When giving someone something valuable costs them money

[hoops902]

So I've posted about my family here occasionally, short version is:

-Dad died
-Mom doesn't need/want any of her wealth (income from his pension and SS more than covers her rather frugal needs)
-Brother has never been good with money or with keeping houses nice (has had a couple houses, never keeps them up)
-Brother is currently renting a house from my mother where he pays rent equal to the taxes and insurance

My mom isn't able to keep living in the house she and my father built 40+ years ago.  It's a decent sized piece of property out in the country.  For various reasons it's just too much for her to keep up by herself, she refuses to pay someone else to do those things for her because she thinks she's still fine, my brother has to work too many hours at his retail job to reliably help and I just can't keep up with a full time job, 2 small kids, and my own stuff to do all the things that would be required.

The plan was always (when my dad was alive) that in 5 years from now I would be gifted their house (weird setup, almost all basement and very little first floor, dark, not conducive to what my wife wants to live in) and basically tear half of it down and rebuild it to a more "normal" house with a first floor that you can live in.  Essentially, they'd give me the land because they want it to stay in the family, and I'd build a proper house on it.  We were waiting because I want my kids out of school before taking on that big of an expense.

Now that dad is gone, the timeline is moved up.  Mom is gifting me money to help build the house now rather than waiting, and she's going to live with us when it's all done (her hobbies primarily revolve around the property, her enormous garden in the back, a greenhouse, etc).  Essentially, we're going halvsies on the new build but I will own the house when completed.

Brother had NO idea that the plan was for me to move out there in 5 years regardless, he seemed to have it in his head that maybe he'd be moving out there when dad died because his kids are older, he doesn't have a house currently of his own, etc.  Mom doesn't want that because she thinks in 5 years the house will be falling apart around him due to lack of upkeep (not to mention the fact that even if she just gave it to him, he couldn't afford the upkeep and would likely fall deep into debt).

She would like to give him a gift equivalent to what she's giving me.  But he's bad with money.  So she can go buy him a house of his own in his own name and call it "even", but paying for the upkeep, taxes, and insurance will cost him more than what he's currently paying her in rent to live in a very nice house.  So giving him a house will increase his net worth, but at the cost of likely either having him live in a eventually from neglect, or cost him MORE money than he's paying now.  I've floated the idea of just figuring out what the dollar amount is, putting it into an account, and then just paying his "rent" to herself from that money and freeing up some cash each month for him (pro is that he'd have a little more financial flexibility, con is that he'd probably spend it poorly).

Brother isn't greedy, he wouldn't put up a stink if he got nothing additional (he's already getting to live in a house much nicer than he could afford, mom just bought him all new furniture, is giving his oldest a very gently used car for his 16th worth over 20k, will likely cover his childrens' college tuition/expenses if needed, etc).  He works 60 hours/week retail and donates plasma to make ends meet today.  It's likely that no matter how much money he has, he's going to find a way to up his lifestyle to eat it all up.  

She's in a spot where she doesn't want to try to control him and his spending, but also doesn't want to give him gifts that end up making him worse off.  I've also floated the idea of giving him money earmarked to go into an IRA, which he'd be fine with, but he also just cashed out his last retirement account down to $0 when he got divorced and didn't have to.  

This is far more about the dynamic of someone who isn't great with money than a straight up financial/math question.  Any suggestions beyond "gifting" him the rent that she collects already, giving him a house, or gifting him money to put into an IRA?  She wants to do something to help his situation NOW, but wants to strike a middle ground between giving him money to waste and trying to micromanage his finances.

[haapai]

You might get some ideas by googling anything that includes the words "irresponsible child".  There's quite a bit out there about how to leave money to a kid who is bad with money and some of it may be adaptable.  Most of it appears to be advertising for trust-writers, but you might pick up an idea or two.

FWIW, if he is working 60 hours a week in retail and donating plasma to make ends meet, the odds are pretty good that your mom will outlive him.  Maybe your mom should be learning more about trusts to protect his kids from making similar mistakes with money. 

[Deleted]

Irrevocable Trust.  Costs $5-10K+ to set up from my understanding.  The Trustee (i.e. a banker) then is the bad guy and hands out the money based on how well the investment returns have done and "somewhat" prevents the money causing people to be irresponsible.

The problem is no matter what you do, society is set-up to profit off people like your brother.  So banks, stores, hard money lenders, etc. will all "buy out" his trust either by a full lump sum or via loans that directly get the payment.  

Honestly, you can't control adults, so she should either gift the money no strings attached, or keep it in her estate until she passes at which point he inherits it no strings attached.  So people do tend to mature some as they age, others never do.  

Sometimes I envy people like him, living each day to the fullest with no worries of the future.  History does have events that reset everyone to zero (think WW1 and WW2 or more currently Venezuela).  These are all examples where people that saved, lost everything anyway, so living each day to the fullest was chose the better path in life.  Alternatively, accidents and health could cause any of us to perish tomorrow, so maybe not saving is the correct way to live life.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2019 17:55:25 GMT -5 @logicnow said:

Irrevocable Trust.  Costs $5-10K+ to set up from my understanding.  The Trustee (i.e. a banker) then is the bad guy and hands out the money based on how well the investment returns have done and "somewhat" prevents the money causing people to be irresponsible.

The problem is no matter what you do, society is set-up to profit off people like your brother.  So banks, stores, hard money lenders, etc. will all "buy out" his trust either by a full lump sum or via loans that directly get the payment.  

Honestly, you can't control adults, so she should either gift the money no strings attached, or keep it in her estate until she passes at which point he inherits it no strings attached.  So people do tend to mature some as they age, others never do.  

Sometimes I envy people like him, living each day to the fullest with no worries of the future.  History does have events that reset everyone to zero (think WW1 and WW2 or more currently Venezuela).  These are all examples where people that saved, lost everything anyway, so living each day to the fullest was chose the better path in life.  Alternatively, accidents and health could cause any of us to perish tomorrow, so maybe not saving is the correct way to live life.

You need a new screen name.  Lol.  hoops902 has already had this argument with countrygirl2 about whether it was better to never have $$$ than to lose them all to something like nursing home care.  

I think she should gift him the house he currently "rents."  He can afford the taxes & insurance since that's essentially what he is paying now.  You each got a house.  Maybe it's not equal value, but house = house.

When your mom dies, the rest of the $$$ will be split 50/50, I presume.  He is an adult and can do what he wants with his part.  Your mom won't have to watch her hard-earned (or saved) money pissed away.

[CCL]

I was also thinking it might work to gift him the house he's currently living in.

I would not give him any cash for IRAs since he's likely to spend it anyway.

[CCL]

Or do the rental deal, then give him the house at some later point in time, either when she passes or when he learns to manage his $$.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2019 16:21:59 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

So I've posted about my family here occasionally, short version is:

-Dad died
-Mom doesn't need/want any of her wealth (income from his pension and SS more than covers her rather frugal needs)
-Brother has never been good with money or with keeping houses nice (has had a couple houses, never keeps them up)
-Brother is currently renting a house from my mother where he pays rent equal to the taxes and insurance
Annoying

My mom isn't able to keep living in the house she and my father built 40+ years ago.  It's a decent sized piece of property out in the country.  For various reasons it's just too much for her to keep up by herself, she refuses to pay someone else to do those things for her because she thinks she's still fine, my brother has to work too many hours at his retail job to reliably help and I just can't keep up with a full time job, 2 small kids, and my own stuff to do all the things that would be required.
Yeah, my mom refused to pay to keep up my parents' property after my dad died. 

The plan was always (when my dad was alive) that in 5 years from now I would be gifted their house (weird setup, almost all basement and very little first floor, dark, not conducive to what my wife wants to live in) and basically tear half of it down and rebuild it to a more "normal" house with a first floor that you can live in.  Essentially, they'd give me the land because they want it to stay in the family, and I'd build a proper house on it.  We were waiting because I want my kids out of school before taking on that big of an expense.

Now that dad is gone, the timeline is moved up.  Mom is gifting me money to help build the house now rather than waiting, and she's going to live with us when it's all done (her hobbies primarily revolve around the property, her enormous garden in the back, a greenhouse, etc).  Essentially, we're going halvsies on the new build but I will own the house when completed.
Um, do you want to live with your mom? Does your wife want to live with your mom?




Brother had NO idea that the plan was for me to move out there in 5 years regardless, he seemed to have it in his head that maybe he'd be moving out there when dad died because his kids are older, he doesn't have a house currently of his own, etc.  Mom doesn't want that because she thinks in 5 years the house will be falling apart around him due to lack of upkeep (not to mention the fact that even if she just gave it to him, he couldn't afford the upkeep and would likely fall deep into debt).
Uh-Oh


She would like to give him a gift equivalent to what she's giving me.  But he's bad with money.  So she can go buy him a house of his own in his own name and call it "even", but paying for the upkeep, taxes, and insurance will cost him more than what he's currently paying her in rent to live in a very nice house.  So giving him a house will increase his net worth, but at the cost of likely either having him live in a eventually from neglect, or cost him MORE money than he's paying now.  I've floated the idea of just figuring out what the dollar amount is, putting it into an account, and then just paying his "rent" to herself from that money and freeing up some cash each month for him (pro is that he'd have a little more financial flexibility, con is that he'd probably spend it poorly).

Brother isn't greedy, he wouldn't put up a stink if he got nothing additional (he's already getting to live in a house much nicer than he could afford, mom just bought him all new furniture, is giving his oldest a very gently used car for his 16th worth over 20k, will likely cover his childrens' college tuition/expenses if needed, etc).  He works 60 hours/week retail and donates plasma to make ends meet today.  It's likely that no matter how much money he has, he's going to find a way to up his lifestyle to eat it all up.  
How much has she "given" him thus far? Has she made an equivalent gifts to you or your kids? Does he get that he's already received money in the form of lower-than-market-value rent?



She's in a spot where she doesn't want to try to control him and his spending, but also doesn't want to give him gifts that end up making him worse off.  I've also floated the idea of giving him money earmarked to go into an IRA, which he'd be fine with, but he also just cashed out his last retirement account down to $0 when he got divorced and didn't have to.  

This is far more about the dynamic of someone who isn't great with money than a straight up financial/math question.  Any suggestions beyond "gifting" him the rent that she collects already, giving him a house, or gifting him money to put into an IRA?  She wants to do something to help his situation NOW, but wants to strike a middle ground between giving him money to waste and trying to micromanage his finances.

So, I didn't read responses yet. You may have already answered some of these questions. 

Can you talk her into at all paying for upkeep and thus giving nothing to you nor the brother right now?
If you don't move in with your mom, will she then let your brother move in with her?
If you don't want to move in with your mom right now, and your brother does, what happens when your mom passes? Would you still get the house/property? 
Is your brother having tantrums already regarding getting an "even share", or are you just anticipating this?

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 25, 2019 18:24:19 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Jul 25, 2019 17:55:25 GMT -5 @logicnow said:

Irrevocable Trust.  Costs $5-10K+ to set up from my understanding.  The Trustee (i.e. a banker) then is the bad guy and hands out the money based on how well the investment returns have done and "somewhat" prevents the money causing people to be irresponsible.

The problem is no matter what you do, society is set-up to profit off people like your brother.  So banks, stores, hard money lenders, etc. will all "buy out" his trust either by a full lump sum or via loans that directly get the payment.  

Honestly, you can't control adults, so she should either gift the money no strings attached, or keep it in her estate until she passes at which point he inherits it no strings attached.  So people do tend to mature some as they age, others never do.  

Sometimes I envy people like him, living each day to the fullest with no worries of the future.  History does have events that reset everyone to zero (think WW1 and WW2 or more currently Venezuela).  These are all examples where people that saved, lost everything anyway, so living each day to the fullest was chose the better path in life.  Alternatively, accidents and health could cause any of us to perish tomorrow, so maybe not saving is the correct way to live life.

You need a new screen name.  Lol.  hoops902 has already had this argument with countrygirl2 about whether it was better to never have $$$ than to lose them all to something like nursing home care.  

I think she should gift him the house he currently "rents."  He can afford the taxes & insurance since that's essentially what he is paying now.  You each got a house.  Maybe it's not equal value, but house = house.

When your mom dies, the rest of the $$$ will be split 50/50, I presume.  He is an adult and can do what he wants with his part.  Your mom won't have to watch her hard-earned (or saved) money pissed away.

I like that idea. 

[laterbloomer]

I get the impression your brother is bad with money but open to guidance. What about setting him up with a money manager that will go over his financial goals with him and set him up on an allowance?Then it isn't family that is micromanaging him. Then your mom could give him his share and not worry about it.

[tallguy]

I've floated the idea of just figuring out what the dollar amount is, putting it into an account, and then just paying his "rent" to herself from that money and freeing up some cash each month for him (pro is that he'd have a little more financial flexibility, con is that he'd probably spend it poorly).

This.  Brother gets to keep living in the house, and have increased money each month from having his rent paid from that account rather than his own income.  Mother gets to keep everything "equal" while sheltering herself from the risk of him squandering the money.  And she still has control of the money in case things need to be repaired or replaced, protecting the value of the house.    

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Maybe I am callous, but why is everyone so concerned if brother blows through stuff? He is an adult, if he blows through it, he blows through it and that is on him, and no one else to make sure his future is secure.

[resolution]

Jul 26, 2019 4:47:35 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

Maybe I am callous, but why is everyone so concerned if brother blows through stuff? He is an adult, if he blows through it, he blows through it and that is on him, and no one else to make sure his future is secure.

Because you can love someone and want them to be happy and secure, even if they are bad with money.

If she bought him an annuity, would he be content to just receive the monthly income, or would he cash it in to get the principle?

[hoops902]

Jul 25, 2019 20:35:19 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 25, 2019 16:21:59 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

So I've posted about my family here occasionally, short version is:

-Dad died
-Mom doesn't need/want any of her wealth (income from his pension and SS more than covers her rather frugal needs)
-Brother has never been good with money or with keeping houses nice (has had a couple houses, never keeps them up)
-Brother is currently renting a house from my mother where he pays rent equal to the taxes and insurance
Annoying

My mom isn't able to keep living in the house she and my father built 40+ years ago.  It's a decent sized piece of property out in the country.  For various reasons it's just too much for her to keep up by herself, she refuses to pay someone else to do those things for her because she thinks she's still fine, my brother has to work too many hours at his retail job to reliably help and I just can't keep up with a full time job, 2 small kids, and my own stuff to do all the things that would be required.
Yeah, my mom refused to pay to keep up my parents' property after my dad died. 

The plan was always (when my dad was alive) that in 5 years from now I would be gifted their house (weird setup, almost all basement and very little first floor, dark, not conducive to what my wife wants to live in) and basically tear half of it down and rebuild it to a more "normal" house with a first floor that you can live in.  Essentially, they'd give me the land because they want it to stay in the family, and I'd build a proper house on it.  We were waiting because I want my kids out of school before taking on that big of an expense.

Now that dad is gone, the timeline is moved up.  Mom is gifting me money to help build the house now rather than waiting, and she's going to live with us when it's all done (her hobbies primarily revolve around the property, her enormous garden in the back, a greenhouse, etc).  Essentially, we're going halvsies on the new build but I will own the house when completed.
Um, do you want to live with your mom? Does your wife want to live with your mom?




Brother had NO idea that the plan was for me to move out there in 5 years regardless, he seemed to have it in his head that maybe he'd be moving out there when dad died because his kids are older, he doesn't have a house currently of his own, etc.  Mom doesn't want that because she thinks in 5 years the house will be falling apart around him due to lack of upkeep (not to mention the fact that even if she just gave it to him, he couldn't afford the upkeep and would likely fall deep into debt).
Uh-Oh


She would like to give him a gift equivalent to what she's giving me.  But he's bad with money.  So she can go buy him a house of his own in his own name and call it "even", but paying for the upkeep, taxes, and insurance will cost him more than what he's currently paying her in rent to live in a very nice house.  So giving him a house will increase his net worth, but at the cost of likely either having him live in a eventually from neglect, or cost him MORE money than he's paying now.  I've floated the idea of just figuring out what the dollar amount is, putting it into an account, and then just paying his "rent" to herself from that money and freeing up some cash each month for him (pro is that he'd have a little more financial flexibility, con is that he'd probably spend it poorly).

Brother isn't greedy, he wouldn't put up a stink if he got nothing additional (he's already getting to live in a house much nicer than he could afford, mom just bought him all new furniture, is giving his oldest a very gently used car for his 16th worth over 20k, will likely cover his childrens' college tuition/expenses if needed, etc).  He works 60 hours/week retail and donates plasma to make ends meet today.  It's likely that no matter how much money he has, he's going to find a way to up his lifestyle to eat it all up.  
How much has she "given" him thus far? Has she made an equivalent gifts to you or your kids? Does he get that he's already received money in the form of lower-than-market-value rent?



She's in a spot where she doesn't want to try to control him and his spending, but also doesn't want to give him gifts that end up making him worse off.  I've also floated the idea of giving him money earmarked to go into an IRA, which he'd be fine with, but he also just cashed out his last retirement account down to $0 when he got divorced and didn't have to.  

This is far more about the dynamic of someone who isn't great with money than a straight up financial/math question.  Any suggestions beyond "gifting" him the rent that she collects already, giving him a house, or gifting him money to put into an IRA?  She wants to do something to help his situation NOW, but wants to strike a middle ground between giving him money to waste and trying to micromanage his finances.

So, I didn't read responses yet. You may have already answered some of these questions. 

Can you talk her into at all paying for upkeep and thus giving nothing to you nor the brother right now?
If you don't move in with your mom, will she then let your brother move in with her?
If you don't want to move in with your mom right now, and your brother does, what happens when your mom passes? Would you still get the house/property? 
Is your brother having tantrums already regarding getting an "even share", or are you just anticipating this?

She would let my brother move in with her, but he also has 2 kids.  He's pretty active in coaching them, etc.  He won't have the time to keep that house up (what with working 60 hours a week already, and his skillset is not geared toward it either).

My brother isn't having any tantrums.  He's super grateful mom and dad are helping him post-divorce.  I don't think he'd have a tantrum no matter what (i.e.  he's pretty ok with being poor and living paycheck to paycheck, this is more about my mom wanting to help him out and make his life a little easier).

[hoops902]

Jul 25, 2019 18:24:19 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Jul 25, 2019 17:55:25 GMT -5 @logicnow said:

Irrevocable Trust.  Costs $5-10K+ to set up from my understanding.  The Trustee (i.e. a banker) then is the bad guy and hands out the money based on how well the investment returns have done and "somewhat" prevents the money causing people to be irresponsible.

The problem is no matter what you do, society is set-up to profit off people like your brother.  So banks, stores, hard money lenders, etc. will all "buy out" his trust either by a full lump sum or via loans that directly get the payment.  

Honestly, you can't control adults, so she should either gift the money no strings attached, or keep it in her estate until she passes at which point he inherits it no strings attached.  So people do tend to mature some as they age, others never do.  

Sometimes I envy people like him, living each day to the fullest with no worries of the future.  History does have events that reset everyone to zero (think WW1 and WW2 or more currently Venezuela).  These are all examples where people that saved, lost everything anyway, so living each day to the fullest was chose the better path in life.  Alternatively, accidents and health could cause any of us to perish tomorrow, so maybe not saving is the correct way to live life.

You need a new screen name.  Lol.  hoops902 has already had this argument with countrygirl2 about whether it was better to never have $$$ than to lose them all to something like nursing home care.  

I think she should gift him the house he currently "rents."  He can afford the taxes & insurance since that's essentially what he is paying now.  You each got a house.  Maybe it's not equal value, but house = house.

When your mom dies, the rest of the $$$ will be split 50/50, I presume.  He is an adult and can do what he wants with his part.  Your mom won't have to watch her hard-earned (or saved) money pissed away.

That's the most "even" thing.  As my mom and I were talking it through though, it kept circling around to "ok, so he still lives in the same house as he does now, and now he has to pay for all the upkeep (repairs, fixing things that break, new roof, furnace, etc when it needs replacing).  And he likely won't keep up with it.  So the "gift" she gives him means he either has more monthly expenses even though he's already struggling, or the house he lives in goes downhill.  Is it really "helping him" if he ends up worse off than he currently is?  He's got some theoretical equity in a house, but no real good is going to come of it.  

[hoops902]

Jul 25, 2019 21:43:53 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I get the impression your brother is bad with money but open to guidance. What about setting him up with a money manager that will go over his financial goals with him and set him up on an allowance?Then it isn't family that is micromanaging him. Then your mom could give him his share and not worry about it.

He's not stubborn, he's open to guidance, he just doesn't have the will power to see a plan through.  The bright side is he'll tell you all this himself.  He knows he's bad with money, he has no real impulse control.  

[hoops902]

Jul 26, 2019 6:06:33 GMT -5 resolution said:

Jul 26, 2019 4:47:35 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

Maybe I am callous, but why is everyone so concerned if brother blows through stuff? He is an adult, if he blows through it, he blows through it and that is on him, and no one else to make sure his future is secure.

Because you can love someone and want them to be happy and secure, even if they are bad with money.

If she bought him an annuity, would he be content to just receive the monthly income, or would he cash it in to get the principle?

He would probably be content to just receive the monthly income for a while, but as soon as something came up who knows?  Does an annuity make sense to give him $X/month now when he's paying rent directly to my mom though?  She could basically simulate the annuity by just waiving his rent without the additional risk he'd do something dumb with the money.

The leader right now seems to be the idea that he can either keep living in his current house (which is a house my parents picked to maybe live in later in life, but which wont' happen now that dad is gone) or to find another house he likes better...have the house purchased by mom and in her name, and have her waive his rent and let him live there for free.  Then inherit that house when she passes.  

[hoops902]

Jul 25, 2019 17:35:54 GMT -5 haapai said:

You might get some ideas by googling anything that includes the words "irresponsible child".  There's quite a bit out there about how to leave money to a kid who is bad with money and some of it may be adaptable.  Most of it appears to be advertising for trust-writers, but you might pick up an idea or two.

FWIW, if he is working 60 hours a week in retail and donating plasma to make ends meet, the odds are pretty good that your mom will outlive him.  Maybe your mom should be learning more about trusts to protect his kids from making similar mistakes with money. 

That's kind of the long-term step.  Right now it's just my brother and I splitting 50/50.  She'd like to leave something to the grandkids as well, but I'm not comfortable with her just naming them in her will to get a lump sum (my kids are very young, and hence will likely still be relatively young when she dies, and her estate is likely to be 10-20 million...I don't want an 18 year old child of mine to just walk into a few million dollars, even if I currently have the best of intentions of raising a child smart with money).  Once we've settled everything for dad, and gotten her straightened out financially (she knows basically zero, they had a very "traditional" marriage where dad handled all the money) then we can dig a bit more into estate planning.

[TheHaitian]

Stupid question and off topic:

Your dad seemed to have been pretty savvy with Finances and money in general, ambitious and what not... you are on YM so basically goes without saying same for you.

But your brother is not and is comfortable
Living at poverty level. Why? Did he not go to college? Did your parent try to “launch” him?

Just speaking from a Haitian perspective, that is a parent’s worst nightmare to see their kid failing to launch or be worse off then them. Haitian parents live vicariously through their children and their children accomplishments; so a typical Haitian parent would have done everything in their power (financially or else) to prop your brother up.

But you and your parents seems to have accepted that this is “him” and that is how he will forever be. Which is a hard concept for Haitian to accept.

Ex: my stepdad wrote off his oldest son because he wanted the “gangsta” life, selling drugs and what not. Our family, stepdad, wanted nothing to do with that. So financially he has been cut off, he is not in the will, and will get nothing (my mom has made ya promise if she goes first to make sure he gets something...). My stepdad does not even acknowledge his two kids which is a big issue between my mom and Him, almost lead to divorce/separation. Still a big “issue”/elephant in the room... that they just toe around to maintain the peace.

My mom is old school and cannot imagine ever given up on a child, she still helped him out unknown to my stepdad and is involved in the kids life as much as she can without creating drama at home. Now at 30 my stepbrother recognize how he has fucked up, from private schools to living in the hood and his kids on WIC/EBT. He has tried to ask for forgiveness many times but my stepdad will have none of it.

[raeoflyte]

Jul 26, 2019 8:58:45 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Stupid question and off topic:

Your dad seemed to have been pretty savvy with Finances and money in general, ambitious and what not... you are on YM so basically goes without saying same for you.

But your brother is not and is comfortable
Living at poverty level. Why? Did he not go to college? Did your parent try to “launch” him?

Just speaking from a Haitian perspective, that is a parent’s worst nightmare to see their kid failing to launch or be worse off then them. Haitian parents live vicariously through their children and their children accomplishments; so a typical Haitian parent would have done everything in their power (financially or else) to prop your brother up.

But you and your parents seems to have accepted that this is “him” and that is how he will forever be. Which is a hard concept for Haitian to accept.

Ex: my stepdad wrote off his oldest son because he wanted the “gangsta” life, selling drugs and what not. Our family, stepdad, wanted nothing to do with that. So financially he has been cut off, he is not in the will, and will get nothing (my mom has made ya promise if she goes first to make sure he gets something...). My stepdad does not even acknowledge his two kids which is a big issue between my mom and Him, almost lead to divorce/separation. Still a big “issue”/elephant in the room... that they just toe around to maintain the peace.

My mom is old school and cannot imagine ever given up on a child, she still helped him out unknown to my stepdad and is involved in the kids life as much as she can without creating drama at home. Now at 30 my stepbrother recognize how he has fucked up, from private schools to living in the hood and his kids on WIC/EBT. He has tried to ask for forgiveness many times but my stepdad will have none of it.

The guy works 60 hours a week and is an involved parent in his kids life.  Doesn't sound like he's in debt, so he spends what he gets and then quits and isn't great at keeping up on home maintenance.  Hardly failing at life, or a parents worst nightmare imo.     

[hoops902]

Jul 26, 2019 8:58:45 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Stupid question and off topic:

Your dad seemed to have been pretty savvy with Finances and money in general, ambitious and what not... you are on YM so basically goes without saying same for you.

But your brother is not and is comfortable
Living at poverty level. Why? Did he not go to college? Did your parent try to “launch” him?

Just speaking from a Haitian perspective, that is a parent’s worst nightmare to see their kid failing to launch or be worse off then them. Haitian parents live vicariously through their children and their children accomplishments; so a typical Haitian parent would have done everything in their power (financially or else) to prop your brother up.

But you and your parents seems to have accepted that this is “him” and that is how he will forever be. Which is a hard concept for Haitian to accept.

Ex: my stepdad wrote off his oldest son because he wanted the “gangsta” life, selling drugs and what not. Our family, stepdad, wanted nothing to do with that. So financially he has been cut off, he is not in the will, and will get nothing (my mom has made ya promise if she goes first to make sure he gets something...). My stepdad does not even acknowledge his two kids which is a big issue between my mom and Him, almost lead to divorce/separation. Still a big “issue”/elephant in the room... that they just toe around to maintain the peace.

My mom is old school and cannot imagine ever given up on a child, she still helped him out unknown to my stepdad and is involved in the kids life as much as she can without creating drama at home. Now at 30 my stepbrother recognize how he has fucked up, from private schools to living in the hood and his kids on WIC/EBT. He has tried to ask for forgiveness many times but my stepdad will have none of it.

Dad was not particularly savvy with finances or money in general.  He did grow up dirt poor, and basically lived in constant financial fear, which meant he never really went into debt.  He didn't know anything about the stock market, or how to do anything financial.  He basically just moved up so high in a company that his paycheck was far more than he and my mom (both relatively frugal until later in life) could ever spend.  He actually did things financially that I would never suggest (as an example, his entire portfolio of stocks was in his own company stock, it just happened to go up over time).  

My dad made several hundred thousand per year, but they lived in the same house he built 40+ years ago when he made slightly more than minimum wage.  Even when he "splurged" some years on a new $50k truck...it didn't make much difference.  He had a high income and low expenses, but I wouldn't ever say he was savvy with finances.  My dad was very driven, primarily by "I grew up poor, I never want that again".  I was naturally frugal and was honestly just always the smartest kid in the room...I'm not nearly as ambitious as my dad was (I refuse to work a job I hate, I refuse to work hours that keep me from my kids, etc)...but when you're frugal and smart, it's not all that difficult to be fine (and I credit my wife here as well, she doesn't make much money, but she doesn't spend much money either).  My brother is of average intelligence and a spendthrift.  

My brother went to college, but it was more because he wanted to play basketball in college than anything else.  He got a marketing degree or something because it was relatively easy.  He also had a child while in college, found a job that was decent at the time working retail, and just kind of stayed there.  He's been in management before, but didn't like it, so moved back down.  His job is always trying to get him more into management with better pay (it's not like he isnt' making decent money, he's just a spendthrift, he probably made $40k last year in a MCOL area).  He is content to be the top guy who isn't in management so he can work whatever hours he wants, take off when he wants to coach basketball, etc.  

Also, regardless of his spendthrift ways, he's one of the nicest people you'd ever meet.  If he'd ever said "hey mom and dad, could you just give me a house and a car and this and that"...they probably would have.  But he'd never ask.  It's hard to pinpoint why he's VERY different from me as it relates to money, because for as long as I can remember we've just been very different.  I'm the kid who would save up every penny from working odd jobs, birthdays, etc...and just spend SO MUCH TIME thinking about whether that video game I had been saving up for was worth it.  I'd stand in front of it at the store obsessing over whether it was a good purchase to the point my mom would have to give me an ultimatum or I'd have stood there all day thinking.  If he earned $1 today, he spent $1 today.

[hoops902]

Jul 26, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jul 26, 2019 8:58:45 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Stupid question and off topic:

Your dad seemed to have been pretty savvy with Finances and money in general, ambitious and what not... you are on YM so basically goes without saying same for you.

But your brother is not and is comfortable
Living at poverty level. Why? Did he not go to college? Did your parent try to “launch” him?

Just speaking from a Haitian perspective, that is a parent’s worst nightmare to see their kid failing to launch or be worse off then them. Haitian parents live vicariously through their children and their children accomplishments; so a typical Haitian parent would have done everything in their power (financially or else) to prop your brother up.

But you and your parents seems to have accepted that this is “him” and that is how he will forever be. Which is a hard concept for Haitian to accept.

Ex: my stepdad wrote off his oldest son because he wanted the “gangsta” life, selling drugs and what not. Our family, stepdad, wanted nothing to do with that. So financially he has been cut off, he is not in the will, and will get nothing (my mom has made ya promise if she goes first to make sure he gets something...). My stepdad does not even acknowledge his two kids which is a big issue between my mom and Him, almost lead to divorce/separation. Still a big “issue”/elephant in the room... that they just toe around to maintain the peace.

My mom is old school and cannot imagine ever given up on a child, she still helped him out unknown to my stepdad and is involved in the kids life as much as she can without creating drama at home. Now at 30 my stepbrother recognize how he has fucked up, from private schools to living in the hood and his kids on WIC/EBT. He has tried to ask for forgiveness many times but my stepdad will have none of it.

The guy works 60 hours a week and is an involved parent in his kids life.  Doesn't sound like he's in debt, so he spends what he gets and then quits and isn't great at keeping up on home maintenance.  Hardly failing at life, or a parents worst nightmare imo.     

He's not in debt because he cashed in his retirement...other than his car note.  But you're dead on, he isn't a parent's worst nightmare (I get what Haitian is saying though with the attitude of different cultures)...he's a great human being...he just sucks with money.  He's gone out of his way to be involved in his ex's son's life (they each had a kid coming into the marriage) even though her kid is troubled and caused a lot of the problems leading to their divorce.  I'm sure he'll creep back into debt, because he doesn't plan ahead to anything unexpected goes on credit cards...but he's the kind of person where everyone who knows him would tell you "he's a great guy"...he's the kind of person you want to help out.

[bean29]

IMHO, if you and/or your Mother do not want to own his house and be responsible for the upkeep, I would start paying him a monthly annuity and have he be a renter in someone else's rental property. Then none of you have to worry about upkeep.

It does not sound like he is totally irresponsible and will blow the money if someone does not keep an eye on him.

[hoops902]

Jul 26, 2019 10:06:46 GMT -5 bean29 said:

IMHO, if you and/or your Mother do not want to own his house and be responsible for the upkeep, I would start paying him a monthly annuity and have he be a renter in someone else's rental property. Then none of you have to worry about upkeep.

It does not sound like he is totally irresponsible and will blow the money if someone does not keep an eye on him.

I think mom would be HAPPY to own his house and be responsible for the upkeep like she does now.  She kind of enjoys it I think because she feels comfortable that he (and his kids) will continue to live in a very nice house.  Having him rent from someone else isn't likely, it's a small town and there just aren't very nice homes for rent.  That's kind of where we don't know what to do...it's better for him if mom owns the house, it's better for her happiness if she owns the house, so how does she go about gifting him something where giving him something great like a house actually makes his current lifestyle worse?

That's the conundrum, the most straightforward answer is "give him a house", but given the current situation that very nice gift would make his housing situation worse rather than better.

He will almost definitely blow the money (most likely by upping his lifestyle slightly to eat up the additional money).  He'll probably buy a nicer car, or get a better cable package, etc.  He'll nickel and dime his way through the money until he's still saving nothing, and has nothing to really "show" for it except a nicer cable package, nicer phone, some new clothes, etc.

[TheHaitian]

Jul 26, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jul 26, 2019 8:58:45 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Stupid question and off topic:

Your dad seemed to have been pretty savvy with Finances and money in general, ambitious and what not... you are on YM so basically goes without saying same for you.

But your brother is not and is comfortable
Living at poverty level. Why? Did he not go to college? Did your parent try to “launch” him?

Just speaking from a Haitian perspective, that is a parent’s worst nightmare to see their kid failing to launch or be worse off then them. Haitian parents live vicariously through their children and their children accomplishments; so a typical Haitian parent would have done everything in their power (financially or else) to prop your brother up.

But you and your parents seems to have accepted that this is “him” and that is how he will forever be. Which is a hard concept for Haitian to accept.

Ex: my stepdad wrote off his oldest son because he wanted the “gangsta” life, selling drugs and what not. Our family, stepdad, wanted nothing to do with that. So financially he has been cut off, he is not in the will, and will get nothing (my mom has made ya promise if she goes first to make sure he gets something...). My stepdad does not even acknowledge his two kids which is a big issue between my mom and Him, almost lead to divorce/separation. Still a big “issue”/elephant in the room... that they just toe around to maintain the peace.

My mom is old school and cannot imagine ever given up on a child, she still helped him out unknown to my stepdad and is involved in the kids life as much as she can without creating drama at home. Now at 30 my stepbrother recognize how he has fucked up, from private schools to living in the hood and his kids on WIC/EBT. He has tried to ask for forgiveness many times but my stepdad will have none of it.

The guy works 60 hours a week and is an involved parent in his kids life.  Doesn't sound like he's in debt, so he spends what he gets and then quits and isn't great at keeping up on home maintenance.  Hardly failing at life, or a parents worst nightmare imo.     

Great that is your personal opinion.... but to some in many cultures what is important is the “financial” success or appearance of it.

I know Haitians aren’t the only ones, my Asian friend just send me a link of funny skit where an Asian kid tell his mom that he is an assassin for hire. She starts crying until he says he makes an insane amount of money doing it. But if she wants him too he will stop.

Suddenly she stops and say... oh ok, don’t stop. why don’t you make sure you only kill the “bad” people.

My friend from India share the same stories, same for my boss that is Indian. He is making sure his two kids go to medical school.

No ones cares if you beat your wife or you are involved in your kids life... what they see is the title and the amount of money “you seemed” to have or make...

[raeoflyte]

Jul 26, 2019 10:37:35 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Jul 26, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

The guy works 60 hours a week and is an involved parent in his kids life.  Doesn't sound like he's in debt, so he spends what he gets and then quits and isn't great at keeping up on home maintenance.  Hardly failing at life, or a parents worst nightmare imo.     

Great that is your personal opinion.... but to some in many cultures what is important is the “financial” success or appearance of it.

I know Haitians aren’t the only ones, my Asian friend just send me a link of funny skit where an Asian kid tell his mom that he is an assassin for hire. She starts crying until he says he makes an insane amount of money doing it. But if she wants him too he will stop.

Suddenly she stops and say... oh ok, don’t stop. why don’t you make sure you only kill the “bad” people.

My friend from India share the same stories, same for my boss that is Indian. He is making sure his two kids go to medical school.

No ones cares if you beat your wife or you are involved in your kids life... what they see is the title and the amount of money “you seemed” to have or make...

Keeping up with the Jones' is a global issue apparently.  And not particularly smart or flattering on anyone.  

[TheHaitian]

Jul 26, 2019 9:41:11 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 26, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

The guy works 60 hours a week and is an involved parent in his kids life.  Doesn't sound like he's in debt, so he spends what he gets and then quits and isn't great at keeping up on home maintenance.  Hardly failing at life, or a parents worst nightmare imo.     

He's not in debt because he cashed in his retirement...other than his car note.  But you're dead on, he isn't a parent's worst nightmare (I get what Haitian is saying though with the attitude of different cultures)...he's a great human being...he just sucks with money.  He's gone out of his way to be involved in his ex's son's life (they each had a kid coming into the marriage) even though her kid is troubled and caused a lot of the problems leading to their divorce.  I'm sure he'll creep back into debt, because he doesn't plan ahead to anything unexpected goes on credit cards...but he's the kind of person where everyone who knows him would tell you "he's a great guy"...he's the kind of person you want to help out.

Thank you for answering...

And I agree: Your mom remains the current landlord and in charge of upkeep and he can pay below market rent.

Maybe nice cash gifts at Christmas and or birthdays up to the IRS limit every year: 15k.

[tallguy]

Jul 26, 2019 10:19:27 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 26, 2019 10:06:46 GMT -5 bean29 said:

IMHO, if you and/or your Mother do not want to own his house and be responsible for the upkeep, I would start paying him a monthly annuity and have he be a renter in someone else's rental property. Then none of you have to worry about upkeep.

It does not sound like he is totally irresponsible and will blow the money if someone does not keep an eye on him.

I think mom would be HAPPY to own his house and be responsible for the upkeep like she does now.  She kind of enjoys it I think because she feels comfortable that he (and his kids) will continue to live in a very nice house.  Having him rent from someone else isn't likely, it's a small town and there just aren't very nice homes for rent.  That's kind of where we don't know what to do...it's better for him if mom owns the house, it's better for her happiness if she owns the house, so how does she go about gifting him something where giving him something great like a house actually makes his current lifestyle worse?

That's the conundrum, the most straightforward answer is "give him a house", but given the current situation that very nice gift would make his housing situation worse rather than better.

He will almost definitely blow the money (most likely by upping his lifestyle slightly to eat up the additional money).  He'll probably buy a nicer car, or get a better cable package, etc.  He'll nickel and dime his way through the money until he's still saving nothing, and has nothing to really "show" for it except a nicer cable package, nicer phone, some new clothes, etc.

Which is why I again say that she keeps control of the "gift" by having the account to pay his housing expenses (rent and upkeep) directly to herself instead of giving him the opportunity to blow it.  As a sweetener, she could also contribute to an IRA for him since he does have earned income.  This will also reduce his taxable income and thus his taxes.  As long as he does not cash out the money, he gets another contribution the next year.  Eventually, he will have a decent amount invested for his future.  If he cannot show the determination to not cash it out and blow it, the contributions stop.  He benefits by staying in the house with more money from his paycheck and more money for his future.  She benefits by knowing everyone is in a better position and by not having the house at risk.  Don't give him the house.  He apparently cannot handle the responsibility.    

[Deleted]

hoops902, if your mom's estate will be as large as you say, the time to do estate planning was yesterday.  People do get hit by that proverbial truck, you know.  Or they develop cognitive difficulties that make it impossible to do what is needed like set up a trust.  She really needs one, or the government will be getting a substantial portion of what your parents saved in the form of estate taxes.  Did your father not have an estate plan?  With that kind of money, that is difficult to imagine, but it isn't too late.

The trust can own the house your brother lives in.  It can provide money for maintenance and repair.  It can provide him an allowance, no annuity needed.  Why on earth would you tie up 5-10 million dollars (his share) in an annuity?

Your mother's financial advisor or lawyer will know what to do.  

[hoops902]

Jul 26, 2019 11:03:24 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

hoops902 , if your mom's estate will be as large as you say, the time to do estate planning was yesterday.  People do get hit by that proverbial truck, you know.  Or they develop cognitive difficulties that make it impossible to do what is needed like set up a trust.  She really needs one, or the government will be getting a substantial portion of what your parents saved in the form of estate taxes.  Did your father not have an estate plan?  With that kind of money, that is difficult to imagine, but it isn't too late.

The trust can own the house your brother lives in.  It can provide money for maintenance and repair.  It can provide him an allowance, no annuity needed.  Why on earth would you tie up 5-10 million dollars (his share) in an annuity?

Your mother's financial advisor or lawyer will know what to do.  

It is, but she's not in a mental state to do it right now given how recent dad's death was (and given she/we are still trying to sort out all of her finances to begin with).  If she gets hit by a truck today, she'd be fine with what she currently has (50% to me, 50% to brother).  And if something happens right NOW, it's still below the estate tax limit, but given her limited spending, it's very realistic that if she lives another 20 years it will grow beyond that.  She's between 5-10 million at the moment, but is unlikely to spend any of it in the next 10-20 years unless something dramatic happens with her health (she has a very healthy pension from my dad, and his SS is significant, and until she sells the rental houses she has good income there).

And no, dad had NO estate plan.  He had no will, no POA, nothing.  Mom has all of that now.  

Nobody was talking about tying up 5-10 million in an annuity (at least I wasn't), the question wasn't what to do with her inheritance, but what she could do to help him out NOW to better his lifestyle a bit to the tune of the approximate amount she'll be gifting me (primarily with the gift of the land, since the house thing will even out once she moves out of that house in another 5 years or so most likely and I spend the cash I WOULD have spent building at that time to put towards her house...essentially...buy her out of the house-money she spent).  We're talking $200k or so to help brother now...not his full half of the inheritance down the road.

[Tiny]

TLDR:   If he's not buying expensive crap (or alcohol/drugs) and isn't in debt up to his eyeballs - maybe having some non-family member (a financial planner or whatever they are called) go over the family's finances and who would ask the tough questions/offer advice wouldn't be such a bad plan.


How is he bad at managing money?  too many cars/toys?   or too many daily expenses (frittering of cash on hand)?  Not ambitious enough to earn more? or to move up the corporate ladder/change jobs if he's at the top of his "job class"?   

So, he's got a retail job... say $15 an hour?  At 2080 hours a year that's 31K per year - at $25 an hour is 52K per 2080 work year).     

So, lets say he's in the 50 to 60K range which is  median household income.     If he's got a wife and kids and is the sole earner....  maybe he's not so bad with money.  60K a year (for a 4 person family) doesn't go far  and houses are a never ending expense (possibly why no upkeep - no $$ or having to make choices about what "fire" to throw the money at?.    He just doesn't have alot of money... 

The people I knew who worked "60 hours a week" didn't have TIME for much of anything - much less fritting money on expenses crap (money got frittered on take out food, alcohol, and other medium expenses like a weekend away for 'relaxation'.  exhaustion is not conducieve to good decision making. or thinking about the future.) 

I'm not good with money either - but I have fairly insatiable curiosity which sent me asking questions/looking for solutions/tools what I should be doing... and then attempting to change small things (which led to big things) ... and that's what got me where I am.  I'm still not good with money... but I can consistently   half heartedly/most of the time   follow a 'plan'.    (ie I don't just give up or stop right away. but I can't always do something consistently and I don't every get "good at" or "master"  anything.  I'm always just sort of so-so/mediocre.   There's power in being mediocre.