Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2019 21:52:44 GMT -5
Some family background history. US victims in Mexico massacre were tied to family with long history of violence
The roadside killings of nine U.S. citizens in northern Mexico has brought renewed attention to the scattered communities of Mormons who settled in the country more than a century ago to escape persecution. Some of the victims shared the last name LeBaron. They were related to a prominent fundamentalist Mormon family by the same name, said Daniel LeBaron, a cousin of one of the victims, Rhonita Maria Miller. Daniel LeBaron lives in Colonia LeBaron in Chihuahua state, a community established by fundamentalist Mormons in 1944 that has close ties to the LeBarons of Bavispe. The LeBarons are among “a handful of major groups of fundamentalists,” said Patrick Mason, a historian of Mormonism at Utah State University. But, he added: “The LeBaron name in recent decades has been most often linked to violence. Unfortunately, this incident only adds to that association.” The family is perhaps best known for a series of killings perpetrated in the 1970s and 1980s, in both Mexico and the United States, by Ervil LeBaron — once called the “Mormon Manson” — and a group of his followers. In 1972, two followers of Ervil LeBaron allegedly shot his brother, Joel, to death after the brothers had argued over leadership of their religious faction. Ervil was convicted of the crime, but the conviction was later overturned. He later was tried and convicted in the 1977 murder of rival polygamist leader, Dr. Rulon Allred. In 1993, his story was turned into a TV drama, “Prophet of Evil: The Ervil LeBaron Story.” Comple article here: US victims in Mexico massacre were tied to family with long history of violenceI am not sure what this had to do with the deaths of the 3 women, and six kids? Gee-I thought you of all people would be interested in the twdry background of this group. Lots of killings with firearms. Right up your alley.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2019 22:01:24 GMT -5
Oh, I thought that because there was violence in the families background, that minimized the deaths and wounding of the women and children. Well, you know they come from a family known for shooting people.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2019 22:03:44 GMT -5
Oh, I thought that because there was violence in the families background, that minimized the deaths and wounding of the women and children. Well, you know they come from a family known for shooting people.
And pologamy too!
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2019 22:05:06 GMT -5
OK.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,372
|
Post by thyme4change on Nov 6, 2019 22:17:11 GMT -5
Maybe we should have the pharmaceutical companies destroy the cartels. Free market!
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,197
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 7, 2019 8:58:09 GMT -5
Maybe we should have the pharmaceutical companies destroy the cartels. Free market! Repealing prohibition worked against the gangsters. Once their major source of income dried up they faded into the pages of history.
|
|
Gardening Grandma
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
Posts: 17,962
|
Post by Gardening Grandma on Nov 7, 2019 11:04:55 GMT -5
Some family background history. US victims in Mexico massacre were tied to family with long history of violence
The roadside killings of nine U.S. citizens in northern Mexico has brought renewed attention to the scattered communities of Mormons who settled in the country more than a century ago to escape persecution. Some of the victims shared the last name LeBaron. They were related to a prominent fundamentalist Mormon family by the same name, said Daniel LeBaron, a cousin of one of the victims, Rhonita Maria Miller. Daniel LeBaron lives in Colonia LeBaron in Chihuahua state, a community established by fundamentalist Mormons in 1944 that has close ties to the LeBarons of Bavispe. The LeBarons are among “a handful of major groups of fundamentalists,” said Patrick Mason, a historian of Mormonism at Utah State University. But, he added: “The LeBaron name in recent decades has been most often linked to violence. Unfortunately, this incident only adds to that association.” The family is perhaps best known for a series of killings perpetrated in the 1970s and 1980s, in both Mexico and the United States, by Ervil LeBaron — once called the “Mormon Manson” — and a group of his followers. In 1972, two followers of Ervil LeBaron allegedly shot his brother, Joel, to death after the brothers had argued over leadership of their religious faction. Ervil was convicted of the crime, but the conviction was later overturned. He later was tried and convicted in the 1977 murder of rival polygamist leader, Dr. Rulon Allred. In 1993, his story was turned into a TV drama, “Prophet of Evil: The Ervil LeBaron Story.” Comple article here: US victims in Mexico massacre were tied to family with long history of violenceInteresting background. Thanks
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 7, 2019 21:17:06 GMT -5
Here is what is interesting, rather than digging passed problem in their group, there should be concern for the 3 women, 6 kids killed, 5 wounded! All of which were American citizens.
Yes, I remember all your great concern about the kids and their treatment at the border holding facilities,,, American women and kids in Mexico,, Not so much. Ahhh that's right ,, they were Mormons!
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 7, 2019 22:08:04 GMT -5
Here is what is interesting, rather than digging passed problem in their group, there should be concern for the 3 women, 6 kids killed, 5 wounded! All of which were American citizens.
Yes, I remember all your great concern about the kids and their treatment at the border holding facilities,,, American women and kids in Mexico,, Not so much. Ahhh that's right ,, they were Mormons!
Where is your concern for the shootings at Columbine? Pulse nightclub? Las Vegas? Walmart? First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs? Stoneman Douglas High School? Newtown, Ct and on and on? They too were American citizens.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:02:52 GMT -5
I most certainly voice concern. In this case as was in all for the cases you used, Not a single gun acted alone!!
Or maybe you can provide a link where a gun escaped from the gun safe,, went on a rampage, all by it's self
So are you trying to divert this thread into an anti gun thread, where believe me, the Cartels would,,, of course,, abide by any gun laws the U.S. imposed
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 8, 2019 9:14:00 GMT -5
I most certainly voice concern. In this case as was in all for the cases you used, Not a single gun acted alone!!
Or maybe you can provide a link where a gun escaped from the gun safe,, went on a rampage, all by it's self
So are you trying to divert this thread into an anti gun thread, where believe me, the Cartels would,,, of course,, abide by any gun laws the U.S. imposed Aren't you doing the same?: turning this into a anti-gun thread? The cartels shouldn't have firearms is your position. And the Nevada guy couldn't have killed 58 and injured 413 in Las Vegas with his bare hands. It took two to tango: man and his firearm. Let Mexico deal with their own cartels. The Americans involved there knew they lived in an area where cartels were at war with each other. As the people killed and injuried held both Mexican and American citizenship, they could have and should have moved back to the States years ago. That's on them. But no, they wouldn't move back because they would no longer be able to practice polygamy.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,372
|
Post by thyme4change on Nov 8, 2019 9:16:30 GMT -5
Here is what is interesting, rather than digging passed problem in their group, there should be concern for the 3 women, 6 kids killed, 5 wounded! All of which were American citizens.
Yes, I remember all your great concern about the kids and their treatment at the border holding facilities,,, American women and kids in Mexico,, Not so much. Ahhh that's right ,, they were Mormons!
Is someone rejoicing in their deaths? Of course we all think it is horrible.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:18:59 GMT -5
Here is what is interesting, rather than digging passed problem in their group, there should be concern for the 3 women, 6 kids killed, 5 wounded! All of which were American citizens.
Yes, I remember all your great concern about the kids and their treatment at the border holding facilities,,, American women and kids in Mexico,, Not so much. Ahhh that's right ,, they were Mormons!
Is someone rejoicing in their deaths? Of course we all think it is horrible. Tenn, Wants to turn this into a gun control thing!
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:20:32 GMT -5
I most certainly voice concern. In this case as was in all for the cases you used, Not a single gun acted alone!!
Or maybe you can provide a link where a gun escaped from the gun safe,, went on a rampage, all by it's self
So are you trying to divert this thread into an anti gun thread, where believe me, the Cartels would,,, of course,, abide by any gun laws the U.S. imposed Aren't you doing the same?: turning this into a anti-gun thread? The cartels shouldn't have firearms is your position. And the Nevada guy couldn't have killed 58 and injured 413 in Las Vegas with his bare hands. It took two to tango: man and his firearm. Let Mexico deal with their own cartels. The Americans involved there knew they lived in an area where cartels were at war with each other. As the people killed and injuried held both Mexican and American citizenship, they could have and should have moved back to the States years ago. That's on them. But no, they wouldn't move back because they would no longer be able to practice polygamy. Not a single one of those guns did the act by themselves, did they!,, blame the tool.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 8, 2019 9:24:56 GMT -5
Aren't you doing the same?: turning this into a anti-gun thread? The cartels shouldn't have firearms is your position. And the Nevada guy couldn't have killed 58 and injured 413 in Las Vegas with his bare hands. It took two to tango: man and his firearm. Let Mexico deal with their own cartels. The Americans involved there knew they lived in an area where cartels were at war with each other. As the people killed and injuried held both Mexican and American citizenship, they could have and should have moved back to the States years ago. That's on them. But no, they wouldn't move back because they would no longer be able to practice polygamy. Not a single one of those guns did the act by themselves, did they!,, blame the tool. Let Mexico solve their problem. The U.S. needs to fix its firearm problem. Thoughts and prayers just don't seem to be stopping mass shootings.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:30:20 GMT -5
Grabbing AR15 is not going to either!
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 8, 2019 9:31:58 GMT -5
Grabbing AR15 is not going to either! It will some. Some is better than none.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:34:49 GMT -5
Grabbing AR15 is not going to either! It will some. Some is better than none. They should have grabbed this one before she could use it!
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,372
|
Post by thyme4change on Nov 8, 2019 9:35:06 GMT -5
Not a single one of those guns did the act by themselves, did they!,, blame the tool. Let Mexico solve their problem. The U.S. needs to fix its firearm problem. Thoughts and prayers just don't seem to be stopping mass shootings. Nationalists would not approve of sending money and resources to fix Mexico's problems. Isn't pulling out of other countries the current administration's goal?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 8, 2019 9:39:21 GMT -5
It will some. Some is better than none. They should have grabbed this one before she could use it! From your own link: "A pregnant Florida woman, armed with a semi-automatic rifle, gunned down one of two home invaders who had broken in and were pistol whipping her husband, officials said Monday. The deadly confrontation happened at about 9 p.m Wednesday on Old Welcome Road in Lithia, Florida, about 25 miles southeast of downtown Tampa, Hillsborough County Sheriff's spokeswoman Amanda Granit told NBC News. After the woman fired one shot from the family's AR-15-style rifle, both men fled and the mortally wounded robber collapsed in a drainage ditch outside where he died, according to deputies and her husband." A hand gun would have ended the same result as she only hit one of the intruders.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Nov 8, 2019 9:49:40 GMT -5
She only fired one shot!! Congratulation Tenn, you and I have taken a thread about the tragic deaths of women and children gunned down by the Cartels,, turned it into a gun debate!! Done!
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Nov 8, 2019 13:01:46 GMT -5
She only fired one shot!! Congratulation Tenn, you and I have taken a thread about the tragic deaths of women and children gunned down by the Cartels,, turned it into a gun debate!! Done!
. I remember your previous thread on cartel deaths, which number in the thousands every year, and they weren’t even blonde Mormons!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 20, 2024 7:25:42 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 14:45:24 GMT -5
Let Mexico solve their problem. The U.S. needs to fix its firearm problem. Thoughts and prayers just don't seem to be stopping mass shootings. Nationalists would not approve of sending money and resources to fix Mexico's problems. Isn't pulling out of other countries the current administration's goal? It would seem that way at times. (bolded) I'm for less involvement in the workings of other countries. That family chose to live in Mexico. Due diligence and all in regards to where you go. Not a U.S. problem
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Nov 8, 2019 20:17:07 GMT -5
It's sad to hear about. Almost as sad as the hundreds and hundreds of children being shot in school, concert goers being gunned down, innocents in church being murdered, young adults enjoying a night at the club dying at the hands of a mass shooter.
I don't remember seeing much out of the conservatives over all those deaths. In fact, they were down played, ridiculed, and in some cases, flat out denied to have happen. Selective outrage can go both ways. Now you're getting to see it first hand. Very sad, but maybe they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Or maybe they should have been armed to protect themselves in a place they knew to be dangerous. Maybe all they needed was a "good guy with a gun". Maybe they just needed to pray harder and find the right God.
But it is sad and I'm sure their families are devastated.
|
|
sesfw
Junior Associate
Today is the first day of the rest of my life
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 15:45:17 GMT -5
Posts: 6,268
|
Post by sesfw on Nov 8, 2019 20:59:06 GMT -5
But it is sad and I'm sure their families are devastated.
AMEN to this ....... so very sad. Three families going to a family wedding.
Back to the thread of a couple months ago that certain people thought I was horrible to even think about.
Gun control vs drug control
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Nov 8, 2019 21:17:30 GMT -5
Let me know when we have a War on Guns.
|
|
sesfw
Junior Associate
Today is the first day of the rest of my life
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 15:45:17 GMT -5
Posts: 6,268
|
Post by sesfw on Nov 9, 2019 10:04:55 GMT -5
I had another thought about this. The area this Mormon community lives in and has farmed for decades is good fertile soil.
Could the drug cartels have wanted the land and this is the only way they could get rid of the people already there? Nice fertile land to grow their drugs on?
Hope those losers are caught. Although the law enforcement in that area is probably part of the cartel.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 11, 2019 11:11:26 GMT -5
Why in the world would US citizens live there? It IS absolutely devastating to hear about this but on the other hand, what in the hell were the parents thinking? They put their children in harm's way and paid the ultimate price. I get that at one time it might have been a safe area but it hasn't been for a long time. Why would you keep your family there?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 11, 2019 11:13:43 GMT -5
Why in the world would US citizens live there? It IS absolutely devastating to hear about this but on the other hand, what in the hell were the parents thinking? They put their children in harm's way and paid the ultimate price. I get that at one time it might have been a safe area but it hasn't been for a long time. Why would you keep your family there? Some of them still practice pologamy. Can't do that in the U.S. And Mexico isn't going to get involved with them over that.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,355
|
Post by Tennesseer on Nov 11, 2019 13:26:38 GMT -5
The Mexican cartels exist because of American demand for their product, drugs. FACT. The Mexican cartels are awash in guns in no small part due to lax American gun laws. FACT. The Mexican cartels are running rampant in large part because of the failure of the Mexican government to control their territory. FACT. A couple of linked articles here and the next two posts. Mormon Massacre in Mexico May Be Tied to Gang War, Officials SayMEXICO CITY — A conflict between two criminal groups fighting for control of a region in northern Mexico is a focus of the authorities in their investigation into the massacre of nine members of a Mormon family, officials said Wednesday. At a news conference on Wednesday, Mexican government officials offered few new details about the ambush and its motivations, saying that the investigation was continuing. But they determined that the ammunition used in the attack were .223 caliber cartridges manufactured in the United States by Remington and associated with AR-15 and M16 rifles. Some 200,000 American guns cross the border into Mexico illegally each year, according to some estimates, landing in the hands of the criminal organizations that fight to control the multibillion drug trade to the United States and helping fuel much of the violence overwhelming Mexico. Mexico has been lobbying the United States for more than a decade to stop the flow. Complete article here: Mormon Massacre in Mexico May Be Tied to Gang War, Officials SayThe next two posts are articles and snippets are from the New York Times. The NYT has a pay wall so some of you might not be able to read the complete article.
|
|