djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 24, 2019 15:25:20 GMT -5
the taxpayers and their representatives, of course. this is a democracy, at least on paper, right? Some of the most in demand majors aren't in the group you listed and they can contribute just as much to society. Would this be decided via a vote or would our elected representatives make the decision? To be honest I don't really trust many of our elected officials to make the right choice because some will give away anything and everything to buy votes. Would the qualifications be strictly merit based or could a student lose out because of their ethnicity? Would their be standardized tests all individuals take to ensure it's an even playing field and there's no inflated GPA's from nice or "helpful" teachers? I'm really not trying to be the contrarian (even though I read these questions and think they may come off as be being an ahole) but I see something like this where only certain majors are included as being a nightmare to oversee and figure out where we draw the line. I also see the wealth tax backfiring and like most things aimed at higher earners or the wealthy the middle class takes a hit. I meant to say "for example", soul. it is not really up to me to decide, anyway. I am soon to expatriate.
but for the record, y'all should sort out the "not trusting" part. it is messing with this country big time to have people in charge you don't trust.
best of luck with that.
(as an aside, I have my own agenda. I own 6 businesses, and listed what I need. if that is not what the country needs, the country should decide that)
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 24, 2019 15:26:41 GMT -5
Edit - if we had a balanced budget I could support something like this or even if they agreed to come up with the cost by making cuts elsewhere. My biggest issue is we're 22T+ in debt, running annual deficits and politicians on both sides only seem to be interested in doing things that add to the debt which involves cutting taxes (reps) for the wealthy and new taxes (dems) to fund promises. Sooner or later something has to give and I'm expecting it to be when there's no other choice rather than our politicians being proactive about it. this is a separate issue, which could be easily addressed if either party had the will to address it. but congress is pwned by various business factions that are leeching off our taxes, so I am not counting on it. I don't disagree but because of the reality of the situation I can't support new expenditures that are supposed to be addressed by new tax revenues, bond sales locally or whatever else politicians say will pay for it. We're going broke propping up a lifestyle we can't afford and unlike Trump going bk isn't an option.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 24, 2019 15:30:24 GMT -5
Some of the most in demand majors aren't in the group you listed and they can contribute just as much to society. Would this be decided via a vote or would our elected representatives make the decision? To be honest I don't really trust many of our elected officials to make the right choice because some will give away anything and everything to buy votes. Would the qualifications be strictly merit based or could a student lose out because of their ethnicity? Would their be standardized tests all individuals take to ensure it's an even playing field and there's no inflated GPA's from nice or "helpful" teachers? I'm really not trying to be the contrarian (even though I read these questions and think they may come off as be being an ahole) but I see something like this where only certain majors are included as being a nightmare to oversee and figure out where we draw the line. I also see the wealth tax backfiring and like most things aimed at higher earners or the wealthy the middle class takes a hit. I meant to say "for example", soul. it is not really up to me to decide, anyway. I am soon to expatriate.
but for the record, y'all should sort out the "not trusting" part. it is messing with this country big time to have people in charge you don't trust.
best of luck with that.
(as an aside, I have my own agenda. I own 6 businesses, and listed what I need. if that is not what the country needs, the country should decide that)
At this point I don't really think there's enough people or rather a viable option to change our course. More and more people seem to think they can vote themselves a better life and politicians on both sides use that to stay in power. If it hasn't imploded in about 20-25 years like you I'll probably be out of the country.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 24, 2019 15:35:19 GMT -5
this is a separate issue, which could be easily addressed if either party had the will to address it. but congress is pwned by various business factions that are leeching off our taxes, so I am not counting on it. I don't disagree but because of the reality of the situation I can't support new expenditures that are supposed to be addressed by new tax revenues, bond sales locally or whatever else politicians say will pay for it. We're going broke propping up a lifestyle we can't afford and unlike Trump going bk isn't an option. don't be drawn into an argument that your priorities don't matter because we are going broke. it is the fault of those in charge that we are going broke, AND that your priorities are not being met. stick to your guns, because it is better to do right by your principles on a capsized ship than to abandon them.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 24, 2019 15:36:00 GMT -5
I meant to say "for example", soul. it is not really up to me to decide, anyway. I am soon to expatriate.
but for the record, y'all should sort out the "not trusting" part. it is messing with this country big time to have people in charge you don't trust.
best of luck with that.
(as an aside, I have my own agenda. I own 6 businesses, and listed what I need. if that is not what the country needs, the country should decide that)
At this point I don't really think there's enough people or rather a viable option to change our course. More and more people seem to think they can vote themselves a better life and politicians on both sides use that to stay in power. If it hasn't imploded in about 20-25 years like you I'll probably be out of the country. ever see the film "Ants"?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 24, 2019 16:40:37 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. as the world gets more educated and we get more technical as a people, more education will indeed be required to work in ANY field.
i think you are obsessing on the forgiveness, and not the problem. jmho.
Some fields may require more education than years past. But up a lot of jobs out there are just require ever increasing credentials. For example, in the corporate world, companies routinely require a college degree for jobs that are precocious eighth grader could do. Another example is education and social work, both of which are to hard jobs that a lazy or stupid person can’t do. Yet they watered down the undergrad degrees, so that any perpetually Inebriated moron can get them. And so now, one has to get a masters degree to do a job that people did just fine with a bachelors degree. At the rate we’re going, you’re going to need a PhD to get a job fetching somebody’s coffee.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 24, 2019 19:28:09 GMT -5
yay...we reward people for making stupid decisions. How about people stop taking out loans of $50k for careers that would pay less than $100k what stupid decision? going to college, and not being able to afford it? Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 24, 2019 20:18:59 GMT -5
what stupid decision? going to college, and not being able to afford it? Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt i don't know why everyone keeps saying that.
first of all, whether a person is responsible or irresponsible is not really for us to judge. we are not impartial. i might be inclined to be more lenient than i should be, and you might be less so. it should be up to some objective third party to judge.
second, we might not be talking about very much debt. my debt, when i finally torpedoed it in 1999, was $5k.
finally, shit does happen. there should be a path for people that are in distress to get out of it for the fact of making non-malicious simple mistakes, or their own misfortune. i don't need to outline any scenarios. you are an intelligent woman. you can come up with your own.
we need to get to a place in this country where people can take chances and opportunities again. the prospect of being saddled with a lifetime of student loan debt because your job prospects dried up or were outsourced (as an example) just strikes me as morally wrong.
we have had lots of conversations like this, so i will just leave it at that. you know what i would say, anyway.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 24, 2019 20:46:41 GMT -5
It's another housing-bubble situation made worse by Congress that made student loan debt impossible to discharge via bankruptcy.
Federally backed student loans served their intended purpose- at first. They made it easier for the average person to finance college on the theory that when they graduated, they'd get a job and start paying back the loan. Most do just that.
The problem is that easy money for college was and remains inflationary- just like easy money for housing. It created an artificial demand for college because it was an easy option for people that, save for the financing, would never have gone to college in the first place. More demand- more infrastructure- more classrooms, professors, administrators- and the sudden realization that since it's not an "out of pocket", or up front expense- raising tuition resulted in very little price-resistance since the customer was no longer the student, but the lender.
The way I see it, we already have loan forgiveness for those who truly need it- it's called bankruptcy. We need to make this remedy available for people who cannot afford their student loans. For those in greatest need, chapter 7 would wipe it out, and for the rest a 13 re-org would be sufficient. That is step one.
Step two is to cap federally backed student loans at no more than a quarter of the median wage at the time of enrollment- the idea being that one couldn't borrow more than the median wage (federally backed anyway) for their entire undergrad.
Step three- limit student loans of any kind to STEM degrees- no more $200,000 in debt for a degree in Feminist Lit.
Of course- there are other things that have complicated and exacerbated this issue besides predatory lending and your basic college rip-off-- you had NAFTA and the rest of the trade regime hollowing out the industrial heart of the country and introducing global competition for jobs from countries where people can live comfortably on $6 a day, and on top of the flood-- probably in the tens of millions-- of illegal immigrants, you've got programs like the H1B visa depressing wages especially in the tech sector.
Point being- it's a complicated issue and simply transferring the debt to the taxpayer is not even a solution- let alone a good one.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 25, 2019 1:48:33 GMT -5
what stupid decision? going to college, and not being able to afford it? Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt Normally I would agree with you. But it is so common for college professors to give bad information about the employability and salaries of their programs. And I’m not even talking about the for-profit institutions. I saw these kind of shenanigans at regular colleges all the time. And yes, today students do you have the Internet. But not many 18 to 22-year-old are not aware of the fact that most college professors have no idea how the real world works and many don’t give a shit what happens to their students after graduation.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 25, 2019 8:40:10 GMT -5
Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt Normally I would agree with you. But it is so common for college professors to give bad information about the employability and salaries of their programs. And I’m not even talking about the for-profit institutions. I saw these kind of shenanigans at regular colleges all the time. And yes, today students do you have the Internet. But not many 18 to 22-year-old are not aware of the fact that most college professors have no idea how the real world works and many don’t give a shit what happens to their students after graduation. The value of a college degree, like the dream of 'home ownership', is a staple of Mainstreet, USA lore. It's so deeply ingrained that when I tell people that just 36% of the workforce has a college degree people are incredulous. Even those without a college degree somehow assume everyone has one. It's false 'social proof' that works to further pressure people into doing it. Throw in some easy financing-- which like the mortgage scam involves zero up-front or money down-- and it's easy to see how a combination of bad policy, predatory lending practices, and the outright fraudulent claims of the state-run education system's propaganda has taken so many. That being said, it's ultimately up to the individual to make an informed decision. It isn't hard to know the truth if you do the work of investigating their claims. Especially now- it's a 3 second Google search away. I was able to obtain the "moderate" budget (not including housing) for a college degree- "According to the College Board, the average cost of tuition and fees for the 2017–2018 school year was $34,740 at private colleges, $9,970 for state residents at public colleges, and $25,620 for out-of-state residents attending public universities." and the average graduate's starting salary: "In its most recent survey, the National Association of Colleges and Employers found that for 10 broad degree categories ranging from engineering to communications, 2016 graduates are projected to have an average salary of $50,556"
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 25, 2019 11:52:37 GMT -5
I worked hard and paid off my loans but don't feel the least bit slapped in the face. My life was stunted by my loans. I never defaulted or went on forbearance, but at one point my loan payments were over twenty percent of my after-tax income. The loan payments pretty much zotzed my ability to accumulate an emergency fund or fund retirement. I wouldn't wish what I experience on anyone else.
So I'm really not that upset by a proposed jubilee. What pisses me off is that this proposal does nothing at all for the next generation of borrowers. I also note that the folks who get bupkis are too young to vote.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 25, 2019 13:03:01 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. Correct. But we (humans) have been around for 200,000 years. We managed OK for the first 199,900 years w/o your "improvements". In fact, nothing on your your list was available when I was a kid - school lunches? milk the cows, fill your thermos, pick a couple apples, make a PBJ sandwich, and go to school. Reduced utilities? We didn't have indoor plumbing, the electric lights were powered by a generator. And food stamps, welfare, and section 8 had not been invented yet.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 25, 2019 13:05:20 GMT -5
I just had a horrible thought. Is it possible that the bluntness of the Sanders and Warren proposals is also a necessity? Is it possible that wonks have examined the problem of student loan debt ruining lives and decided that more targeted relief was impossible to implement?
Our student-loan record-keeping might just be shambolic enough that we don't have the capacity to identify even the most uncollectable student loan debts and write them off, hence the simplicity of the proposals.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 13:08:27 GMT -5
I just had a horrible thought. Is it possible that the bluntness of the Sanders and Warren proposals is also a necessity? Is it possible that wonks have examined the problem of student loan debt ruining lives and decided that more targeted relief was impossible to implement?
Our student-loan record-keeping might just be shambolic enough that we don't have the capacity to identify even the most uncollectable student loan debts and write them off, hence the simplicity of the proposals.
I am sure everyone remembers the S&L bailout, the car industry bailout, and the subprime bailout.
the Student Loan bailout is probably going to happen, for identical reasons.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 13:11:07 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. Correct. But we (humans) have been around for 200,000 years. We managed OK for the first 199,900 years w/o your "improvements". In fact, nothing on your your list was available when I was a kid - school lunches? milk the cows, fill your thermos, pick a couple apples, make a PBJ sandwich, and go to school. Reduced utilities? We didn't have indoor plumbing, the electric lights were powered by a generator. And food stamps, welfare, and section 8 had not been invented yet. it also didn't include farm and business subsidies, perpetual corporations with no public purpose, and massive corrupting influence of said corporations in our body politic.
do those things bother you, or does it only bother you when average citizens are helped rather than the rich?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 25, 2019 13:11:43 GMT -5
Sorry to say this, but I don't. And I'm sure that the book-keeping was better in those cases.
ETA: All I remember is a case being made that those bailouts, no matter how "undeserved" just had to be done.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 13:14:15 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 13:17:52 GMT -5
fine by me.
I was pissed that I ever had the debt. would never wish that on anyone.
edit: I would like to see a funding measure for this bill, however. edit2: I would also like it to be means tested, but it is probably too late for that. Are you saying you wouldn't want anyone to take out a student loan ? Are you saying you are unhappy with your decision to take out a student loan ? I really don't get it. It was your own decision. Other working taxpayers will now pay for the same decision ? It is a debt cancelling proposal by Warren.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 25, 2019 13:19:12 GMT -5
It's a crisis that affects different borrowers and potential borrowers quite differently and the different classes of borrowers tend to view each other with massive disdain, if they even know that the other classes exist.
That came out a lot more Marxian than intended, but I'm quite serious about how unsympathetic different groups of borrowers are to each other.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jul 25, 2019 13:33:41 GMT -5
I clicked on your link, dj, and it's ringing my BS meter.
I pretty much stopped reading here:
The average woman left her undergraduate education owing $21,619, compared with $18,880 for men. That's a difference of more than $2,700. Three years after graduating, women have paid off less than a third of their debt, while men have cleared some 40 percent of what they owe.
Paying off thirty or forty percent of the student loan balance within three years of graduation is bullshit! You don't get numbers like that on standard 10-year repayment plans and the number of folks opting for standard repayment has been dropping like a stone for years. There is something seriously f-ed about that statement.
ETA: Consolidation. That's probably how those those craptastic numbers were arrived at. The loan is technically paid off and nobody is paying attention to the loan that replaced it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 25, 2019 13:40:37 GMT -5
I'd rather the money get spent on healthcare.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 25, 2019 13:42:34 GMT -5
Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt Normally I would agree with you. But it is so common for college professors to give bad information about the employability and salaries of their programs. And I’m not even talking about the for-profit institutions. I saw these kind of shenanigans at regular colleges all the time. And yes, today students do you have the Internet. But not many 18 to 22-year-old are not aware of the fact that most college professors have no idea how the real world works and many don’t give a shit what happens to their students after graduation. I don't know if this is required nationally or just in GA but here, colleges have to do post-graduation reviews of their degree receipts and calculate the average starting salary for new graduates. For the colleges DS looked at, you could look at their website and see the percent of people who got a job within x amount of time, and what the average pay was for every degree program. May just be a state school requirement, though.
That helps students evaluate the truthfulness of the teachers - IF the students know enough to ask. DS had two college graduate parents who knew professors could blow smoke about the employ ability of their degrees. (DH got a degree in anthropology - WTF can you do with an anthropology degree that earns money? ) So we required DS to do some research. Unfortunately, kids from families who don't have college graduates wouldn't know to ask, and you're right.
IMHO there should be a mandatory HS course on finding the right career path, either voc-tech, or a degree, what the cost is to get trained for either, and what the expected pay would be. Then, figure out how you're going to pay for it. Seems like you could get a lot of retired professionals who would volunteer to come to a 1 day workshop at the HS to help kids through the process.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 25, 2019 13:49:11 GMT -5
If studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ is to be believed the outstanding debt involves ~14% of the population with an average debt under 40K, an average monthly payment under $400 and 40% of the outstanding debt is for graduate or professional degrees. If there is a bubble then one good thing about it popping is needing to re-evaluate the system, figuring out what caused the problems and fix it going forward. To me that shouldn't involve taxpayers footing the bill to wipe the slate for some people.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 25, 2019 13:56:19 GMT -5
I'd like to see what is currently put into student loans taken and given directly to the schools. People seem to forget that when they "walked up hill both ways barefoot while working two jobs" that they could, in part, do that because colleges were HEAVILY subsidized by the states.
States started cutting funding because they had no money, so colleges started looking to bring in research dollars to keep the lights on. The government started slashing funding for research which means less dollars coming in there. So colleges turned to international students in particular from China because international students pay a butt load more. Trump has done a number on student visas so there goes that.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of waste. UNMC/Nebraska Medicine created the shiny new Cancer Center with the assumption that costs would be offset by all the new researchers they would bring in. Yeah. . .
Same with the new College of Pharmacy. Yes they desperately needed a new one given the original was built in the late 70s but it's as big and grand as it is because the assumption was again they'd have enough researchers to offset overhead costs. Nope.
So examination of college expenses does need to happen. That should happen first BEFORE we start forgiving student loans because all that does is erase debt for one graduating class, there are still all the people behind them.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jul 25, 2019 14:23:02 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. I agree that Warren is pandering to a small portion of the population. So, does the Student Loan Forgiveness go to anyone who makes less than $100,000 or Households that make less than $100,000. What if you make less than $100,000 but your spouse makes $100,000 or 200,000? I think it sounds good to say anyone who makes less than $100,000 but if they really try to hash out a proposal, it will be for households making less than $100,000 or maybe even $75,000. What if you make less than $100,000 b/c you choose to work part time? Shoud other taxpayers who are working full time, assist you in paying your debt?
My DH and I have a good income, so my kids have never qualified for much in the way of student aid. Low income families get more grants and subsidized loans, now Warren's bill will aim to assist that same group of people with the part of their education that was supposed to be their responsibility, and my family will in all likely hood be left to manage without any gov't assistance.
I think I agree with the other suggestions here - lets make the cost of attending college less overall. Lets focus on majors that we deem important to the good of the Nation. Personally I think Mental Health Professionals are very important and it is an area of great need.
I also think that there is a need to teach math and basic skills to those who managed to graduate from college without the needed skills to be successful in college - lets not condemn people to a lifetime of low earnings because they were not high achievers in HS or went to a sub-par school.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 25, 2019 16:12:51 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. Correct. But we (humans) have been around for 200,000 years. We managed OK for the first 199,900 years w/o your "improvements". In fact, nothing on your your list was available when I was a kid - school lunches? milk the cows, fill your thermos, pick a couple apples, make a PBJ sandwich, and go to school. Reduced utilities? We didn't have indoor plumbing, the electric lights were powered by a generator. And food stamps, welfare, and section 8 had not been invented yet. Less than 2 percent of Americans live on farms anymore. For their kids, sure - milk the cow, pick a couple apples, make a PBJ sandwich, shit in the outhouse.
For the 80 percent of Americans who live in urban areas, I guess steal milk from the quickie mart, pry open a vending machine for snacks, crap into the storm drain?
Go back to 1870, when 74% of Americans lived in rural areas, your philosophy of everyone planting a garden, owning a pig and a cow and building themselves a log cabin would be the status quo. Kind of hard to homestead in the Walmart parking lot, though.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 20:23:06 GMT -5
fine by me.
I was pissed that I ever had the debt. would never wish that on anyone.
edit: I would like to see a funding measure for this bill, however. edit2: I would also like it to be means tested, but it is probably too late for that. Are you saying you wouldn't want anyone to take out a student loan ? I am saying I resent having to borrow money to go to a public institution.
is that clear enough?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 20:24:28 GMT -5
I clicked on your link, dj, and it's ringing my BS meter.
I pretty much stopped reading here:
The average woman left her undergraduate education owing $21,619, compared with $18,880 for men. That's a difference of more than $2,700. Three years after graduating, women have paid off less than a third of their debt, while men have cleared some 40 percent of what they owe.
Paying off thirty or forty percent of the student loan balance within three years of graduation is bullshit! You don't get numbers like that on standard 10-year repayment plans and the number of folks opting for standard repayment has been dropping like a stone for years. There is something seriously f-ed about that statement.
ETA: Consolidation. That's probably how those those craptastic numbers were arrived at. The loan is technically paid off and nobody is paying attention to the loan that replaced it.
I think the source is reasonably reliable. might want to calibrate your BS meter.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2019 20:26:00 GMT -5
Look, I am as bleeding heart liberal as they come. I am all for food stamps, section 8, welfare, school lunches, reduced utilities, etc. Why are they different? Because food, a roof over your head, and heat/cool air are pretty much a necessity to survive on this planet. Education up through high school is completely free, and anything else is not a necessity to survival. Sure, make cc free again or reduced price, but soon after, an AA/AS degree will be the same as a high school diploma. We've already seen how worthless some 4 year degrees have become just because everyone got them to say they had them (liberal arts anyone ). I think restructuring how the student loan system in this country works is a great idea, but just giving away 50K to everyone who makes less than 100K and has student loans is to me, a really stupid idea. Warren is pandering to a small portion of the voting population, and I think this is gonna hurt her in her presidential bid if she keeps this up. I agree that Warren is pandering to a small portion of the population.
the population of persons with student loans is 44M, according to the article I posted, bean. that is something like 20% of all adults.
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