Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 26, 2019 13:47:34 GMT -5
Letting people discharge loans in bankruptcy would solve everything. It would be a somewhat free market solution. Once banks know that the loans are subject to regular bankruptcy laws, they will limit the who, what, when and why they loan. They will stop loaning to people going to scam schools, and favor those with great results. Maybe they will start considering majors, or how many years the student has been going to school. They will cap the loans at a rate that makes sense, giving they are willing to lose a limited amount of money. If virtually unlimited loans are the cause of the cost going up, schools will start looking for ways to bring the cost down. Balance will be restored. Let's be honest, though, what bank is going to loan thousands of money to an 18 year old kid with zero assets to lien? Regardless of which major they select as a freshman, they still need to make it thorugh without dropping out (hates school, gets pregnant, wants to move, etc), changing majors, etc. It will come down to only kids that parents that have the ability or willingness to co-sign will get student loans. I was a poor kid and my mom had zero credit. I would not have been able to go to school if I couldn't get student loans. As the Financial Officer of my company I can assure you that I would never take that credit risk without some give. That "give" is the fact that you can't drop out of college and have your loans discharged.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 26, 2019 13:58:37 GMT -5
forgive me for saying so, but everyone should go to college, if for nothing more than one semester and the opportunity to take Logic And Critical Thinking.
college is for the betterment of the mind, and improving your life opportunities. if you are not cut out for Engineering, fine- go to a JC and take some trade classes. but GO.
so, no, not only the best and brightest should go. we should become a better and brighter nation by sending everyone.
If EVERYONE needs to have a semester of logic and critical thinking, maybe we should include it in the high school curriculum. Why make people pay ten thousand dollars for a single semester of a class/skill that EVERYONE needs? I'll take it one further...why aren't parents teaching their kids to be critical thinkers from the get-go...or nurturing it when they start seeing it? Seriously, some toddlers start to exhibit critical thinking skills..."Oh, if I move this chair...I can get to the counter..and then open up the cabinet with the cookies in it."
The trick becomes figuring out a way discipline/parenting in such a way encourages the critical thinking without bodily harm. But how many parents really do that? Usually it's a flat out "NO! Get down from there!" Goodness, when Act 10 was floating around...kids in my DS's grade were walking around parroting with their parents said. Literally, there were kids announcing to my son, that all state workers were lazy and good for nothing. DS and I had a nice chat to really think about that, especially give DH and I are state workers. I asked DS, do you think I'm lazy? Do you think Daddy's lazy? Do you think there's hard workers in the private sector? What about lazy workers in the private sector. That takes effort. Teaching your kid to parrot what they hear you say...no effort at all.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jul 26, 2019 14:02:18 GMT -5
I like the spirit behind the bill but I don't think it is very practical or very fair, it seems to reward those that borrowed more and were more irresponsible. I like the suggestion to be able to get rid of them through claiming bankruptcy better.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 26, 2019 14:10:51 GMT -5
Federal loans actual federal loans like Staffords and Perkins are already capped regarding the amount you can take out and interest rates.
I don't mind them not being discharable but I would like to see the cap increased it hasn't changed in decades.
I do think the private loan industry needs cut off. You want to be private then be private and take the same chances of having to eat the loan as others do.
Or you play by the federal rules.
When you can go as far as having your parents take out loans there is zero incentive to reign in costs because colleges can count on you doing anything to meet the price.
If the sky is not unlimited things will have to change. I was reading not too long ago that the tide is starting to shift and several colleges around the country are looking at closing because people aren't willing or able to leverage the farm.
That's how it should be IMO. It should be more free market than it currently is. You can't have that when they can count on predatory loan companies making sure the bucks roll in.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 26, 2019 14:22:17 GMT -5
Letting people discharge loans in bankruptcy would solve everything. It would be a somewhat free market solution. Once banks know that the loans are subject to regular bankruptcy laws, they will limit the who, what, when and why they loan. They will stop loaning to people going to scam schools, and favor those with great results. Maybe they will start considering majors, or how many years the student has been going to school. They will cap the loans at a rate that makes sense, giving they are willing to lose a limited amount of money. If virtually unlimited loans are the cause of the cost going up, schools will start looking for ways to bring the cost down. Balance will be restored. Let's be honest, though, what bank is going to loan thousands of money to an 18 year old kid with zero assets to lien? Regardless of which major they select as a freshman, they still need to make it thorugh without dropping out (hates school, gets pregnant, wants to move, etc), changing majors, etc. It will come down to only kids that parents that have the ability or willingness to co-sign will get student loans. I was a poor kid and my mom had zero credit. I would not have been able to go to school if I couldn't get student loans. As the Financial Officer of my company I can assure you that I would never take that credit risk without some give. That "give" is the fact that you can't drop out of college and have your loans discharged. Maybe we make some laws that encourage a little lending, and some bankruptcy rules that encourage payback. Maybe banks will start by lending a little to Freshman, and then seeing if their grades and progress warrant additional funding in later years. C-minus students with a traditionally low-return major would get cut off - which may be best for everyone. Students that are serious would concentrate on grades knowing future funding depends on it. The wheat and chaff will separate quickly once the risk is shared.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 15:21:27 GMT -5
forgive me for saying so, but everyone should go to college, if for nothing more than one semester and the opportunity to take Logic And Critical Thinking.
college is for the betterment of the mind, and improving your life opportunities. if you are not cut out for Engineering, fine- go to a JC and take some trade classes. but GO.
so, no, not only the best and brightest should go. we should become a better and brighter nation by sending everyone.
If EVERYONE needs to have a semester of logic and critical thinking, maybe we should include it in the high school curriculum. Why make people pay ten thousand dollars for a single semester of a class/skill that EVERYONE needs? did you not see where I said it should be tuition free?
it should be tuition free.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 15:24:32 GMT -5
If EVERYONE needs to have a semester of logic and critical thinking, maybe we should include it in the high school curriculum. Why make people pay ten thousand dollars for a single semester of a class/skill that EVERYONE needs? I'll take it one further...why aren't parents teaching their kids to be critical thinkers from the get-go...or nurturing it when they start seeing it? Seriously, some toddlers start to exhibit critical thinking skills..."Oh, if I move this chair...I can get to the counter..and then open up the cabinet with the cookies in it."
The trick becomes figuring out a way discipline/parenting in such a way encourages the critical thinking without bodily harm. But how many parents really do that? Usually it's a flat out "NO! Get down from there!" Goodness, when Act 10 was floating around...kids in my DS's grade were walking around parroting with their parents said. Literally, there were kids announcing to my son, that all state workers were lazy and good for nothing. DS and I had a nice chat to really think about that, especially give DH and I are state workers. I asked DS, do you think I'm lazy? Do you think Daddy's lazy? Do you think there's hard workers in the private sector? What about lazy workers in the private sector. That takes effort. Teaching your kid to parrot what they hear you say...no effort at all. I think everyone is getting me wrong. Logic And Critical Thinking 101 was an EXAMPLE.
take a piano class, if you like. take a class in Greek Mythology.
expand your mind. be free.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jul 26, 2019 15:36:16 GMT -5
Drop acid and go to keggars on a Thursday like we did.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 16:05:22 GMT -5
So did my DH. So did I. We both graduated in the early 80's. My out of state tuition was 800 dollars a semester my senior year of college, going to a state school, graduating in 1982.
Fast forward to my 30 year old son, he was able to get a state scholarship for tuition, we paid room and board. We ended up paying about 5000 per semester - JUST for room and board. If we also had to pay tuition, it would have cost us about 10,000 per semester. For a state school.
Yes it can be done, but it's infinitely harder due to the high cost of tuition. Each kid that decides it's too hard, or they don't want to spend that much time slogging along to get a medical degree, or don't want to take the chance of going into personal debt that he might end up not being able to pay off, is one more highly educated engineer or doctor we lose.
In the long run, countries with lots of well educated STEM people do better than countries who don't. MAGA right?
THIS/\ is the problem.
all of these old farts are saying "I paid off my debt". well...yeah. your debt was 5% of what a student today would have, FOOL.
you could afford to take chances on a Psych degree.
you are basically criticizing people for taking opportunities that YOU HAD, and then getting angry when it ends up: they're fooked.
do you have any perspective?
What were the wage or salary's then? 5% of what they are today?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 16:14:28 GMT -5
If EVERYONE needs to have a semester of logic and critical thinking, maybe we should include it in the high school curriculum. Why make people pay ten thousand dollars for a single semester of a class/skill that EVERYONE needs? did you not see where I said it should be tuition free?
it should be tuition free.
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jul 26, 2019 16:52:11 GMT -5
did you not see where I said it should be tuition free?
it should be tuition free.
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
In South America.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 18:29:23 GMT -5
Drop acid and go to keggars on a Thursday like we did. exactly. why pay taxes, get a shitty job and work until you die? go to school first, expand your mind, THEN pay taxes, get a shitty job, and die.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 18:34:58 GMT -5
did you not see where I said it should be tuition free?
it should be tuition free.
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
being 4th best in a region that has only 3 developed countries is....shitty.
so, 4th is shitty, and it is still shitty today in the Americas.
let's go to Europe instead. in 1979 Finland's schools were about where the US schools are today. 2nd rate. Let's consider THIS\/ for a second
The transformation of the Finns’ education system began some 40 years ago as the key propellent of the country’s economic recovery plan. Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world. Three years later, they led in math. By 2006, Finland was first out of 57 countries (and a few cities) in science. In the 2009 PISA scores released last year, the nation came in second in science, third in reading and sixth in math among nearly half a million students worldwide. “I’m still surprised,” said Arjariita Heikkinen, principal of a Helsinki comprehensive school. “I didn’t realize we were that good.” Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/#Ew3HTvShA3pGQWZm.99 Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @smithsonianmag on Twitter
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 26, 2019 18:39:38 GMT -5
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
we used to understand this as a nation. in fact, we tell our kids this all the time- how much better off they will be if they go to college.
but then the price of education skyrocketed, and now the lending removes most or all of the incentive.
what is the logical conclusion for young people? fuck college. and that is harmful to our long term prospects as a nation.
but clearly the right doesn't care, because they are too busy soaking up the last of our national wealth like a waterspout.
One big reason why the cost of college skyrocketed and the value of a college degree is plummeted, is because kids who really college material are not only going to college, they’re getting degrees. And because of this, a lot of jobs that used to just require a bachelors degree now require a masters. It’s just as harmful to our long-term prospects as a nation to not have enough people in skilled trades. This emphasis on college prep to the exclusion of everything else is truly idiotic.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 18:39:38 GMT -5
THIS/\ is the problem.
all of these old farts are saying "I paid off my debt". well...yeah. your debt was 5% of what a student today would have, FOOL.
you could afford to take chances on a Psych degree.
you are basically criticizing people for taking opportunities that YOU HAD, and then getting angry when it ends up: they're fooked.
do you have any perspective?
What were the wage or salary's then? 5% of what they are today? wrong. as far as the bottom 50% of the public is concerned, it is 100% of what it is today.
therefore, the RELATIVE COST of public education has gone up 300%.
and that is fine. if you are a Trump. but for the 99%, it sucks donkey Richards.
edit: just for fun, I found the income bracket that has kept up with educational inflation. care to guess what it is?
that's right. the top 1% the same folks that have driven US spending priorities during that time.
color me shocked.
what IS surprising is that there is no collective outrage about it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 18:41:51 GMT -5
we used to understand this as a nation. in fact, we tell our kids this all the time- how much better off they will be if they go to college.
but then the price of education skyrocketed, and now the lending removes most or all of the incentive.
what is the logical conclusion for young people? fuck college. and that is harmful to our long term prospects as a nation.
but clearly the right doesn't care, because they are too busy soaking up the last of our national wealth like a waterspout.
One big reason why the cost of college skyrocketed and the value of a college degree is plummeted, is because kids who really college material are not only going to college, they’re getting degrees. prove it. because that is the opposite of economic sense.
in a "free market", the cost of something is normally proportional to it's value. in other words, college should be LESS expensive today than it was 40 years ago.
so, yeah. I am thinking that it is because college funding has been deprioritized at every level. and the WHY for that has nothing to do with value. it has to do with priorities.
Finland has their priorities straight, imo. the US does not.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 26, 2019 18:53:07 GMT -5
did you not see where I said it should be tuition free?
it should be tuition free.
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
Canada heavily subsidizes its education and has "free" health care. Where is Canada today? Kicking your ass in education, and healthcare which is half the cost of yours, with similar outcomes. Your point?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:03:29 GMT -5
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
Canada heavily subsidizes its education and has "free" health care. Where is Canada today? Kicking your ass in education, and healthcare which is half the cost of yours, with similar outcomes. Your point? you are also pretty much immune to global warming (in terms of your human population, at least), and you were recently voted the best country to live in by some magazine I can't remember.
the US was once the best example of what to do in the New World. Canada passed us some time ago.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 26, 2019 19:22:24 GMT -5
Drop acid and go to keggars on a Thursday like we did. exactly. why pay taxes, get a shitty job and work until you die? go to school first, expand your mind, THEN pay taxes, get a shitty job, and die.
Again DJ you are really naïve to think that going to college has anything whatsoever to do with expanding your mind. The fact that a liberal arts degree does not result in a nimble mind, critical thinking etc. has kept me employed for the last 25 years. Though I think a good argument could be made for keeping community college free or nearly free, expanding online offerings so that kids Rural areas can get an education while living at home, and making sure the top 10% of high school students get a full academic scholarship.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 26, 2019 19:28:06 GMT -5
One big reason why the cost of college skyrocketed and the value of a college degree is plummeted, is because kids who really college material are not only going to college, they’re getting degrees. prove it. because that is the opposite of economic sense.
in a "free market", the cost of something is normally proportional to it's value. in other words, college should be LESS expensive today than it was 40 years ago.
so, yeah. I am thinking that it is because college funding has been deprioritized at every level. and the WHY for that has nothing to do with value. it has to do with priorities.
Finland has their priorities straight, imo. the US does not.
College is not a free market though DJ. Getting accredited is a difficult process. When you have more students who are less capable of applying for college, existing colleges can charge more of a premium or shift their priorities to costly thing that have nothing to do with education. And there’s also a higher proportion of suckers who can fall prey to the scam artists. When my stepdad and uncles went to college in the 40’s and 50’s, The typical animal house party animal would last semester, maybe a year, before flunking out. Today he’s getting a masters degree. When I taught college algebra class in grad school, I spent half the semester teaching elementary school arithmetic. 50 years ago, nobody would think of admitting someone to college who didn’t know how to multiply fractions.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:31:29 GMT -5
exactly. why pay taxes, get a shitty job and work until you die? go to school first, expand your mind, THEN pay taxes, get a shitty job, and die.
Again DJ you are really naïve to think that going to college has anything whatsoever to do with expanding your mind. The fact that a liberal arts degree does not result in a nimble mind, critical thinking etc. has kept me employed for the last 25 years. Though I think a good argument could be made for keeping community college free or nearly free, expanding online offerings so that kids Rural areas can get an education while living at home, and making sure the top 10% of high school students get a full academic scholarship. it sounds like we are in perfect agreement, with that one small edit, frm.
let me ask you something. we have been posting together for MANY years. do you REALLY think me naiive?
college is an opportunity to expand your mind. that is absolutely unquestionable. nobody I know who went to college came out less educated than they went in. nobody. zero. zip.
so, to claim those things are unrelated is both illogical, and verifiably false. do you want me to show you MORE evidence? because I can. all you have to do is look at level of education -vs- belief things that are either verifiably false, or have no evidence whatsoever. going to college is an assault on belief, which is ANOTHER reason why it is declining in the US. BELIEF is winning here, and REASON is dying. and yes, that latter statement is MY OPINON.
if you think I am naiive, PROVE ME WRONG. otherwise, I see no reason to not dismiss your opinion, because it is only that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:33:31 GMT -5
prove it. because that is the opposite of economic sense.
in a "free market", the cost of something is normally proportional to it's value. in other words, college should be LESS expensive today than it was 40 years ago.
so, yeah. I am thinking that it is because college funding has been deprioritized at every level. and the WHY for that has nothing to do with value. it has to do with priorities.
Finland has their priorities straight, imo. the US does not.
College is not a free market though DJ. Getting accredited is a difficult process. When you have more students who are less capable of applying for college, existing colleges can charge more of a premium, and there’s a higher proportion of suckers who can fall prey to the scam artists. again, that makes no sense.
if there are less qualified applicants, then it should reduce the workload for admissions, not increase it. that should reduce costs, since there will be fewer qualified applicants.
unless I am misunderstanding you, which I probably am, since I think you are a rational person.
edit: I never said college WAS a free market. I am saying that it is behaving the OPPOSITE WAY of a free market. which makes no sense to me.
if something is worth less, it should not cost more. that is my point. how you get around that fact is still a mystery to me.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 19:35:41 GMT -5
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
In South America. Dead assed broke, shooting it's own citizens!!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:37:55 GMT -5
Dead assed broke, shooting it's own citizens!! aren't you the same poster that makes nearly daily posts about police shooting citizens in the US?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 19:40:15 GMT -5
Let's think about this a second. In 1996 Venezuela, the third or fourth richest Country in the Americas. Free education. Free health care
Where is Venezuela today??
being 4th best in a region that has only 3 developed countries is....shitty.
so, 4th is shitty, and it is still shitty today in the Americas.
let's go to Europe instead. in 1979 Finland's schools were about where the US schools are today. 2nd rate. Let's consider THIS\/ for a second
The transformation of the Finns’ education system began some 40 years ago as the key propellent of the country’s economic recovery plan. Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world. Three years later, they led in math. By 2006, Finland was first out of 57 countries (and a few cities) in science. In the 2009 PISA scores released last year, the nation came in second in science, third in reading and sixth in math among nearly half a million students worldwide. “I’m still surprised,” said Arjariita Heikkinen, principal of a Helsinki comprehensive school. “I didn’t realize we were that good.” Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/#Ew3HTvShA3pGQWZm.99 Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @smithsonianmag on Twitter
U.S. Canada, Mexico, not that bad of Company, Were doing OK until they "Hired" a Socialist,,, Free everything,,,
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:43:20 GMT -5
being 4th best in a region that has only 3 developed countries is....shitty.
so, 4th is shitty, and it is still shitty today in the Americas.
let's go to Europe instead. in 1979 Finland's schools were about where the US schools are today. 2nd rate. Let's consider THIS\/ for a second
The transformation of the Finns’ education system began some 40 years ago as the key propellent of the country’s economic recovery plan. Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world. Three years later, they led in math. By 2006, Finland was first out of 57 countries (and a few cities) in science. In the 2009 PISA scores released last year, the nation came in second in science, third in reading and sixth in math among nearly half a million students worldwide. “I’m still surprised,” said Arjariita Heikkinen, principal of a Helsinki comprehensive school. “I didn’t realize we were that good.” Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/#Ew3HTvShA3pGQWZm.99 Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @smithsonianmag on Twitter
U.S. Canada, Mexico, not that bad of Company, Were doing OK until they "Hired" a Socialist,,, Free everything,,, Mexico is a pit, imo. Brazil is the other developed nation. recently taken over by a neo-fascist.
so, no comment about Finland?
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 19:47:48 GMT -5
Dead assed broke, shooting it's own citizens!! aren't you the same poster that makes nearly daily posts about police shooting citizens in the US?
In Venezuela,, they disarmed them first, took their guns away. It is the police and the army that is gunning down their unarmed citizens. Kinda funny, the more Socialized the Left gets,, the more they want to take the guns away,,
There is a lesson here! For any one that says, Reasonable gun laws!! Notice how that has worked in Venezuela!!
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 19:48:24 GMT -5
U.S. Canada, Mexico, not that bad of Company, Were doing OK until they "Hired" a Socialist,,, Free everything,,, Mexico is a pit, imo. Brazil is the other developed nation. recently taken over by a neo-fascist.
so, no comment about Finland?
It is not in the Americas.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Jul 26, 2019 19:49:04 GMT -5
OC,
Although the CIA and Repo-Cons have a huge wild hair up the tookus about Venezuela, I don't really give a damn. It's unendingly corrupt. Has an economy that booms and busts with oil prices. And for the life of me I have no clue why a stellar individual such as yourself wastes time even typing the word.
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 19:49:50 GMT -5
aren't you the same poster that makes nearly daily posts about police shooting citizens in the US?
In Venezuela,, they disarmed them first, took their guns away. It is the police and the army that is gunning down their unarmed citizens.
right, and here we have armed citizens who are regularly gunned down by police.
help me understand how that is better.
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