saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Nov 11, 2019 11:35:24 GMT -5
I feel like replying - OK Boomer - to a lot of these posts lately. I should stop reading and posting for a while I think
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bookkeeper
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Post by bookkeeper on Nov 11, 2019 11:39:28 GMT -5
I know it is state-specific. And our kids start preparing for high school math in middle school, too. That is how they know who needs to take Algebra I while in 8th grade, Algebra I while in 9th grade, or Algebra IA and IB in 9th and 10th grade. They don't just pull names from a hat. And no matter what a curriculum "says," there are bound to be kids in your school who cannot pass a true Algebra II class. It's easy to require something on paper (our 4x4, for example), but graduating students is still a priority. And that priority includes students with learning disabilities who often need a slower pace. Check your master schedule sometimes, and you are certain to find several different versions of Algebra II. We have Alg II with Trig, non Trig, with Trig Adv Level, etc. The kids that can't handle Algebra 2 went to work on manufacturing lines, not to community college, that's why there is now a need for remedial math in college. These jobs don't exist anymore, so they go to college. I think Phil is longing for a day that didn't exist. I watched a program on public tv a few days ago about Artificial Intelligence and how it has replaced many blue collar jobs. The program was Frontline and was titled "In the Age of AI". The program quoted some eye opening statistics. The job choices for previous generations is not what is available today. Just as Amazon and self checkout has eliminated many retail jobs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 11:53:10 GMT -5
I know it is state-specific. And our kids start preparing for high school math in middle school, too. That is how they know who needs to take Algebra I while in 8th grade, Algebra I while in 9th grade, or Algebra IA and IB in 9th and 10th grade. They don't just pull names from a hat. And no matter what a curriculum "says," there are bound to be kids in your school who cannot pass a true Algebra II class. It's easy to require something on paper (our 4x4, for example), but graduating students is still a priority. And that priority includes students with learning disabilities who often need a slower pace. Check your master schedule sometimes, and you are certain to find several different versions of Algebra II. We have Alg II with Trig, non Trig, with Trig Adv Level, etc. But there were still kids like that back in the day. I BARELY passed the one required high school math class and that was after a redo in summer school and had to take two remedial classes in college to get me up to speed to take Calc there. I just don't personally see that they're loosening up the math curriculum requirements. It seems the opposite to me. Yes, not all kids are going to be able to handle it but it doesn't mean they're loosening the standards. Here they get moved to the alternative school if they can't meet the regular high school ones even with Summer school and extra tutoring. A lot of those kids go to work after high school or the technical college. Really? I don't think they are moving the kids with learning disabilities there, but I could be wrong. I have been before.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 11:57:52 GMT -5
But there were still kids like that back in the day. I BARELY passed the one required high school math class and that was after a redo in summer school and had to take two remedial classes in college to get me up to speed to take Calc there. I just don't personally see that they're loosening up the math curriculum requirements. It seems the opposite to me. Yes, not all kids are going to be able to handle it but it doesn't mean they're loosening the standards. Here they get moved to the alternative school if they can't meet the regular high school ones even with Summer school and extra tutoring. A lot of those kids go to work after high school or the technical college. Really? I don't think they are moving the kids with learning disabilities there, but I could be wrong. I have been before. I really have no idea what they do for the kids with learning disabilities, but you can't tell me that 30 years ago there wasn't that problem and schools were cranking out kids so much better at math back then compared to now which is what Phil is saying.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 11:58:35 GMT -5
I feel like replying - OK Boomer - to a lot of these posts lately. I should stop reading and posting for a while I think Oh, those weren't the good old days in education, trust me. They reflect a time when educating every student to his/her potential was not a priority. That was never ok with this boomer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 12:01:46 GMT -5
Really? I don't think they are moving the kids with learning disabilities there, but I could be wrong. I have been before. I really have no idea what they do for the kids with learning disabilities, but you can't tell me that 30 years ago there wasn't that problem and schools were cranking out kids so much better at math back then compared to now which is what Phil is saying. I can only speak for my generation. When I graduated in the 1970s, you dropped out of school at 16 if you couldn't pass. You usually didn't come at all if you had intellectual disabilities, but if you did, there was a special classroom just for "those kids." So, yeah, that probably did leave only the kids capable of doing math or whatever. It was a different population, a point that Phil doesn't acknowledge.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2019 12:15:50 GMT -5
I feel like replying - OK Boomer - to a lot of these posts lately. I should stop reading and posting for a while I think No, I highly encourage you to do so. Signed-Gen Xer who has had enough of the Boomers' shit.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2019 12:18:02 GMT -5
I really have no idea what they do for the kids with learning disabilities, but you can't tell me that 30 years ago there wasn't that problem and schools were cranking out kids so much better at math back then compared to now which is what Phil is saying. I can only speak for my generation. When I graduated in the 1970s, you dropped out of school at 16 if you couldn't pass. You usually didn't come at all if you had intellectual disabilities, but if you did, there was a special classroom just for "those kids." So, yeah, that probably did leave only the kids capable of doing math or whatever. It was a different population, a point that Phil doesn't acknowledge. No, I'm sure it's because we're soft on kids and they can't dress their own hogs and drive a combine at 12.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Nov 11, 2019 12:27:09 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Nov 11, 2019 12:30:57 GMT -5
s My DS and DIL were at a dealership checking out new/used cars and overheard a conversation between a salesperson and potential buyers who were turned down to lease a car at $500 per month. The salesperson explained, "You can understand the company's decision when you consider that you don't even have $500 for the upfront payment." I remember attending a retirement seminar with XH, who had a graduate degree in engineering. After the seminar he said if he knew about the time value of money and compound interest, he would have been much more interested in saving for retirement way earlier. His work had nothing to do with those things. If he thought about those things, he could have figured it out but it just didn't enter his radar. He was much more inclined to see money as something to spend, not to save. My story is somewhat similar to your XH's. Math has always been my buddy, but that doesn't mean that I have always been good at handling or allocating money. I don't want to talk about the math competition prizes that I got in high school, or the two calculus APs that I took in high school during the eighties or what my math SAT re-centers to. Let's just say that I always liked math, was measurably good at it, and utterly failed to apply it to how I handled money.
My problem wasn't so much that I saw money as something to be spent but that I failed to understand how debt obligations would diminish my discretionary income, making it extremely difficult to accelerate debt repayment, save, invest, or handle a bump on the road. I'm probably lucky that I hit a skint patch twenty years ago and was forced to re-evaluate. I now have a healthy appreciation for keeping my nut low and actually investing a large amount of what is left over.
It might also be worth mentioning that I quite deliberately bought a house within walking distance of work because I had a healthy understanding of how most people need to drive in order to work. I wished to avoid getting caught in that particular vise.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 11, 2019 12:35:29 GMT -5
I can only speak for my generation. When I graduated in the 1970s, you dropped out of school at 16 if you couldn't pass. You usually didn't come at all if you had intellectual disabilities, but if you did, there was a special classroom just for "those kids." So, yeah, that probably did leave only the kids capable of doing math or whatever. It was a different population, a point that Phil doesn't acknowledge. No, I'm sure it's because we're soft on kids and they can't dress their own hogs and drive a combine at 12. Unless I am very much mistaken (and I don't think I am) Phil is too old to be a boomer. I also think all this nonsense about how bringing everything back to generations is just that utter nonsense. Each generation faces a "different world" that it has to navigate. And the "okay boomer" reaction is just as ignorant as the "when I was your age" is on the other side. That said -> I love, love, love Weird Al's When I was your age lyrics
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 11, 2019 13:03:34 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders. Yes, most 18-30 year olds who are high school educated only are dumber than shit. Most people, in general, are dumber than shit. The biggest difference I see between now and say 50 years ago is that 50 years ago you could be dumber than shit and find plenty of jobs that really only required you to show up and be a living breathing person and you could make a decent living being dumber than shit. Hell I've got tons of those folks in my family...they drove a tractor in a straight line in a field that someone told them to drive it in. They got behind a cow and made noise until the cow walked away from them into the barn to be milked. Some of these people weren't even smart enough to stand more than kicking distance behind the cows. They made enough money to buy cars, buy houses, raise children, etc. When those people wanted to take a week off work to go fishing, they could get a kid like me to go visit the family for a week and you could put a 6-10 year old in their place with no experience and the process wouldn't even change. There are far fewer jobs these days where the requirement is "be a human body with basic motor skills". Heck I'm pretty sure most of those folks couldn't even DRIVE today's tractors with all the computers involved. For all of the "good old days" talk...take the average 18 year old high school grad today, and the average 18 year old high school grad 50 years ago...and you'd be amazed at how just plain stupid the one from 50 years ago seems. 18 year olds today are learning VASTLY more complicated things, because those things are available now. You HAD to learn basics of things 50 years ago, because if you didn't you had nothing. There are mountains of things you simply don't really NEED to learn today, because instead you're learning how to get that information from computers, or getting the information if you need it later online, or whatever. If I can give one example (I didn't graduate 50 years ago, but the internet was not nearly the size it is now, etc). I remember in biology, it was a HUGE thing that you had to learn all the bones in the human body. Wow, what a WASTE. There is literally no reason whatsoever I need to memorize the names of all the bones. So yes, it's very fun to point out how much a random person knew graduating HS 50 years ago, and how much useless knowledge they had. There are all kinds of stories and legislation that had to be passed back then to keep people dumber than shit from losing all their money because they were too stupid to know they were making bad decisions. The difference now is that with the internet it's far easier to either go around those rules or to reach massive amounts of people and cast a much wider net.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 11, 2019 13:06:42 GMT -5
No, I'm sure it's because we're soft on kids and they can't dress their own hogs and drive a combine at 12. Unless I am very much mistaken (and I don't think I am) Phil is too old to be a boomer. I also think all this nonsense about how bringing everything back to generations is just that utter nonsense. Each generation faces a "different world" that it has to navigate. And the "okay boomer" reaction is just as ignorant as the "when I was your age" is on the other side.That said -> I love, love, love Weird Al's When I was your age lyrics I think the primary difference is that "when I was your age" harkens back to the past, and isn't grounded in TODAY's reality. The "ok boomer" thing is more about "you aren't living in today's world, you're stuck in the past, catch up". Personally, I think there's a lot more ignorance in wanting to live in the past than there is in expecting people to catch up to how things are today (which is to say, I think "ok boomer" is a lot less ignorant than "when I was your age"...it's just not very respectful and not likely to lead to positive discussion...but I do think the sentiment behind it is a lot less ignorant given that it's typically used for looking forward rather than backward).
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2019 13:16:26 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders. Yes, most 18-30 year olds who are high school educated only are dumber than shit. Most people, in general, are dumber than shit. The biggest difference I see between now and say 50 years ago is that 50 years ago you could be dumber than shit and find plenty of jobs that really only required you to show up and be a living breathing person and you could make a decent living being dumber than shit. Hell I've got tons of those folks in my family...they drove a tractor in a straight line in a field that someone told them to drive it in. They got behind a cow and made noise until the cow walked away from them into the barn to be milked. Some of these people weren't even smart enough to stand more than kicking distance behind the cows. They made enough money to buy cars, buy houses, raise children, etc. When those people wanted to take a week off work to go fishing, they could get a kid like me to go visit the family for a week and you could put a 6-10 year old in their place with no experience and the process wouldn't even change. There are far fewer jobs these days where the requirement is "be a human body with basic motor skills". Heck I'm pretty sure most of those folks couldn't even DRIVE today's tractors with all the computers involved. For all of the "good old days" talk...take the average 18 year old high school grad today, and the average 18 year old high school grad 50 years ago...and you'd be amazed at how just plain stupid the one from 50 years ago seems. 18 year olds today are learning VASTLY more complicated things, because those things are available now. You HAD to learn basics of things 50 years ago, because if you didn't you had nothing. There are mountains of things you simply don't really NEED to learn today, because instead you're learning how to get that information from computers, or getting the information if you need it later online, or whatever. If I can give one example (I didn't graduate 50 years ago, but the internet was not nearly the size it is now, etc). I remember in biology, it was a HUGE thing that you had to learn all the bones in the human body. Wow, what a WASTE. There is literally no reason whatsoever I need to memorize the names of all the bones. So yes, it's very fun to point out how much a random person knew graduating HS 50 years ago, and how much useless knowledge they had. There are all kinds of stories and legislation that had to be passed back then to keep people dumber than shit from losing all their money because they were too stupid to know they were making bad decisions. The difference now is that with the internet it's far easier to either go around those rules or to reach massive amounts of people and cast a much wider net.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Nov 11, 2019 13:23:38 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders. Yes, most 18-30 year olds who are high school educated only are dumber than shit. Most people, in general, are dumber than shit. The biggest difference I see between now and say 50 years ago is that 50 years ago you could be dumber than shit and find plenty of jobs that really only required you to show up and be a living breathing person and you could make a decent living being dumber than shit. Hell I've got tons of those folks in my family...they drove a tractor in a straight line in a field that someone told them to drive it in. They got behind a cow and made noise until the cow walked away from them into the barn to be milked. Some of these people weren't even smart enough to stand more than kicking distance behind the cows. They made enough money to buy cars, buy houses, raise children, etc. When those people wanted to take a week off work to go fishing, they could get a kid like me to go visit the family for a week and you could put a 6-10 year old in their place with no experience and the process wouldn't even change. There are far fewer jobs these days where the requirement is "be a human body with basic motor skills". Heck I'm pretty sure most of those folks couldn't even DRIVE today's tractors with all the computers involved. For all of the "good old days" talk...take the average 18 year old high school grad today, and the average 18 year old high school grad 50 years ago...and you'd be amazed at how just plain stupid the one from 50 years ago seems. 18 year olds today are learning VASTLY more complicated things, because those things are available now. You HAD to learn basics of things 50 years ago, because if you didn't you had nothing. There are mountains of things you simply don't really NEED to learn today, because instead you're learning how to get that information from computers, or getting the information if you need it later online, or whatever. If I can give one example (I didn't graduate 50 years ago, but the internet was not nearly the size it is now, etc). I remember in biology, it was a HUGE thing that you had to learn all the bones in the human body. Wow, what a WASTE. There is literally no reason whatsoever I need to memorize the names of all the bones. So yes, it's very fun to point out how much a random person knew graduating HS 50 years ago, and how much useless knowledge they had. There are all kinds of stories and legislation that had to be passed back then to keep people dumber than shit from losing all their money because they were too stupid to know they were making bad decisions. The difference now is that with the internet it's far easier to either go around those rules or to reach massive amounts of people and cast a much wider net. You touched on a very good point of the difference of generations. I would like to take it a bit further. Since the work years ago was more labor intensive the dumber than shit person then was raised to be very self reliant, far from lazy. In today's world thanks to so called advancement the same ones are lazy they cannot think or do for themselves. There is a certain position at work that i'm over it's rather technical but i try to advance from within the company to give the newer associates a chance to move up. Once you start talking the extra hours needed for training and the physical aspect of starting out as a newbie they balk at it. Immediately wanting to advance to 50k. The job tops out at 75k but starts at about 35 they want everything now don't want to put the work in
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Nov 11, 2019 13:24:09 GMT -5
""No, I'm sure it's because we're soft on kids and they can't dress their own hogs and drive a combine at 12. """ Lol, - funny that you should mention that - I just returned to az from 3 weeks of combine-driving in the mid-west. But corn harvesting is way more pleasant than it was when I was 12 - a heated cab, power steering, GPS, yada. No longer need to hitch up a team & wagon.
""Unless I am very much mistaken (and I don't think I am) Phil is too old to be a boomer. """ Yeah, I'm about 5 years older than the oldest boomers.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 11, 2019 13:24:41 GMT -5
Yes, most 18-30 year olds who are high school educated only are dumber than shit. Most people, in general, are dumber than shit. The biggest difference I see between now and say 50 years ago is that 50 years ago you could be dumber than shit and find plenty of jobs that really only required you to show up and be a living breathing person and you could make a decent living being dumber than shit. Hell I've got tons of those folks in my family...they drove a tractor in a straight line in a field that someone told them to drive it in. They got behind a cow and made noise until the cow walked away from them into the barn to be milked. Some of these people weren't even smart enough to stand more than kicking distance behind the cows. They made enough money to buy cars, buy houses, raise children, etc. When those people wanted to take a week off work to go fishing, they could get a kid like me to go visit the family for a week and you could put a 6-10 year old in their place with no experience and the process wouldn't even change. There are far fewer jobs these days where the requirement is "be a human body with basic motor skills". Heck I'm pretty sure most of those folks couldn't even DRIVE today's tractors with all the computers involved. For all of the "good old days" talk...take the average 18 year old high school grad today, and the average 18 year old high school grad 50 years ago...and you'd be amazed at how just plain stupid the one from 50 years ago seems. 18 year olds today are learning VASTLY more complicated things, because those things are available now. You HAD to learn basics of things 50 years ago, because if you didn't you had nothing. There are mountains of things you simply don't really NEED to learn today, because instead you're learning how to get that information from computers, or getting the information if you need it later online, or whatever. If I can give one example (I didn't graduate 50 years ago, but the internet was not nearly the size it is now, etc). I remember in biology, it was a HUGE thing that you had to learn all the bones in the human body. Wow, what a WASTE. There is literally no reason whatsoever I need to memorize the names of all the bones. So yes, it's very fun to point out how much a random person knew graduating HS 50 years ago, and how much useless knowledge they had. There are all kinds of stories and legislation that had to be passed back then to keep people dumber than shit from losing all their money because they were too stupid to know they were making bad decisions. The difference now is that with the internet it's far easier to either go around those rules or to reach massive amounts of people and cast a much wider net. ETA: I have seen the effects of this around me. There were a few factories that paid very very well. Think major car manufacturer and major metal works. The plants have either closed or scaled way down. There is a whole generation who came out of HS and went right to work at the plants and made a decent living. They own homes, have later model cars, have hunting camps, had plenty of discretionary income. They are now retired and live on a really good pension, have fabulous health insurance, and life is good for them. Most aren't exactly rocket scientists, and worried more about how their kid did at football than school. Their kids may or may not have worked in the factories. The ones who did, did OK for themselves. Not as well as the retirees but not shabby. Some found good jobs when the plants closed, some moved, some are still waiting for Car Manufacturer to show up and give them a job. They are also not really bright. The grandkids are a freakin' train wreck. No education, not smart, and lots have drug problems. But they were fabulous football players in HS.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 13:35:59 GMT -5
ETA: I have seen the effects of this around me. There were a few factories that paid very very well. Think major car manufacturer and major metal works. The plants have either closed or scaled way down. There is a whole generation who came out of HS and went right to work at the plants and made a decent living. They own homes, have later model cars, have hunting camps, had plenty of discretionary income. They are now retired and live on a really good pension, have fabulous health insurance, and life is good for them. Most aren't exactly rocket scientists, and worried more about how their kid did at football than school. Their kids may or may not have worked in the factories. The ones who did, did OK for themselves. Not as well as the retirees but not shabby. Some found good jobs when the plants closed, some moved, some are still waiting for Car Manufacturer to show up and give them a job. They are also not really bright. The grandkids are a freakin' train wreck. No education, not smart, and lots have drug problems. But they were fabulous football players in HS. My area still has tons of manufacturing in several industries. Any kid with a pulse can get a job right out of high school making decent money. Nothing fantastic and pensions are non-existant, but enough that a couple could afford to buy a house and pay daycare with nothing but a high school diploma. I ride my kids pretty hard on the college track thing because it's so easy for kids around here to not bother and do fine. That plan might not work out long term.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Nov 11, 2019 13:36:12 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders. Why is the school's fault that kids aren't motivated? Or can't critically think? Wouldn't that be the fault of parents?
And wouldn't that have started with how you parented your kids...I'm in my early-mid 40s. I'm guessing that your kids can't be much different in age than myself...And your grandkids are the same age as my kids...
What did you do to help raise a generation of critical thinkers? Did you make sure to step up so that your kids' friends could have some gaps filled in...Or suddenly, your generation decided that it really doesn't take a village to raise kids...It's the school's job to raise kids..And you think it's acceptable that teachers are now expected to teach AND parent....
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Nov 11, 2019 13:45:23 GMT -5
Yay! Boomer bashing! There's never enough of that! We love hearing about how worthless we are.
Please feel free to hate me because of the date of my birth since, of course, it was all my fault for choosing to be born then.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 13:50:47 GMT -5
Yay! Boomer bashing! There's never enough of that! We love hearing about how worthless we are. Please feel free to hate me because of the date of my birth since, of course, it was all my fault for choosing to be born then. I don't think anyone was bashing Boomers. Just the whole "when I was your age" talk.
All the generations have their critics. The Boomers and the Millenials have been having an all out war with one another for a long time. I'm an apathetic Gen X'er that wishes they would both knock it off.
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 11, 2019 14:01:10 GMT -5
ETA: I have seen the effects of this around me. There were a few factories that paid very very well. Think major car manufacturer and major metal works. The plants have either closed or scaled way down. There is a whole generation who came out of HS and went right to work at the plants and made a decent living. They own homes, have later model cars, have hunting camps, had plenty of discretionary income. They are now retired and live on a really good pension, have fabulous health insurance, and life is good for them. Most aren't exactly rocket scientists, and worried more about how their kid did at football than school. Their kids may or may not have worked in the factories. The ones who did, did OK for themselves. Not as well as the retirees but not shabby. Some found good jobs when the plants closed, some moved, some are still waiting for Car Manufacturer to show up and give them a job. They are also not really bright. The grandkids are a freakin' train wreck. No education, not smart, and lots have drug problems. But they were fabulous football players in HS. My dad, who eventually went on to make a very nice living, got a job immediately out of HS at a factory about 30 minutes away from his hometown (he was a very hard worker and eventually got a degree by working nights and going to school in the day, working his way up, etc). When he STARTED out though, he was fresh out of HS. He got a job machining parts at the factory. Based on THAT job, he was able to buy 10 acres of land outside of a small town, and build a decent sized house. There were TONS of people he started with who were machinists for 40+ years. He was on union scale, so it's not like he was some superstar who negotiated an amazing machinist pay. He was little more than a warm body with basic motor skills...making enough money that he could afford to buy/build in a way that I wouldn't have felt financially secure doing in a responsible way making $100k/year (I will admit that some of this is simply my frugality in things like this). In terms of security, there's also something to be said for the idea that I'm positive when he started working in the factory, he knew he could just work in that factory his entire life. They weren't going anywhere. Meanwhile I'm not sure I've ever worked anywhere that I expected the physical location to be around in 10 more years. If we go further back to his parents, who he would likely have classified as "dirt poor" (his father was a handyman and occasional farmhand, his mother stayed at home and babysat a few kids now and then)...and they lived in a 3-bedroom house. Not the nicest house by any means, but not a . They had a 1/2 acre lot in town, 2 story house. Their combined income if they did the same today would have been enough to maybe rent a 2-bedroom apartment in a crappy part of town. I'm sure in today's world they wouldn't be making more than $25-30k combined between the 2 of them.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2019 14:14:10 GMT -5
ETA: I have seen the effects of this around me. There were a few factories that paid very very well. Think major car manufacturer and major metal works. The plants have either closed or scaled way down. There is a whole generation who came out of HS and went right to work at the plants and made a decent living. They own homes, have later model cars, have hunting camps, had plenty of discretionary income. They are now retired and live on a really good pension, have fabulous health insurance, and life is good for them. Most aren't exactly rocket scientists, and worried more about how their kid did at football than school. Their kids may or may not have worked in the factories. The ones who did, did OK for themselves. Not as well as the retirees but not shabby. Some found good jobs when the plants closed, some moved, some are still waiting for Car Manufacturer to show up and give them a job. They are also not really bright. The grandkids are a freakin' train wreck. No education, not smart, and lots have drug problems. But they were fabulous football players in HS. Unfortunately, it is much cheaper to manufacturer in places like China where they make about 10% of what a US factory worker makes. We want to be a global economy so this is what happens. We will never be able to compete with countries that have zero protections for their employees.
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Deleted
Joined: Apr 19, 2024 6:06:57 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 14:25:41 GMT -5
ETA: I have seen the effects of this around me. There were a few factories that paid very very well. Think major car manufacturer and major metal works. The plants have either closed or scaled way down. There is a whole generation who came out of HS and went right to work at the plants and made a decent living. They own homes, have later model cars, have hunting camps, had plenty of discretionary income. They are now retired and live on a really good pension, have fabulous health insurance, and life is good for them. Most aren't exactly rocket scientists, and worried more about how their kid did at football than school. Their kids may or may not have worked in the factories. The ones who did, did OK for themselves. Not as well as the retirees but not shabby. Some found good jobs when the plants closed, some moved, some are still waiting for Car Manufacturer to show up and give them a job. They are also not really bright. The grandkids are a freakin' train wreck. No education, not smart, and lots have drug problems. But they were fabulous football players in HS. Unfortunately, it is much cheaper to manufacturer in places like China where they make about 10% of what a US factory worker makes. We want to be a global economy so this is what happens. We will never be able to compete with countries that have zero protections for their employees. My company uses the cheap labor in places like China, Thailand and Mexico to build established high volume stuff that we need further down the process. In the states we do all the design and development as well as produce the things that can't be built overseas due to regulations. There is a lot more high dollar work done here because the low profit stuff we're able to farm out. It's better for us to have our floor space for systems integration manufacturing than board level.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 11, 2019 14:49:17 GMT -5
The kids that can't handle Algebra 2 went to work on manufacturing lines, not to community college, that's why there is now a need for remedial math in college. These jobs don't exist anymore, so they go to college. I think Phil is longing for a day that didn't exist. I watched a program on public tv a few days ago about Artificial Intelligence and how it has replaced many blue collar jobs. The program was Frontline and was titled "In the Age of AI". The program quoted some eye opening statistics. The job choices for previous generations is not what is available today. Just as Amazon and self checkout has eliminated many retail jobs. I watched "In The Age Of AI". It was eye-opening and more than a little frightening. A full half of jobs will be made obsolete and replaced by robots. Robots don't pay taxes.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2019 14:53:23 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it is much cheaper to manufacturer in places like China where they make about 10% of what a US factory worker makes. We want to be a global economy so this is what happens. We will never be able to compete with countries that have zero protections for their employees. My company uses the cheap labor in places like China, Thailand and Mexico to build established high volume stuff that we need further down the process. In the states we do all the design and development as well as produce the things that can't be built overseas due to regulations. There is a lot more high dollar work done here because the low profit stuff we're able to farm out. It's better for us to have our floor space for systems integration manufacturing than board level. And the company I worked for previously manufactured a product that was not easily bought from china because if it failed, it could cause death. A lot of our customers would not accept cheap product from China (or other Asian countries). On the flip side, if it wasn't so cheap to manufacture in China, your company might source that high volume items from other US companies. As it is now, you can't make that same product in the US for the same price you can import it. That is why our manufacturing jobs have gone away. It isn't like we no longer buy manufactured items, we just won't pay the price it costs to cover those "good union jobs". We like our cheap shit from China.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 11, 2019 14:57:06 GMT -5
Unless I am very much mistaken (and I don't think I am) Phil is too old to be a boomer. I also think all this nonsense about how bringing everything back to generations is just that utter nonsense. Each generation faces a "different world" that it has to navigate. And the "okay boomer" reaction is just as ignorant as the "when I was your age" is on the other side.That said -> I love, love, love Weird Al's When I was your age lyrics I think the primary difference is that "when I was your age" harkens back to the past, and isn't grounded in TODAY's reality. The "ok boomer" thing is more about "you aren't living in today's world, you're stuck in the past, catch up". Personally, I think there's a lot more ignorance in wanting to live in the past than there is in expecting people to catch up to how things are today (which is to say, I think "ok boomer" is a lot less ignorant than "when I was your age"...it's just not very respectful and not likely to lead to positive discussion...but I do think the sentiment behind it is a lot less ignorant given that it's typically used for looking forward rather than backward). And that statement assumes that "today's world" is one dimensional, OIW that it is the same for all who live now. That is by not true by any stretch of the imaginaion. Not even if you limit it to a specific geographic area. IMO it is more a denial of the fact that different generations have different needs and expectations. BTW, the ok boomer trope belongs to Gen Z and I suspect that the vast majority on this board is too old to use it without appropriating the words of the next generation
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Lizard Queen
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103/2024
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 11, 2019 15:05:52 GMT -5
I read that it's a millenial thing, and millenials aren't all that young any more.
I get annoyed by all the bitching about education these days, because my kids seem to be getting a great education in the public schools these days. I went to a private school in the 70-80's, and was a year ahead of my classmates when I switched to public school. My kids are beyond where I was in the private school back then. I think their teachers are great, and they seem to work really hard to teach all the kids, as diverse as they are.
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Deleted
Joined: Apr 19, 2024 6:06:57 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 15:11:27 GMT -5
My company uses the cheap labor in places like China, Thailand and Mexico to build established high volume stuff that we need further down the process. In the states we do all the design and development as well as produce the things that can't be built overseas due to regulations. There is a lot more high dollar work done here because the low profit stuff we're able to farm out. It's better for us to have our floor space for systems integration manufacturing than board level. And the company I worked for previously manufactured a product that was not easily bought from china because if it failed, it could cause death. A lot of our customers would not accept cheap product from China (or other Asian countries). On the flip side, if it wasn't so cheap to manufacture in China, your company might source that high volume items from other US companies. As it is now, you can't make that same product in the US for the same price you can import it. That is why our manufacturing jobs have gone away. It isn't like we no longer buy manufactured items, we just won't pay the price it costs to cover those "good union jobs". We like our cheap shit from China. I think you misunderstood. We don't buy from Chinese companies. We have plants in all these countries and build there. We can't GET the people we need here even paying them well. Lack of bodies has always been our biggest issue and in the 25 years I've been here I only remember a few stretches where there wasn't a mandatory weekend OT rotation for the production floor.
Among other things, we build high end medical devices regulated by the FDA.
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ednkris
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Joined: Feb 7, 2016 9:11:03 GMT -5
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Post by ednkris on Nov 11, 2019 15:18:41 GMT -5
I think it is a generational thing. Overall schools have been slipping for quite some time. From what i have now seen with my grandkids its starting to pick back up. If anyone here is in the position of hiring general workers not college educated they would probably agree that the work force of 18-30 years olds are dumber than shit. You might get 1 or 2 out of 15 applicants that are slightly motivated to do anything. This all trickles down to the car buying. This generation wants it all now they feel entitled. Oh they might try to work for it but have no idea what an $800 car pmt means. My wife just bought a car the I asked the sales man who the hell buys a 60k truck he was say these younger kids are getting loans for 10 yrs (i never hear of 10 yr) on a 30k salary. It go hand in hand dumber than shit consumer and predatory lenders. Why is the school's fault that kids aren't motivated? Or can't critically think? Wouldn't that be the fault of parents?
And wouldn't that have started with how you parented your kids...I'm in my early-mid 40s. I'm guessing that your kids can't be much different in age than myself...And your grandkids are the same age as my kids...
What did you do to help raise a generation of critical thinkers? Did you make sure to step up so that your kids' friends could have some gaps filled in...Or suddenly, your generation decided that it really doesn't take a village to raise kids...It's the school's job to raise kids..And you think it's acceptable that teachers are now expected to teach AND parent.... I think you have my point taken out of context. As far as the school system i think the parents nowadays rely too much on them to do the parenting. I think the school system is too soft on kids and the curriculum should be tougher. That would help with the critical thinking part. With today's technology kids don't have to work too hard to find answers anymore hell they don't even have to read, just punch a few words on a computer and they have what they need handed to them. I think back in my / our days more was expected out of us not just school but society. You have my age wrong tho you and I are closer i'm 53, my kids are 30 and 26 with my oldest granddaughter being 11.
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