justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 10:26:02 GMT -5
As much as I hate the NCAA's rules and exploitation of athletes, if schools have to share the profits of the big sports, that money will come from elsewhere. More tuition increases? More student loan debt spread over an entire generation. All because we love a guy who is good with balls. Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 2, 2019 10:32:31 GMT -5
As much as I hate the NCAA's rules and exploitation of athletes, if schools have to share the profits of the big sports, that money will come from elsewhere. More tuition increases? More student loan debt spread over an entire generation. All because we love a guy who is good with balls. Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league. NBA, too.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 10:38:35 GMT -5
As much as I hate the NCAA's rules and exploitation of athletes, if schools have to share the profits of the big sports, that money will come from elsewhere. More tuition increases? More student loan debt spread over an entire generation. All because we love a guy who is good with balls. Fortunately, the new rule in CA which is driving most of this discussion isn't actually sharing any profits. It's just letting kids go out and make money off their own likeness for endorsement deals on their own.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 11:21:25 GMT -5
Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league. NBA, too. They don't use it quite as exclusively as the NFL does. The NBA currently has a 1 and done rule which they're removing at some point because it's silly to have all these players play just one year in college to enter the draft (and it's a relatively new rule anyways - LeBron and others went in right after high school). They also started up a minor league almost 2 decades ago (base pay is $35k for 5 month season). So basketball players have options to earn money earlier. (And that's not include the leagues abroad who have even less rules regarding age.) The NFL requires you to be 3 years out of high school to enter the draft and has no minor league team. There's essentially no way for you to be an NFL player without playing college ball. And basically no way to make any money playing until you're an NFL player. (Is arena football even a thing anymore?)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 11:24:49 GMT -5
Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league. NBA, too. The NBA has their own minors, the G-League. They definitely benefit from having the college basketball system, just not solely reliant on it like the NFL is. The recently defunct AAFL was really trying to get the NFL to buy into them a la the NBA G league and the NFL wanted nothing to do with them. The XFL starting in 2020 may have a chance of finally become that league because Vince McMahon is pumping a ton of money into it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 11:27:41 GMT -5
They don't use it quite as exclusively as the NFL does. The NBA currently has a 1 and done rule which they're removing at some point because it's silly to have all these players play just one year in college to enter the draft (and it's a relatively new rule anyways - LeBron and others went in right after high school). They also started up a minor league almost 2 decades ago (base pay is $35k for 5 month season). So basketball players have options to earn money earlier. (And that's not include the leagues abroad who have even less rules regarding age.) The NFL requires you to be 3 years out of high school to enter the draft and has no minor league team. There's essentially no way for you to be an NFL player without playing college ball. And basically no way to make any money playing until you're an NFL player. (Is arena football even a thing anymore?) You beat me to it, Arena football is essentially on life support with only 6 teams in the 2019 season. I don't think there were a ton of players that made the jump to the NFL, Kurt Warner the notable exception.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 11:39:24 GMT -5
They don't use it quite as exclusively as the NFL does. The NBA currently has a 1 and done rule which they're removing at some point because it's silly to have all these players play just one year in college to enter the draft (and it's a relatively new rule anyways - LeBron and others went in right after high school). They also started up a minor league almost 2 decades ago (base pay is $35k for 5 month season). So basketball players have options to earn money earlier. (And that's not include the leagues abroad who have even less rules regarding age.) The NFL requires you to be 3 years out of high school to enter the draft and has no minor league team. There's essentially no way for you to be an NFL player without playing college ball. And basically no way to make any money playing until you're an NFL player. (Is arena football even a thing anymore?) Arena football is still a thing, but the luster has worn off and it's no longer "new" and exciting as an alternative. I do think the difference between the NBA and NFL is this: The NBA had no rule for going to college, and they ended up drafting a ton of HS players who weren't actually good. They basically made the collegiate rule because the NBA teams were poor at evaluating talent and basically enacted the rule to save bad NBA decision-makers from themselves. With the NFL, I think the rule makes slightly more sense...because there simply aren't a lot of 18 year olds ready to physically compete with NFL players. I'm not sure it needs to be 3 years, but I do think the NFL rule of 3 years is more about the physical requirements of the NFL and opportunity for serious injury as opposed to the NBA. Personally, I also haven't seen a lot of football players trying to make a case they should be able to go straight from HS to the NFL, because they understand they're going to get seriously hurt if they did. I do think it could move to 2 years pretty reasonably though.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 11:56:03 GMT -5
They don't use it quite as exclusively as the NFL does. The NBA currently has a 1 and done rule which they're removing at some point because it's silly to have all these players play just one year in college to enter the draft (and it's a relatively new rule anyways - LeBron and others went in right after high school). They also started up a minor league almost 2 decades ago (base pay is $35k for 5 month season). So basketball players have options to earn money earlier. (And that's not include the leagues abroad who have even less rules regarding age.) The NFL requires you to be 3 years out of high school to enter the draft and has no minor league team. There's essentially no way for you to be an NFL player without playing college ball. And basically no way to make any money playing until you're an NFL player. (Is arena football even a thing anymore?) Arena football is still a thing, but the luster has worn off and it's no longer "new" and exciting as an alternative. I do think the difference between the NBA and NFL is this: The NBA had no rule for going to college, and they ended up drafting a ton of HS players who weren't actually good. They basically made the collegiate rule because the NBA teams were poor at evaluating talent and basically enacted the rule to save bad NBA decision-makers from themselves. With the NFL, I think the rule makes slightly more sense...because there simply aren't a lot of 18 year olds ready to physically compete with NFL players. I'm not sure it needs to be 3 years, but I do think the NFL rule of 3 years is more about the physical requirements of the NFL and opportunity for serious injury as opposed to the NBA. Personally, I also haven't seen a lot of football players trying to make a case they should be able to go straight from HS to the NFL, because they understand they're going to get seriously hurt if they did. I do think it could move to 2 years pretty reasonably though. I don't necessarily think they should go straight from HS either. (And I think even the NBA getting from HS has the problems you mention - it's easy to stand out when your teammates and opponents are selected based on geography not talent.) But the existence of the rule necessitates players to play somewhere other than the NFL for 3 years. So the rule makes college ball its minor league/development league by defacto yet pushes all the costs onto the colleges and the players in that 3 year limbo. There's no other path there. Has any NFL player not played college ball ever? While it's not the norm, it's not unusual for NBA players to have not played in the NCAA. I have no idea on the stats on it, but I know they exist in the league because my favorite player (though I'm not even sure his stats are that great ) is from France and never played NCAA ball. I'm sure there's others too.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 12:16:29 GMT -5
Arena football is still a thing, but the luster has worn off and it's no longer "new" and exciting as an alternative. I do think the difference between the NBA and NFL is this: The NBA had no rule for going to college, and they ended up drafting a ton of HS players who weren't actually good. They basically made the collegiate rule because the NBA teams were poor at evaluating talent and basically enacted the rule to save bad NBA decision-makers from themselves. With the NFL, I think the rule makes slightly more sense...because there simply aren't a lot of 18 year olds ready to physically compete with NFL players. I'm not sure it needs to be 3 years, but I do think the NFL rule of 3 years is more about the physical requirements of the NFL and opportunity for serious injury as opposed to the NBA. Personally, I also haven't seen a lot of football players trying to make a case they should be able to go straight from HS to the NFL, because they understand they're going to get seriously hurt if they did. I do think it could move to 2 years pretty reasonably though. I don't necessarily think they should go straight from HS either. (And I think even the NBA getting from HS has the problems you mention - it's easy to stand out when your teammates and opponents are selected based on geography not talent.) But the existence of the rule necessitates players to play somewhere other than the NFL for 3 years. So the rule makes college ball its minor league/development league by defacto yet pushes all the costs onto the colleges and the players in that 3 year limbo. There's no other path there. Has any NFL player not played college ball ever? While it's not the norm, it's not unusual for NBA players to have not played in the NCAA. I have no idea on the stats on it, but I know they exist in the league because my favorite player (though I'm not even sure his stats are that great ) is from France and never played NCAA ball. I'm sure there's others too. Lots of international players don't play college ball...part of the problem with comparison to NFL is there just isn't that robust international presence. There are some NFL players, or have been some NFL players, who didn't play in college. I'm struggling to think of any who weren't placekickers or punters though...I think some guy from Australian Rugby or something tried to play receiver maybe but I don't recollect if he even made the team. It's certainly limited in the NFL since it involves converting a non-football athlete into football. As much as I dislike the AAU system in basketball...it does mitigate a lot of the previous issues of measuring players only based on different competition. These days AAU is essentially the minor league system of college, and for top players almost always takes priority over the HS teams which as become much less important to players. So with AAU, you do get to see the best players play against a bunch of the best players pretty consistently for several years before they ever turn 18. I'm really hoping your favorite player is Rudy Gobert...and not Nicolas Batum (or maybe it's a more obscure player I can't think of from France).
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 12:26:49 GMT -5
I don't necessarily think they should go straight from HS either. (And I think even the NBA getting from HS has the problems you mention - it's easy to stand out when your teammates and opponents are selected based on geography not talent.) But the existence of the rule necessitates players to play somewhere other than the NFL for 3 years. So the rule makes college ball its minor league/development league by defacto yet pushes all the costs onto the colleges and the players in that 3 year limbo. There's no other path there. Has any NFL player not played college ball ever? While it's not the norm, it's not unusual for NBA players to have not played in the NCAA. I have no idea on the stats on it, but I know they exist in the league because my favorite player (though I'm not even sure his stats are that great ) is from France and never played NCAA ball. I'm sure there's others too. Lots of international players don't play college ball...part of the problem with comparison to NFL is there just isn't that robust international presence. There are some NFL players, or have been some NFL players, who didn't play in college. I'm struggling to think of any who weren't placekickers or punters though...I think some guy from Australian Rugby or something tried to play receiver maybe but I don't recollect if he even made the team. It's certainly limited in the NFL since it involves converting a non-football athlete into football. As much as I dislike the AAU system in basketball...it does mitigate a lot of the previous issues of measuring players only based on different competition. These days AAU is essentially the minor league system of college, and for top players almost always takes priority over the HS teams which as become much less important to players. So with AAU, you do get to see the best players play against a bunch of the best players pretty consistently for several years before they ever turn 18. I'm really hoping your favorite player is Rudy Gobert...and not Nicolas Batum (or maybe it's a more obscure player I can't think of from France). Neither. Evan Fournier. He's on the Magic so that might be obscure lol
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 12:32:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I've heard of him but I don't see a lot of Orlando Magic basketball on national television. I also probably couldn't have picked him out as definitely not having gone to college even though I knew he was French (and honestly I only knew he was French because I saw a lot of FIBA World Cup this year).
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 12:39:39 GMT -5
Magic is the local team so if I ever have a fave player it's usually one of them by default. But because they're my home team I'm often saying "I give up!!" and not watch basketball. I only know because I happened to look him up after I went "oooh pretty" after seeing him first play 3+ years ago and realized how young he was.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 2, 2019 12:56:57 GMT -5
Lots of international players don't play college ball...part of the problem with comparison to NFL is there just isn't that robust international presence.
This. It never ceases to amaze me just how much higher education in the US is focused on athletics. In other countries, university is for learning, not throwing a ball around.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Oct 2, 2019 13:06:19 GMT -5
Roughly 0.6% of individuals enrolled in college in the US are participating in NCAA sports. The vast majority of college attendees aren't there on an athletic scholarship, playing college sports or trying to play college sports.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 2, 2019 13:08:59 GMT -5
Roughly 0.6% of individuals enrolled in college in the US are participating in NCAA sports. The vast majority of college attendees aren't there on an athletic scholarship, playing college sports or trying to play college sports. ....and yet, I keep hearing about college ball 100% of the time.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Oct 2, 2019 13:18:08 GMT -5
Hearing about college ball and stating "just how much higher education in the US is focused on athletics" are two different things. Plenty of fans including college students, college graduates and people who never went to college follow collegiate sports. The vast majority of college athletes aren't going to make a career out of it. Aside from those who go pro early which is a small percentage out of the small percentage that go pro the rest have the opportunity to finish out their degree. Even some of those who go pro before graduating end up finishing up their degree later. There's no denying there's big money involved for some of the sports and particularly at some of the schools that are known for football/basketball but the majority of Americans who go to college aren't focused on college sports.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 13:33:27 GMT -5
Lots of international players don't play college ball...part of the problem with comparison to NFL is there just isn't that robust international presence.
This. It never ceases to amaze me just how much higher education in the US is focused on athletics. In other countries, university is for learning, not throwing a ball around. And in other countries, if you want to throw the ball around, you simply skip the education. Is that better or worse? I'm sure lots of athletes think it's better...you're 14, you can just go be a professional athlete...I'm not sure it's a great comparison though. I'm also not sure what makes you think that higher education in the US is focused on athletics. Higher education in the US has very little to do with athletics...but of course you're going to HEAR more about the fun, entertainment side when people are discussing fun and entertainment. Nobody wants to hear me talk about my Finance 351 syllabus in social situations. I see no difference if a group of people wants to talk about Man U, they aren't talking about education. They talk about Man U, I want to talk about Clemson. How is it any different? I literally never hear anyone from any culture drone on and on about their university that had no athletics...nobody cares to hear about discussions of university because unless you went there, nobody really cares to hear about specific schools because it's not generally that interesting. Don't confuse higher education with athletics as having any connection other than a convenient platform of gathering fan bases.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 2, 2019 13:45:07 GMT -5
And in other countries, if you want to throw the ball around, you simply skip the education.
Why would they skip the education? College is MUCH more affordable or even free, in many other countries. College sports is a huge money-maker in the US. Not so in other countries.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 13:53:34 GMT -5
And in other countries, if you want to throw the ball around, you simply skip the education. Why would they skip the education? College is MUCH more affordable or even free, in many other countries. College sports is a huge money-maker in the US. Not so in other countries. Why would they skip the education? Because they have a full time job as a professional athlete. And yes, college sports is not a huge moneymaker in other countries, because other countries just let their high school aged kids become professional athletes and skip out on the education altogether. College sports is not much different than major soccer programs who have academies for younger players. Whether you assemble a fan base around a university or a geographical area doesn't ultimately make much difference. The real difference internationally is that their minor leagues don't have an educational component to them. It's much more free market in other countries that way...but the impact on education either way is minimal at best. It's like saying "the guys at work always wanna talk about the company softball team during lunch"...that doesn't mean the company softball team is anything other than a tangentially related grouping compared to the actual company.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 14:00:05 GMT -5
We should also be clear about how much revenue athletic departments actually bring in (ignoring their expenses, JUST revenue). The highest revenue schools bring in less than what many mid-sized companies do in revenue.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 2, 2019 14:09:54 GMT -5
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 2, 2019 14:16:37 GMT -5
Those would be more interesting links if either of them actually said that past "I think this" and had any kind of empirical data behind it. I suppose international schools may not teach about the scientific method and sound data collection though. But let's say it's totally true...how does that contribute in any way to what you're saying? It actually hurts your argument. You're trying to make this huge connection between education and athletics at the college level, we're saying it doesn't actually exist...and then you're posting links claiming to support OUR point and refute your own. College sports have little to no relation to actual education. It's a convenient way to muster a fan base. Thank you for supporting my entire point I guess? You're the one who is trying to draw strong connections between the two.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 2, 2019 14:17:31 GMT -5
My fave bball player mentioned above went into a minor league in France when he was 17.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 3, 2019 21:38:02 GMT -5
As much as I hate the NCAA's rules and exploitation of athletes, if schools have to share the profits of the big sports, that money will come from elsewhere. More tuition increases? More student loan debt spread over an entire generation. All because we love a guy who is good with balls. Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league. They do get a cut- most of them attend college for free. That's a helluva stipend these days.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 3, 2019 22:01:21 GMT -5
Or maybe make the NFL finally pay for it's minor league. They do get a cut- most of them attend college for free. That's a helluva stipend these days. It's a pittance compared to the money universities are making off their labor.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 4, 2019 6:14:08 GMT -5
They do get a cut- most of them attend college for free. That's a helluva stipend these days. It's a pittance compared to the money universities are making off their labor. Maybe. That calculation could get pretty tricky.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 4, 2019 7:43:55 GMT -5
They do get a cut- most of them attend college for free. That's a helluva stipend these days. It's a pittance compared to the money universities are making off their labor. Is it? What % of the profits do you think is reasonable? I think the key question would be whether people feel it would be ok to simply get rid of other sports to accommodate paying athletes from profit-producing sports? And that likely includes eliminating a LOT of female sports that have traditionally existed because they have to match the # of male athletes on a football team. Do we only pay players who actually make money for the universities off their labor? What do we do with all the players who cost the university money?
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 4, 2019 10:35:32 GMT -5
It's a pittance compared to the money universities are making off their labor. Is it? What % of the profits do you think is reasonable? I think the key question would be whether people feel it would be ok to simply get rid of other sports to accommodate paying athletes from profit-producing sports? And that likely includes eliminating a LOT of female sports that have traditionally existed because they have to match the # of male athletes on a football team. Do we only pay players who actually make money for the universities off their labor? What do we do with all the players who cost the university money? Well crap, I had a long post and gremlins ate it when it posted, lemme try again. NFL teams spend 55% of their revenue on players pay. The average NCAA college football team has $32M in revenue. Using the NFL percentages, that would be $17.6M. If the college teams have 100 players, that's on average 176,000 per player. A full ride is a fraction of that - which was behind my reply of them being "paid" a pittance to Paul's comment saying they should just shut up and be happy. (And considering a lot of schools can offer their employees AND their children free tuition, it doesn't cost the school full sticker price to give the free rides.) Even the MLB and NHL manage to figure out a way for their C squad to get paid without the huge broadcasting deals college football has, so it's not an impossible feat - and they have league minimums I would think a few of em probably aren't worth the min but the team needs #s but I could be wrong. That said, I do understand how in the current structure it would be hard figure out pay (but I would say the % that the NFL pays would be reasonable if we were going down that road). I also understand that it's further complicated by the fact that schools use that money to pay for all the other college sports (the next 35 sports combined make what the football program does) and that operating the football team as a minor league would gut those other programs. With 100 players on the team, a huge portion of them likely come out ahead with the full ride (though only 85 on a team get that, so there's a small number of players that get NOTHING from playing ball, which considering the known long-term health implications I think it's fucked up they get nothing). I'm solidly with the California rule as a way to mitigate this - let the stand out players cut endorsement deals, let them profit off their social media. (Though I still think it's messed up that the NFL essentially gets their own minor league for $0)
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 4, 2019 11:05:13 GMT -5
The NFL gets their own minor league for $0...college sports gets their own minor league for $0 with high school and AAU programs. That's generally how it's going to work when you keep moving up the ranks though. Heck even with the MLB & NHL, all you're doing is changing some of the order. The MLB has a minor league system, but that minor league system gets HS sports for free. At some point, all of these groups get the step before them for free...it's simply a question of where in the process they take over ownership of the player's rights. If the NFL created a minor league (basically their current practice teams) and still said that you had to have 3 years out of HS to join, it would be no different. Baseball lets some kids join straight from HS, but then if you go to college a year you have to stay ~3, it's not exactly free market there.
Heck, you read some stories about minor league baseball and it sounds like a lot of them would be better off if they simply got free room/board/and the decent travel that college football teams get. That's to say nothing of tuition...just the free room, board, travel, clothes, etc that college athletes get. From the professional league perspective, yeah, MLB is paying for it and NFL isn't, but the overall athlete experience sounds significantly worse in MLB minor leagues than what a decent college football program has (and to your point about long term health implications, I shudder to think what the low pay and health concerns would be for an actual NFL minor league).
There are players who get nothing because they aren't on scholarship...but those players also basically generate nothing in terms of revenue as a whole.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 4, 2019 11:21:39 GMT -5
I had one sentence about the other major leagues paying for their minor leagues and one about the NFL getting it for free and you glommed onto that and gave a two paragraph response about only that?
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