car, my payment is such that I would pay it off in X amount of years. It should be the same with student loans.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Nov 15, 2019 15:25:06 GMT -5
The world we live in now is a lot different than the one boomers, gen X and even myself as an older millennial grew up in. You can say it's unfair but it is what it is and a lot of it is the rest of the world catching up. I think people would be better off realizing this and trying to improve their situation while making smart decisions (don't rack up 100K+ in debt for a degree that isn't worth it) but that's harder than supporting politicians or political beliefs that say they'll make your life better.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 15, 2019 15:29:39 GMT -5
The world we live in now is a lot different than the one boomers, gen X and even myself as an older millennial grew up in. You can say it's unfair but it is what it is and a lot of it is the rest of the world catching up. I think people would be better off realizing this and trying to improve their situation while making smart decisions (don't rack up 100K+ in debt for a degree that isn't worth it) but that's harder than supporting politicians or political beliefs that say they'll make your life better. If you believe that the problem is "these people are ruining the way the system itself works" then isn't one of the most impactful ways of changing things to support politicians you think will change things? Isn't that really the complaint, not that "things are just different" but that "these folks are ruining the core of the system". I think both pieces of advice have merit. On the one hand you have to make your own personal decisions based on today, but you can still work to fix a system in the long term. Like I don't see anyone saying "the system is broken, so don't try to get a job, just hope that Bernie (or whoever) will institute a plan to give us all free housing, food, etc...don't do anything, just hang out and wait for it to happen". I also think a lot of the "don't rack up 100k in debt" counter-argument goes a lot like "you're basically preying on kids and roping them into a lifetime of financial difficulty". Why do we think that 18 year olds can make lifelong financial decisions but they can't drink alcohol because of their decision-making?
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Miss Tequila
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Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 15, 2019 16:00:59 GMT -5
The world we live in now is a lot different than the one boomers, gen X and even myself as an older millennial grew up in. You can say it's unfair but it is what it is and a lot of it is the rest of the world catching up. I think people would be better off realizing this and trying to improve their situation while making smart decisions (don't rack up 100K+ in debt for a degree that isn't worth it) but that's harder than supporting politicians or political beliefs that say they'll make your life better. If you believe that the problem is "these people are ruining the way the system itself works" then isn't one of the most impactful ways of changing things to support politicians you think will change things? Isn't that really the complaint, not that "things are just different" but that "these folks are ruining the core of the system". I think both pieces of advice have merit. On the one hand you have to make your own personal decisions based on today, but you can still work to fix a system in the long term. Like I don't see anyone saying "the system is broken, so don't try to get a job, just hope that Bernie (or whoever) will institute a plan to give us all free housing, food, etc...don't do anything, just hang out and wait for it to happen". I also think a lot of the "don't rack up 100k in debt" counter-argument goes a lot like "you're basically preying on kids and roping them into a lifetime of financial difficulty". Why do we think that 18 year olds can make lifelong financial decisions but they can't drink alcohol because of their decision-making?The flip side is, if not for student loans I would not be where I am today in life. Even though I worked full time and went to school full time, I still had to take out student loans. Should kids like me be penalized because some kids are stupid and just take out massive loans for worthless degrees? If an 18 year old can sign up with the military and risk their life to protect our country, they should be held accountable for student loan debt. Maybe instead of teaching to the test in school, kids should be taught some financial skills. I know we didn't have that when I was in school and my mom was an idiot with money. I truly think I was born an accountant!lol
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