OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 10:09:13 GMT -5
cognitive dissonance, Another merit badge, right up there with Deplorables!! let's put it this way, if there was as much discussing about police miscarriages of justice, as there complaints about Trump. The police gunning down unarmed people, would disappear over night. But for some reason the General population is Ok with the police shooting people that have little or nothing! A quick point , the Wichita KS man that stepped out onto his porch to see what all the flashing light were, dead in 10 seconds,, and no one, repeat no one accountable.
Right. I agree with you about the problems with police overreach and the current state of increasing militarization and zero accountability. So do many people. Most of them on the left. Yet you continue to support Trump, who has shown that he's willing to increase the militarization, blindly support police at the expense of individual liberties, and create entire shadow police forces with no accountability or oversight in the form of border patrol and ICE. If you can explain to me how that ISNT an example of cognitive dissonance, I'd appreciate it. I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 22, 2019 10:24:56 GMT -5
I know Bills. Never sure what you "know". I respond to the words I see on my screen.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 22, 2019 10:42:46 GMT -5
you mean his bonespur may have failed after all?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 10:46:20 GMT -5
I know Bills. Never sure what you "know". I respond to the words I see on my screen. Sorry bills I am really bad about using the emoticons. I will try a little at least between you and I.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 22, 2019 10:48:05 GMT -5
My husband just cannot believe what is happening, neither of us can. He said for a president to even voice keeping people in basically "jail" indefinitely is beyond anything he can believe. Neither of us can believe that the people of this country are not up in arms over it and all the idiotic stuff this guy is doing. We are beyond appalled at what he is doing. We both think the republican party has sold out. I think the Russians have compromised the whole bunch in congress. How in gods name could they be lock step with this idiot and mcconnell. We are in dire straits and how can we get out of it. I thought our constitution would protect us from such as this. But I guess it did not foresee a president that is power hungry and crazy and a leader of the senate that would sell out. Who knew this could or would happen? We really thought our leaders were patriots, who knew this could happen? "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Martin Niemöller
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Aug 22, 2019 10:56:46 GMT -5
Right. I agree with you about the problems with police overreach and the current state of increasing militarization and zero accountability. So do many people. Most of them on the left. Yet you continue to support Trump, who has shown that he's willing to increase the militarization, blindly support police at the expense of individual liberties, and create entire shadow police forces with no accountability or oversight in the form of border patrol and ICE. If you can explain to me how that ISNT an example of cognitive dissonance, I'd appreciate it. I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
I'm sorry, I don't follow all of your posts. If it's not too much trouble to repeat, what gains do you agree with?
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Aug 22, 2019 10:59:54 GMT -5
Right. I agree with you about the problems with police overreach and the current state of increasing militarization and zero accountability. So do many people. Most of them on the left. Yet you continue to support Trump, who has shown that he's willing to increase the militarization, blindly support police at the expense of individual liberties, and create entire shadow police forces with no accountability or oversight in the form of border patrol and ICE. If you can explain to me how that ISNT an example of cognitive dissonance, I'd appreciate it. I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
How would you know? I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. Hey let’s try this, as you allegedly love to dialogue, name one area/item where Trump is vastly superior.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 22, 2019 11:13:42 GMT -5
Never sure what you "know". I respond to the words I see on my screen. Sorry bills I am really bad about using the emoticons. I will try a little at least between you and I. That will actually make little difference. I will continue to respond to the words I see on my screen.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 11:17:09 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me,
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better.
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen,
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. My little business is doing fine! I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid!
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 11:20:17 GMT -5
I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
How would you know? I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. Hey let’s try this, as you allegedly love to dialogue, name one area/item where Trump is vastly superior. 1.) people that have crossed her that have died!! yea,, like six bullets to the back of the head, worse case of suicide they ever had seen!!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 11:22:55 GMT -5
As usual, lazy and late, Starting to clean out the warehouse, I don't think I am going to renew the lease.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
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Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Aug 22, 2019 11:26:15 GMT -5
How would you know? I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. Hey let’s try this, as you allegedly love to dialogue, name one area/item where Trump is vastly superior. 1.) people that have crossed her that have died!! yea,, like six bullets to the back of the head, worse case of suicide they ever had seen!! How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer.
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hurley1980
Well-Known Member
I am all that is wrong with the world....don't get too close, I'm contagious.
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 22, 2019 12:17:02 GMT -5
I saw the actual video clip this evening. Yes, bad reference of the "Chosen one" if your religious which we know the op is not so why freaking care? And to the reference he is referring he was the one that had to do the fight with China because no freaking President in thirty years had the courage to stop China's pillaging of the world through stealing business and government secrets around the world and flood the world with cheap merchandise with virtual actual slave labor, and destroying other country's ability to produce anything at a competitive price. P.S. 280 MORE WEEKS TO GO! This is so biased its sad. If Obama had said the same thing Trump said about being the chosen one, king of Israel, etc, you will have been calling for his impeachment. Or his hanging. Seriously, the crap you say to defend Trump is so ridiculous that I seriously pity you! What happened in your life to make you this way?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 22, 2019 12:39:39 GMT -5
Right. I agree with you about the problems with police overreach and the current state of increasing militarization and zero accountability. So do many people. Most of them on the left. Yet you continue to support Trump, who has shown that he's willing to increase the militarization, blindly support police at the expense of individual liberties, and create entire shadow police forces with no accountability or oversight in the form of border patrol and ICE. If you can explain to me how that ISNT an example of cognitive dissonance, I'd appreciate it. I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
So, you'd sell out on something you hold dear something you are passionate about - for something lesser that you wanted?
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Aug 22, 2019 12:57:03 GMT -5
I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer. Actually, it is your turn - let's see one of those 'numerous areas'.
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billisonboard
Community Leader
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 22, 2019 13:01:32 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me,
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better.
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen,
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. My little business is doing fine! I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid!
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
I wish there was a call/push by you and others for the Republicans to nominate for President of the United States a person who would enact policies that you support while being a decent human being. When the person Donald Trump is supported for reelection, those supporting him are supporting the whole package. It is something they need to own.
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2019 13:06:40 GMT -5
How would you know? I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. Hey let’s try this, as you allegedly love to dialogue, name one area/item where Trump is vastly superior. 1.) people that have crossed her that have died!! yea,, like six bullets to the back of the head, worse case of suicide they ever had seen!! Although police found no evidence of foul play, several tabloids and newsletters speculated that Foster's death may have been a homicide, possibly involving the Clintons themselves.[4] Subsequent investigations by special prosecutor Robert Fiske and the Senate Banking Committee concluded that there was no evidence of a homicide. A final investigation, led by special prosecutor Kenneth Starr, also concluded that there was no evidence to support the claim that Foster was murdered. Starr's report addressed several additional questions about physical and forensic evidence that had previously fueled speculation about the case. The report established that Foster owned the handgun used in the suicide, and confirmed that the body had not been moved from its position prior to its discovery by police. The report concluded "In sum, based on all of the available evidence, which is considerable, the OIC [Office of Independent Counsel] agrees with the conclusion reached by every official entity that has examined the issue: Mr. Foster committed suicide by gunshot in Fort Marcy Park on July 20, 1993."[1]
this is the first, last, and only time I am ever going to look this up. please stop posting it as if it were some kind of fact that only the uniformed don't know.
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swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
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Post by swamp on Aug 22, 2019 14:55:44 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me,
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better.
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen,
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. My little business is doing fine! I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid!
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
My little business is doing very well too, my portfolio is up, and I paid a lot less in taxes. I still think Trump is a horrible person and incompetent.
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2019 14:58:29 GMT -5
he has little or nothing to do with your success, swamp.
no president has much to do with your success.
presidents can mess things up, but they can rarely help.
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swamp
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Don't be a fool. Call me!
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Post by swamp on Aug 22, 2019 14:59:23 GMT -5
I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer. Actually, it is your turn - let's see one of those 'numerous areas'.
environment. Environmental regs were put in place for a reason Trade. We wouldn't have a trade war that is requiring a multi million dollar bailout for the farms. foreign policy. She wouldn't be having a bromance with NK, wouldn't call the PM of Denmark nasty, and all the other foreign policy gaffes. She wouldn't be making hispanics the bogeymen. We wouldn't have kids in cages that the government had to be forced to give them personal hygiene items.
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swamp
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Don't be a fool. Call me!
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Post by swamp on Aug 22, 2019 15:00:23 GMT -5
he has little or nothing to do with your success, swamp. no president has much to do with your success. presidents can mess things up, but they can rarely help. I know. I did it all on my own. I'm just noting to OC that I can be doing well and still think Trump is a waste of flesh.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Aug 22, 2019 15:34:58 GMT -5
I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer. Actually, it is your turn - let's see one of those 'numerous areas'.
I believe OC should go first. Then you should consider supplying the names of all those businesses that you mentioned have returned. Then after my round of golf (I’m at the course) I’ll review and then respond accordingly. OC? You’re up. Let’s dialogue, dude.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Aug 22, 2019 16:05:41 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me, SO, MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. SO, MONEY AND BEING ABLE TO SHIT IN RIVERS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! SO, YOUR GUNS ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better. THIS IS HIGHLY DEBATABLE, BUT YOU'RE STILL SAYING MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen, MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE My little business is doing fine! MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid! MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. THE COURTS WHERE INCREASINGLY CONSERVATIVE JUDGES HELP ACQUIT AND SENTENCE THE POLICE WHO UNJUSTLY KILL PEOPLE? I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
My responses in caps. The root of the issue is that you don't actually care about people unjustly killed by police. You value many, many other things more.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 22, 2019 16:10:13 GMT -5
I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer. Actually, it is your turn - let's see one of those 'numerous areas'.
environment. Environmental regs were put in place for a reason Trade. We wouldn't have a trade war that is requiring a multi million dollar bailout for the farms. foreign policy. She wouldn't be having a bromance with NK, wouldn't call the PM of Denmark nasty, and all the other foreign policy gaffes. She wouldn't be making hispanics the bogeymen. We wouldn't have kids in cages that the government had to be forced to give them personal hygiene items. We wouldn't be sitting on the side lines, our thumbs up our asses, as Putin's computer hackers prepare to assault our democracy again in 2020, while our president stands in front of a microphone and states that he believes Putin over our own intelligence agencies.
We wouldn't be embarrassed to see Chelsea Clinton show up and insert herself into discussions between the heads of various countries, or watch as the whole Clinton extended family showed up at a formal dinner with the Queen of England that only Bill and Hillary had been invited to. Nor would we have to worry if Chelsea's husband is making sweet business deals due to his relationship with Hillary. In fact, I don't know the name of Chelsea Clinton's spouse, and I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't know his name, if Hillary was POTUS.
And our national debt would not be setting record high levels due to a tax grab for the rich, and market instability due to various trade wars.
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2019 16:17:20 GMT -5
I can think of numerous areas where she would have been vastly superior. How about something legit regarding the office and not some drooling right wing fever dream? Or are you too far gone? And who took 6 bullets to the head. Please be very specific with your answer. Actually, it is your turn - let's see one of those 'numerous areas'.
environment. Environmental regs were put in place for a reason Trade. We wouldn't have a trade war that is requiring a multi million dollar bailout for the farms. foreign policy. She wouldn't be having a bromance with NK, wouldn't call the PM of Denmark nasty, and all the other foreign policy gaffes. She wouldn't be making hispanics the bogeymen. We wouldn't have kids in cages that the government had to be forced to give them personal hygiene items. America First is a terrible foreign policy. it undermines our interests abroad.
for those that have a difficult time understanding this, think about your acquaintances. now, picture the most selfish, self interested, and possibly sociopathic person you know. imagine WORKING WITH THEM on any sort of mutual problem.
not going to happen, right? that's right.
our president's foreign policy is at it's very root idiotic.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Aug 22, 2019 20:51:30 GMT -5
I was making money from our rental business before he was in, I'm still making money, and hope to after the shit finally hits the fan.
OC, do you have no love for our democracy, for our country, for our way of life? Do you admire people that are moral? Do you conduct your business like trump does? Do you conduct your personal life like him? Do you approve of him calling heads of other countries nasty? Nasty because they do not want to sell part of their country? Does this make sense? Making fun of a disabled reporter, I will NEVER forget that. Ruining farmers, bankrupting them, we have worried farmers around us.
I could list more and more and more. So you approve of the way he does business, I hope you do not conduct your business in a similar manner.
How anyone like him that says he is King of Israel could not be looked at as a head case I don't know.
We are done for as a country if he is in again. And with russias help I fear he will be.
Better stock up and prep folks you are going to need it.
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 22:56:07 GMT -5
I guess it is because a see the gains in other area that I agree with, As I have posted here before, I absolutely do not agree with Trump on everything he does. Still better than Hillary!
So, you'd sell out on something you hold dear something you are passionate about - for something lesser that you wanted? What I really was for Hillary to lose, I didn't think that would happen,, but it did! I have great memories of election night , when it suddenly appeared that Trump was going to win, the reaction of the Liberal News People.
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 22:58:27 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me,
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better.
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen,
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. My little business is doing fine! I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid!
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
I wish there was a call/push by you and others for the Republicans to nominate for President of the United States a person who would enact policies that you support while being a decent human being. When the person Donald Trump is supported for reelection, those supporting him are supporting the whole package. It is something they need to own. No we don't,, we only take credit for the good parts, The bad parts are a reaction to bad acting Democrats!
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 23:00:47 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me,
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better.
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen,
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. My little business is doing fine! I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid!
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
My little business is doing very well too, my portfolio is up, and I paid a lot less in taxes. I still think Trump is a horrible person and incompetent. As usual, Wooooo Hoooooo, Trump is Making America Great Again!!!
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 22, 2019 23:07:15 GMT -5
First, tax cut, I made more, paid less than before, that directly effected me, SO, MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Rolling back un-need EPA rules, will save me money on the electric bills. SO, MONEY AND BEING ABLE TO SHIT IN RIVERS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE Another thing that is going on right now, the gun debate, requirements that only effect law biding people,
will not stop a single holdup, drive by or doubtful if the would even stop the next mass shooting! SO, YOUR GUNS ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE The tariffs, he will win that battle, in the long run it will be better. THIS IS HIGHLY DEBATABLE, BUT YOU'RE STILL SAYING MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Stock Market, I am doing great, the Liberals are praying for a recession before the election, I don't think it will happen, MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Job, if you want to work there is work for you. MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE My little business is doing fine! MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE I know they complain about wages here,,, Here is what I know, the people I pay are highly paid, for their trades, of couse they are worth every penny they are paid! MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN PEOPLE UNJUSTLY KILLED BY POLICE
Judges in the Courts, Trump is doing a great job there. THE COURTS WHERE INCREASINGLY CONSERVATIVE JUDGES HELP ACQUIT AND SENTENCE THE POLICE WHO UNJUSTLY KILL PEOPLE? I do not care for his stance on planned parenthood, He needs to back off on that. I don't like his big mouth and texting thumbs.
My responses in caps. The root of the issue is that you don't actually care about people unjustly killed by police. You value many, many other things more. Wooooo Hooooo, Money and Trump, is Making America Great Again!!!! Don't forget guns!! and the cruel NRA,, Standing up for our Second Amendment Rights,, can you believe that??
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